I was at the end of school during the 2016 election and my closest friend in my Comp-Sci class who I’d known from 11 was in the far right pipeline; this person found Hillary absolute abhorrent, loved trump and was generally the 2016 Pepe style crypto-facist. We live in the UK too, so this is even less common than it probably was in the USA.
When school ended, I stopped speaking to this person, but a few years ago saw that she’s come out as a trans woman. I’m happy for her and not really keen to reconnect at all, but oh boy am I nosy about the timeline of her political views. I wonder if she still holds them, was struggling with internalised issues or just had a huge realisation at some point.
Liberal tolerance is such a defacto default that people who would be hard done by a white christofascist America end up signing up for it because they assume it will include the same rights and freedoms they currently enjoy.
Also every trans Trumper believes they will be the token accepted trans person in the far-right. Same as some Jews cosied up to the Nazis to extract personal privilege at the expense of snitching on their own people only to end up at the exact same end-game anyways.
For me it’s actually hard to respect someone’s political views if they haven’t tried the rest.
Which is why “cancel culture” itself is maybe not very important, but the very idea that someone has said something wrong 10 years ago and must apologize or be ostracized is dubious, because it automatically means that the person expressing it either never doubted their own views or is a hypocrite who lies about their own path to what they are, or even worse, a conformist coward. Conformists are always the worst kind of fascists and supporting mechanisms which reward conformism is the worst thing one can do.
Every worthy intelligent person I know has been all over the place in the past. Pointing out inconsistencies not by “party line” and popularity, but inside their own logic may have limited use, but that’s assuming the person judging understands that logic, and humans are complex.
FFS, Exupery’s Citadel jumps all over the place inside itself. And I don’t think Eco’s views can be characterized more precisely than “generally left”. And Tolkien - there are sometimes kindergarten-level articles triumphantly accusing him of being this or that, but again you can’t.
I’ve since moved to a very left wing city and I’ve met a lot of trans women. Mo’s have strong political views for sure, but those views are very far left wing too.
i moved away from new york in 2009 san francisco in 2019 and have lived in austin and chicago since then; this exchange is teaching me that chicago, austin and the lemmyverse trans communities are more alike then any of them are to new york or san francisco.
Idk what trans women you have met but conservative views are extremely unpopular in the entirety of the transgender community. Being alt-right would get you entirely ostracized and barred from accessing most trans communities and spaces. Queer people are significantly less likely to be conservative than cisgender heterosexual people.
I also have no clue why you describe trans women that way. “t-female-presenting people”. You can just call us trans women, or transfeminine people if you’re including feminine non-binary people as well.
Idk what trans women you have met but conservative views are extremely unpopular in the entirety of the transgender community.
i’ve had the opposite experience from living 15 years in the san francisco bay area.
Queer people are significantly less likely to be conservative than cisgender heterosexual people.
lgbtqa+ as a whole yes; but less so from the “t” part
I also have no clue why you describe trans women that way. “t-female-presenting people”. You can just call us trans women, or transfeminine people if you’re including feminine non-binary people as well.
i was corrected several times in the past when i said trans women or trans girl from trans-female-presenting people.
Trans women or trans feminine people is fine. The other way you’ve been seemingly corrected towards is reminiscent of “TIM” and “TIF” which are two transphobic terms meant to invalidate trans people.
Your little “less so from the T part” belies something of your beliefs here. You also, again, have no clue what you’re talking about. Living in a particular area does not instill in you broad understandings of the sociopolitical beliefs of some demographic. Just that the people you’ve met in that area have, in your perception, been more likely to hold those views.
Does not pan out in reality. I have a feeling I know how you’re going to respond to this. I’d love to see you prove that inkling wrong.
i’ve also heard trans feminine before; but i slapped for using trans women
You also, again, have no clue what you’re talking about. Living in a particular area does not instill in you broad understandings of the sociopolitical beliefs of some demographic.
Does not pan out in reality. I have a feeling I know how you’re going to respond to this. I’d love to see you prove that inkling wrong.
the pot calling the kettle black takes on new meaning when you take such an aggressive position against someone who is part of the same community and also when you do as i did and let your experience inform your opinion.
I think this is more of a reflection of the circles you have been in, than the trans community at large. I have never seen a trans person wanting to be called “trans-female-presenting”. That’s some shit that conservatives say, a roundabout way of denying the identity.
