No centrist will ever call it a genocide, but people are sure angry that a man who introduced multiple bills to cease or condition weapons sales didn’t say the word as soon as they wanted.
These are the same people who called people trumpers when they said that harris should show some daylight between herself and biden’s “whatever netanyahu-senpai wants” policies.
yea its been going on since he was like 7 years old. took long enough to say it out loud.
This
Back then maybe technically it wasn’t a genocide just yet, but I recall watching news on tv as an 8 year old, talking about Israeli soldiers shooting and murdering children because they threw rocks at them.
Nothing was done about it
That was over 40 years ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
Definitely was a thing then too
If you’re gonna look at a bigger timescale, you’re really asking for a “both sides” argument. Its such a long and complicated conflict.
Yeah that was my undereducated take too. Time to wake up from years of propaganda my friend.
Thanks for the comment. It helped me a lot in changing my view. With al the new information and all the great arguments and the respectful communication…
Look i know that Lemmy is not helpful in educating yourself or even in having good conversations but if it is a topic you are interested in, you might pick up a book about it. I recommend “The hundred years’ war on palestine” by Rashid Khalidi. Very informational also about the shortcomings of the PLO and other palestinian orginanisations.
You do not have to be educated in everything or even anything. When i said what i said i did not mean to insult you. I am only beginning to learn about the history of palestine but it has been eye opening.
Don’t let heated comments and downvotes get to you personally. People are just in rage about all the death and destruction in which the west is more than complicit.
The bar is in hell
I legitimately have no idea how that man keeps going. Pretty sure I would’ve hung my hat up after the first 3 or 4 decades when things kept getting worse.
Honestly, when you’re fighting for what’s right, it makes it more bearable when it’s hard. There’s not this extensive hesitation or heavy weight, like when you’re struggling with some frustrating task that isn’t really what needs to be done in the first place.
Fuck me…and they said that this guy is a huge leftist.
It’s certainly his biggest weakness and blindspot. He’s Jewish and has always been a liberal zionist. This isn’t to excuse the bad position, but the genocide really puts it into sharp contrast.
A quick search will reveal that Sanders has been critical of Israel’s actions in Palestine since at least 2014 but okay.
You can be a critic of Israel and still be a zionist. That’s kind of exactly what a liberal zionist is.
You can also be Jewish without being Zionist.
And I haven’t even addressed the “liberal” claim, which is absolutely laughable. Sanders has been a socialist since the 70’s. I understand that he looks further left from a US perspective than a global one, but the only people who would call him a “liberal” are the far-right US idiots who don’t know what that word means.
I very specifically mean he is a “liberal zionist” as a complete thought. Obviously being Jewish and a Zionist are different concepts, but there’s obviously overlap. He does want to continue the ethnostate as a way to protect jews after the holocaust, just less violently with more civil rights.
In general I agree he is a socialist with some liberal tendencies likely as an outcome of being a US politician.
Hes basically the most left person in US government
In the senate*
Rashida Tlaib has been calling out israels bullshit since day one, and is left of Bernie on a couple other issues like abolishing ice.
True good call
The most Left in the current Congress is still Right wing.
Bernie is still a capitalist.
He is literally a socialist.
Edit: Here he is in 1985: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phTKpMh5jQI
He literally isn’t, though, because being anti-capitalist is the starting point for Socialism. He’s just comfortable with actual Socialism. Which most Americans aren’t thanks to propaganda.
Not to knock the guy. I voted for him the one time I was allowed to. He’s easily one of the best of a bad bunch.
But at best he’s a Social Democrat, which just means he’s Left of most Dems, but given how the Overton window has shifted over the course of his lifetime, post-Reagan that’s not saying much.
Again, not knocking the guy, but he really dropped the ball with Palestine and AIPAC.
Did he switch back to being an Independent? I thought I saw that a while ago.
Anyway, good talk. Thanks.
Dude watch some of the videos where back in the 80s he was going to Nicaragua and Cuba and coming back and talking on TV about their socialist system and how much better it was than the US system. Search for “bernie sanders 1985” or “bernie sanders 1986” on YouTube, there are a bunch. He is a socialist. This whole “left of MOST Dems” thing is incredibly disingenuous.
Switch “back” to being an independent? He’s always been an independent. He ran in the Democratic primary one time, and almost won. That’s it. He’s an independent. You’re trying very hard to paint him into this Democratic-party corner, why?
He “really dropped the ball with Palestine” how? By getting on the Senate floor and yelling about military aid and showing pictures of starving children, repeatedly fighting for bills which would remove Israel’s funding and haranguing everyone to vote for them? That’s “dropped the ball”? How did he drop the ball?
It’s almost like he’s a fully fledged, complex human being and not an avatar of one side of a highly simplified model of political thought.
He’s quite “left-wing” (from a US Overton Window) on most issues. MTG was relatively early speaking out for Palestine. That doesn’t make her a leftist, either
He’s also Jewish, and a prominent politician in a field where Israeli lobbying is extensive, so him speaking out against Israel is a big line for him to cross.
He’s been speaking out against Israel since the 1980s. Not just speaking, but standing up in congress and yelling about it. There was just a little artificial construction where him calling it “ethnic cleansing” instead of “genocide” represented a reason why he was actually pro Israel, which was always a fucking bonkers take on it.
You have to remember that Sanders grew up in Brooklyn in the 40s/50s. He would have encountered holocaust survivors on a daily basis. For guys like that, Israel represented a safeguard against the possible extermination of their people. The fact he’s gone from being broadly supportive if Israel (though being pretty critical of the Netanyahu government) to admitting that this is a genocide shows pretty huge growth.
Yeah but he was a HUGE VOICE for saying “Criticizing Israel is not antisemitism” a few years back, which did A LOT towards others being able to be heard when calling it a Genocide.
Here he is in 1988:
It seems kind of tame by today’s standards. I think that has more to do with the fact that he’s super-Jewish, he was completely comfortable with talking about socialism and Cuba and things in a way that was so far off the left side of the map at the time that it was out of the building. But by the standards of that time it was absolutely insane. This was years before the Rodney King jury said “not guilty,” this was back when we were doing our own Gaza-lite operations in Central America, it was a time when America could do no wrong and anyone who didn’t like us was a terrorist. He actually talks about that in one other interview which I think I posted in another comment, how he met with the Sandinistas and how the media in the US made it totally impossible for them to get any message that was at all friendly to them to anybody in the US.
More recently, here’s a video of him yelling (for the however-manyth time) recently on the Senate floor about what a fucking horror we are enabling in Gaza, showing pictures. “This is an effort to destroy a people.”
BREAKING NEWS " Sanders calls genocide a “genocide”
A few years ago he said “Criticizing Israel is not antisemitic” - this REALLY HELPED criticism of the Genocide be heard at all.
I’m more concerned about the people who don’t want to condemn genocide than the people who are cautious about using the term.
Well he took his time with that one.
AOC next?
“If you want to know what an unfolding genocide looks like, open your eyes.”
Good for Bernie.
Wow, a big step for Sanders. This shows it is becoming more mainstream to acknowledge the genocide. I know it’s common sense for us here, but mainstream acceptance is extremely important here. A long way to go, but this is good news
Maybe he was waiting for the UN commission to officially call it a genocide.
There is a big narrative that loves to pick off the left-est of the left people in the US government, and come up with various bullshit reasons to criticize them.
You’ll never hear this kind of argument applied anywhere else. Like, if Beto O’Rourke said Gaza was a genocide, you wouldn’t see all these Lemmy comments saying “TOOK YOU FUCKING LONG ENOUGH YOU PIECE OF SHIT” or whatever. When that handful of countries said they wouldn’t do sporting events with Israel, I didn’t see anyone commenting “YEAH WHERE WAS THIS TWO YEARS AGO WHERE ARE THE FUCKING WAR CRIMES CHARGES” or anything like that. The extensive nitpicking is only aimed at people like AOC and Bernie who are significant leftist voices in government.
If you want to know what Bernie’s been actually saying about Gaza, this is it:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uVDPXtnTXUw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFhcSlrJcAU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dd4cg-t8j8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2_AWLQ4gk4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBZreokpA_s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRrHfsqg990
And so on. He’s been doing what most of Lemmy would like to see someone in the US Congress doing: Yelling about Israel, what a fucking horror it is, and trying to stop US military aid. This extensive nailbiting about him calling it “ethnic cleansing” instead of “genocide” is just going to get smoothly replaced by these users with some other reason to nailbite about him, definitely not with any enthusiasm or support for him. I guarantee it.
When that handful of countries said they wouldn’t do sporting events with Israel, I didn’t see anyone commenting “YEAH WHERE WAS THIS TWO YEARS AGO WHERE ARE THE FUCKING WAR CRIMES CHARGES” or anything like that.
Then you must not have been paying attention, because that was everywhere here
https://lemmy.world/post/35806638
I literally don’t see even a single comment saying that the Netherlands is bad for not having done this previously. Let alone anything like this or this.
I get you’re trying to run interference over criticism of Bernie, a sitting U.S. senator, but Eurovision hasn’t been voting to send weapons to Israel.
There’s been many votes and resolutions on Gaza that Bernie was involved in where people were hoping for him to make a stance he hasn’t until now.
Eurovision participants? Not so much.
Even Beto, who is an out-of-office former house representative hasn’t been in that position. He was last in office in 2019.