That’s some shit that conservatives say, a roundabout way of denying the identity.
i said the something similar and i was repeatedly assured that it was right; the fragmentation of between generations that don’t use social media and those who do seem clearly pronounced.
I think the generational thing here is whats getting people. I’m friends with an older trans woman, and she’s reffered to herself as a shemale before, which’d be a big fuckin yikes if anyone but her used that term now, she’s also religious and and leans right politically (but is starting to not because of how insane the right is getting)
It’s interesting to me that your experience is so vastly different from mine given we live in the same area (SF bay area). Most trans people I know, including myself, fall on the far left, and at significantly higher rates than the cis people I know (Queer or not). I’ve also never heard the term “t-female-presenting” before, it is completely foreign to me. I mostly hear and use “trans women” or “transfeminine”.
I wonder if there’s another demographic factor, or you are in a unique community of trans people. The people in my circle are generally 20-35, nonreligious, working class, often living paycheck to paycheck, and are actively and primarily in community with other trans people, as a support structure.
How would you describe your circle?
I wonder if there’s another demographic factor, or you are in a unique community of trans people. The people in my circle are generally 20-35, nonreligious, working class, often living paycheck to paycheck, and are actively and primarily in community with other trans people, as a support structure. How would you describe your circle?
i had a similar thought and now i think it’s because i only hung out with latinos at the time since my ex was friends w them and he was mexican. english was no one’s first language, except for i, nor were they born in the united states nor any other english speaking country so maybe there was some sort of cultural or language translation happening since reading trans-feminine-presenting sounds odd when i read it out loud.
Interesting! Most I know were either born in the US or have been in the US since they were kids, primarily communicate in english, and discovered their transness while here. You might be right with the cultural/language translation being a factor. But I’ve also seen “Transexual”, “Transgénero”, “mujer/hombre trans” used by Spanish speakers which tracks not that far from common English usage. I wonder if there’s a different distinction being made or if it’s intertwined with the particular individuals’ conservative ideology in some way.
i suspect age is a big factor too; the youngest of the trans people i used to know would have been genx-er’s and i’m assuming that the big majority were boomers since the eldest millenials would have been in their early to mid 20’s at the time (circa 2006).
all of them were born and raised somewhere else and migrated to the united states as late teenagers or young adults; so i have little doubt their conservative upbringing for those with happy enough childhoods would have had a big impact.
One of my buddies suffered from the same problem. He was left out and generally held at arms length until he was shown love, or at least understanding. He flipped almost overnight and realized how grave his mistakes were. He ended up becoming a teacher and hopes to help students before they made the same sort of mistakes he did when his teachers were shitty to him. Props to him for breaking the cycle.
He still regrets how far he pushed some people away, and the actions he took as a teen. But he is much happier now and we have mended our friendships with him.
The far right has a way of infiltrating people’s minds when they are already mentally weak. They lurk around certain communities and poach people out of them.
This is how reddit was staunchly pro Ron Paul in 2008. Myself included. I still contend that that experience was a training ground for future internet-based astroturfing.
They wind up the 20 year old virgins and turn them into incels, and from there and turn them into misogynists. As an example. Remember when /r/conspiracy was an interesting place full of lively theorizing about UFOs and Bigfoot?
They dip into the source of your emotion…whether that be depression or desire, and widen it into a giant chasm ready to take in all your hate as if that will fix everything in the world. They blame your x on y, and to fix y you gotta vote for R.
The funny thing is…this is the exact same story we are told after some idiot starts shooting up a mall. That they were targeted by extremists online. Same book, different protagonist.
Should we just admit that the rise of the far right is just a symptom of a long unaddressed mental health crisis in the US, and certain people exploiting that for their own gain, or is it too soon for that?
Should we just admit that the rise of the far right is just a symptom of a long unaddressed mental health crisis in the US, and certain people exploiting that for their own gain, or is it too soon for that?
100%. The sickness of the system comes from inequalities and gutted education. Thanks, Reagan!
I’m in an identical situation as you (also from the UK funnily enough), except I did keep in contact with her, albeit at arm’s length at first.
She’s explained to me over the years that it was internalised hatred, made worse by her family’s very outspoken views about anyone not straight and white.