Expectations are way different in these situations.
I get you’re trying to run interference over criticism of Bernie, a sitting U.S. senator, but Eurovision hasn’t been voting to send weapons to Israel.
Yes! I can’t tell you how many times he has voted to send weapons to Israel. Literally every single time. It is known!
Which one was your favorite? Which time did he vote for weapons to Israel that wasn’t some wild mischaracterization like “his vigorous attempt to stop sending weapons to Israel doesn’t count because actually it means he was in favor of all the other times we sent weapons to Israel (which he also vigorously opposed)”? Which bill and what did he vote for that was sending weapons to Israel? This definitely isn’t a bunch of nonsense so I’d love to hear more.
(YouTube videos “people were hoping for him to make a stand” get the fuck out of here lol)
I feel like you missed the ‘sitting U.S. Senator’ vs ‘Eurovision’ point to peoples reactions and expectations?
Which one was your favorite? Which time that Bernie Sanders voted to send weapons to Israel? I can’t wait to hear! Don’t leave me hanging! I really wanted to hear.
I mean you’re right to call me out on that other thing. I definitely remember the time when someone at Eurovision got up and did this, it was right between Spain and Portugal. I do agree, it would be wonderful if someone would do something like that in the US Senate, not just at Eurovision. It’s honestly shameful that Bernie Sanders never did anything like that when Eurovision has been running commercials like this. Honestly, you’re right, and I feel bad for ever doubting your insight here.
I cannot honestly parse this gish.
Yeah, pretty much.
Also:
I’m not convinced the most extreme comments you see online seeking to split up leftists are in good faith. It’s relatively easy for people committing espionage to pretend to be leftists, push their agenda, and then seek to divide and conquer.
I’m not saying there aren’t real people out there saying these things, but I do believe many of them have bought the narrative of bad faith actors that were disguised among them.
The same exact thing happens on the right, but it’s more so just spamming their bad faith rhetoric with bots in their case. Since their goal is just to convince the least checked-in person to disengage or believe their side a bit more by seeing their side first.
Yeah, absolutely.
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/21079358
This fuckin’ dingbat I can’t even
Edit: So maybe I’m fooling myself, but I do feel like I’ve gotten a little bit capable with spotting which ones of them are the deliberate disruptors as opposed to people who got fooled by them and are echoing. The major tells of the totally fake accounts are:
- Low effort. They don’t try very hard to convince you. It doesn’t have to make sense, they don’t really read what people are saying, they just blandly repeat the same kinds of stuff. Most people who sincerely believe that Bernie betrayed the Palestinian people and all our hopes that he would finally say something against Israel (for example) will at least seem like they believe it themselves, they’ll get upset about something specific that happened, or they’ll misunderstand various facts but sincerely talk about them, or similar. The people who are deliberately lying will just kind of fart out their little shtick and then move on to the next comment. Some of the sloppier ones, if you check the profile, don’t really bother to engage with anything that isn’t their designated political talking points. They’ll just kind of spray one-liner “I sure do love Helldivers mm boy” comments in other communities but the only thing they ever put any effort into is particular repetitive political points.
- A lot of times their reactions don’t really need to match what you’re saying. They have a tendency for example to tell you what you believe (“I get you’re trying to run interference over criticism of Bernie”), instead of responding to what you said, and then start arguing with the strawman. Of course real people do that too, but most real people at least have some interest in reading and responding to what the message they’re responding to actually says. A lot of the shill messages could literally apply to any message. Try mentally shuffling them around, so that what they said is a response to some totally different comment, and then if it still fits 100% equally as well, then that’s a warning sign.
- A lot of times they have the same handful of arguments that go on repeat. It’s like 5-10 little nuggets (AOC voted to send weapons to Israel! Bernie doesn’t call it a genocide!) and they tend to fall back on them and totally ignore anything else. Also, crucially, they tend to introduce unrelated ones randomly even when the topic is some totally different thing. For example look at how many people in these comments are bringing up AOC.
- Often if you check in their profile you’ll see a lot of overlap between multiple talking points. Some of the comments are just low-effort spray of random comments, but a lot of their political or meaningful engagement will be the exact same variety of various points. Historically, some of the sloppier ones would tend to overlap ones that really didn’t fit (Ukraine is escalating the war and it’s really dangerous, NATO needs to stop! I sure do wish Kamala Harris wasn’t so pro-genocide, I’m definitely not voting for her!) all from the same account.
That is my short maybe-totally-wrong field guide to identifying the bad accounts on Lemmy. Not 100%, your mileage may vary, I have no real idea but this is what I’ve observed and guessed at.
You were wondering why people weren’t reacting the same to Eurovision contestants calling it a genocide as with Bernie Sanders, which I felt was kind of an odd comparison.