When she finally had a chance to get away and start thinking things through herself, she began to accept herself and others.
She’s a lovely person to be around now, and pretty vocal in trying to help other people learn about and understand trans healthcare and mental support.
But most importantly, she’s happy.
I’d hope we were talking about the same person and it’s a small world but I think people who are targeted by extreme right views is sadly just probably common.
I was at the end of school during the 2016 election and my closest friend in my Comp-Sci class who I’d known from 11 was in the far right pipeline; this person found Hillary absolute abhorrent, loved trump and was generally the 2016 Pepe style crypto-facist. We live in the UK too, so this is even less common than it probably was in the USA.
When school ended, I stopped speaking to this person, but a few years ago saw that she’s come out as a trans woman. I’m happy for her and not really keen to reconnect at all, but oh boy am I nosy about the timeline of her political views. I wonder if she still holds them, was struggling with internalised issues or just had a huge realisation at some point.
Liberal tolerance is such a defacto default that people who would be hard done by a white christofascist America end up signing up for it because they assume it will include the same rights and freedoms they currently enjoy.
Also every trans Trumper believes they will be the token accepted trans person in the far-right. Same as some Jews cosied up to the Nazis to extract personal privilege at the expense of snitching on their own people only to end up at the exact same end-game anyways.
For me it’s actually hard to respect someone’s political views if they haven’t tried the rest.
Which is why “cancel culture” itself is maybe not very important, but the very idea that someone has said something wrong 10 years ago and must apologize or be ostracized is dubious, because it automatically means that the person expressing it either never doubted their own views or is a hypocrite who lies about their own path to what they are, or even worse, a conformist coward. Conformists are always the worst kind of fascists and supporting mechanisms which reward conformism is the worst thing one can do.
Every worthy intelligent person I know has been all over the place in the past. Pointing out inconsistencies not by “party line” and popularity, but inside their own logic may have limited use, but that’s assuming the person judging understands that logic, and humans are complex.
FFS, Exupery’s Citadel jumps all over the place inside itself. And I don’t think Eco’s views can be characterized more precisely than “generally left”. And Tolkien - there are sometimes kindergarten-level articles triumphantly accusing him of being this or that, but again you can’t.
anecdotally: t-female-presenting people tend to have conservative views; so there’s a good chance your friends views haven’t changed much.
I’ve since moved to a very left wing city and I’ve met a lot of trans women. Mo’s have strong political views for sure, but those views are very far left wing too.
i moved away from new york in 2009 san francisco in 2019 and have lived in austin and chicago since then; this exchange is teaching me that chicago, austin and the lemmyverse trans communities are more alike then any of them are to new york or san francisco.
Idk what trans women you have met but conservative views are extremely unpopular in the entirety of the transgender community. Being alt-right would get you entirely ostracized and barred from accessing most trans communities and spaces. Queer people are significantly less likely to be conservative than cisgender heterosexual people.
I also have no clue why you describe trans women that way. “t-female-presenting people”. You can just call us trans women, or transfeminine people if you’re including feminine non-binary people as well.
i’ve had the opposite experience from living 15 years in the san francisco bay area.
lgbtqa+ as a whole yes; but less so from the “t” part
i was corrected several times in the past when i said trans women or trans girl from trans-female-presenting people.
Trans women or trans feminine people is fine. The other way you’ve been seemingly corrected towards is reminiscent of “TIM” and “TIF” which are two transphobic terms meant to invalidate trans people.
Your little “less so from the T part” belies something of your beliefs here. You also, again, have no clue what you’re talking about. Living in a particular area does not instill in you broad understandings of the sociopolitical beliefs of some demographic. Just that the people you’ve met in that area have, in your perception, been more likely to hold those views.
Does not pan out in reality. I have a feeling I know how you’re going to respond to this. I’d love to see you prove that inkling wrong.
i’ve also heard trans feminine before; but i slapped for using trans women
the pot calling the kettle black takes on new meaning when you take such an aggressive position against someone who is part of the same community and also when you do as i did and let your experience inform your opinion.
What are you on about 😭
I think this is more of a reflection of the circles you have been in, than the trans community at large. I have never seen a trans person wanting to be called “trans-female-presenting”. That’s some shit that conservatives say, a roundabout way of denying the identity.
i said the something similar and i was repeatedly assured that it was right; the fragmentation of between generations that don’t use social media and those who do seem clearly pronounced.
I think the generational thing here is whats getting people. I’m friends with an older trans woman, and she’s reffered to herself as a shemale before, which’d be a big fuckin yikes if anyone but her used that term now, she’s also religious and and leans right politically (but is starting to not because of how insane the right is getting)
edit: Changed Oof to Yikes
yeah, it’s less “yikes” in spanish than it is in english.
It’s interesting to me that your experience is so vastly different from mine given we live in the same area (SF bay area). Most trans people I know, including myself, fall on the far left, and at significantly higher rates than the cis people I know (Queer or not). I’ve also never heard the term “t-female-presenting” before, it is completely foreign to me. I mostly hear and use “trans women” or “transfeminine”.
I wonder if there’s another demographic factor, or you are in a unique community of trans people. The people in my circle are generally 20-35, nonreligious, working class, often living paycheck to paycheck, and are actively and primarily in community with other trans people, as a support structure. How would you describe your circle?
i had a similar thought and now i think it’s because i only hung out with latinos at the time since my ex was friends w them and he was mexican. english was no one’s first language, except for i, nor were they born in the united states nor any other english speaking country so maybe there was some sort of cultural or language translation happening since reading trans-feminine-presenting sounds odd when i read it out loud.
Interesting! Most I know were either born in the US or have been in the US since they were kids, primarily communicate in english, and discovered their transness while here. You might be right with the cultural/language translation being a factor. But I’ve also seen “Transexual”, “Transgénero”, “mujer/hombre trans” used by Spanish speakers which tracks not that far from common English usage. I wonder if there’s a different distinction being made or if it’s intertwined with the particular individuals’ conservative ideology in some way.
i suspect age is a big factor too; the youngest of the trans people i used to know would have been genx-er’s and i’m assuming that the big majority were boomers since the eldest millenials would have been in their early to mid 20’s at the time (circa 2006).
all of them were born and raised somewhere else and migrated to the united states as late teenagers or young adults; so i have little doubt their conservative upbringing for those with happy enough childhoods would have had a big impact.
One of my buddies suffered from the same problem. He was left out and generally held at arms length until he was shown love, or at least understanding. He flipped almost overnight and realized how grave his mistakes were. He ended up becoming a teacher and hopes to help students before they made the same sort of mistakes he did when his teachers were shitty to him. Props to him for breaking the cycle.
He still regrets how far he pushed some people away, and the actions he took as a teen. But he is much happier now and we have mended our friendships with him.
The far right has a way of infiltrating people’s minds when they are already mentally weak. They lurk around certain communities and poach people out of them.
This is how reddit was staunchly pro Ron Paul in 2008. Myself included. I still contend that that experience was a training ground for future internet-based astroturfing.
They wind up the 20 year old virgins and turn them into incels, and from there and turn them into misogynists. As an example. Remember when /r/conspiracy was an interesting place full of lively theorizing about UFOs and Bigfoot?
They dip into the source of your emotion…whether that be depression or desire, and widen it into a giant chasm ready to take in all your hate as if that will fix everything in the world. They blame your x on y, and to fix y you gotta vote for R.
The funny thing is…this is the exact same story we are told after some idiot starts shooting up a mall. That they were targeted by extremists online. Same book, different protagonist.
Should we just admit that the rise of the far right is just a symptom of a long unaddressed mental health crisis in the US, and certain people exploiting that for their own gain, or is it too soon for that?
100%. The sickness of the system comes from inequalities and gutted education. Thanks, Reagan!
I’m in an identical situation as you (also from the UK funnily enough), except I did keep in contact with her, albeit at arm’s length at first. She’s explained to me over the years that it was internalised hatred, made worse by her family’s very outspoken views about anyone not straight and white. When she finally had a chance to get away and start thinking things through herself, she began to accept herself and others. She’s a lovely person to be around now, and pretty vocal in trying to help other people learn about and understand trans healthcare and mental support. But most importantly, she’s happy.
That was really wholesome to read!
I’d hope we were talking about the same person and it’s a small world but I think people who are targeted by extreme right views is sadly just probably common.
Wow. I would be nosy too. :-D