Political alliances are bad because they would mean actually taking action. It’s much more comfortable to just sit around, criticize, and preach your moral superiority.
In particular, if you’re criticizing Bernie Sanders because he’s not awesome enough, then that means you must be so awesome you’re on a whole nother level. And if anyone disagrees, it just means they’re not awesome, it actually proves your whole point. Job done.
The UN just called it one, Bernie has cover to do it now. His situation changed, so did his actions.
People get mad at Bernie because they expect better and are disappointed it took so long. No one expects better of Beto.
But even so-
Like, if Beto O’Rourke said Gaza was a genocide, you wouldn’t see all these Lemmy comments saying “TOOK YOU FUCKING LONG ENOUGH YOU PIECE OF SHIT” or whatever.
-you absolutely would lol
What a stupid take. Beto O’Rourke isn’t portraid as a civil rights champion or a leftist, he’s just a democrat. Bernie was supposed to be more, he’s supposed to be the (democratic) socialist, the left, and he’s supposedly a champion of human rights.
Except for Palestine. He reminisced his beautiful Kibbutz during an active genocide to justify it, completely ignoring his hypocrisy of building such a community by brutally stealing Palestinian land.
We don’t expect Beto to say anything, we had higher expectations for Bernie. He and AOC have let us down in our time of greatest need.
Except for Palestine. They are loud and proud about all their support for human rights and fighting for everyone, except for Palestine.
Bernie will finally call it a genocide, but he’ll go with the shifting tide of blaming Netanyahu. He won’t admit that there’s something fundamentally wrong with a religious ethno supremacist genocidal state and that the rot comes from deep within society, because his priority will be to save Jewish ISIS.
Free Palestine, from the river to the sea. Let me know when he says that.
He and AOC have let us down in our time of greatest need.
Except for Palestine. They are loud and proud about all their support for human rights and fighting for everyone, except for Palestine.
I feel like there are a whole bunch of YouTube links up in the parent comment that you need to watch
Here we go, everyone.
This is what OP is talking about
He’s been doing what most of Lemmy would like to see someone in the US Congress doing
He has focused more of his time criticising the Nentayahu government specifically, rather than the fundamental concept of running a settler colony. He has only recently starting naming the full israeli government. He still believes in sending weapons, aid and trade to the occupation ensuring the continued murder of the Palestinians can continue.
is just going to get smoothly replaced by these users with some other reason to nailbite about him
Because ultimately Bernie still supports the conditions that will continue the genocide. He is still a liberal zionist. He will still buy a beachfront property in Gaza once it is cleansed but I guess its ok if he cries the entire time.
He still believes in sending weapons, aid and trade to the occupation ensuring the continued murder of the Palestinians can continue.
Watch the YouTube videos I posted where he is repeatedly introducing bills to stop ensuring exactly that, and yelling with pictures on the floor of the Senate about how important it is.
You’re talking pure shit.
No, his bills were always weasely with what restrictions they placed. They always had easy to reach exceptions that continued the flow of trade to the occupation. They always allowed more Americans to settler in the land and steal homes from the Palestinians.
Bernie never truly has taken an anti-zionist position. He always ultimately props up the settler state. Even in his latest speech he blames the resistance.
Whee look at the goalposts go
Everyone knows if you’re going to get a bill passed in the US Senate, the best thing you can do is include something in them where individuals can’t trade with Israel anymore. Like Cuba. Just cutting off the flow of military aid would be useless and not accomplish anything, unless we included that totally possible and sensible step in addition, and then asked all the senators to vote on it.
I am honestly a little bit surprised to see so many people eager to jump up and provide examples of the type of bad faith argument I was talking about in my original comment.
Why are you making up what I said?
Whee look at the goalposts go
Failing to call it a genocide in 77 years is not moving a goalpost. Its basic human decency
I am honestly a little bit surprised to see so many people eager to jump up and provide examples of the type of bad faith argument I was talking about in my original comment.
Bad faith is what Bernie has done, always blaming Nentanyahu, continuing the flow of any arms, trade and people to the settler state.
Ah yes, who could forget that time he fought to continue the flow of any arms, trade, and people to the settler state. Which bill was that that he supported? What was the exception carved out, how was it carved out? Clearly I’m super clueless on this topic, what year did he introduce the bill? I want to know, maybe you can help me understand. I know there must have been hundreds if not thousands that he introduced, so just focus on one. Tell me.
https://x.com/anna_bahr/status/1950335108864479631
“Offensive” arms only.
Berni called a genocide, a genocide. Shocking.
I’m sure his office is getting some phone calls from some very powerful people today
Hopefully they’ll all be politely refused
He doesn’t “call” it genocide, it is factually genocide.
But hey. Remember Israel is a democracy!
