Similar to the recent question about artists where you can successfully separate them from their art. Are there any artists who did something so horrible, so despicable, that it has instantly invalidated all art that they have had any part in?
Very boring answer but JK Rowling.
Her books already had some questionable shit in them but witnessing that shockingly venomous transphobia really recontextualizes everything. I used to re read the Harry Potter saga every few years, but never again now, this whole, very nostalgic for me franchise is forever ruined now.
Can I recommend reading/listening to Ursula K. Le Guin’s Earth Sea books?
They’re also coming of age books about a young wizard, which almost certainly heavily inspired Rowling (although AFAIK she never admitted it), but the author is far less problematic. Also arguably much better books, so they’re more enjoyable to read for adults too.
And the cherry on top is this. You may notice a bit of misogyny built into a first couple books in the series, which is surprising given that Ursula is a woman. She not only noticed, admitted, and confronted that patriarchal slant, but corrected it by writing later stories in the same world that reversed that course. Those stories end up being much better than the foundational works in the series. I have become an instant fan of any author that can confront the flaws of their earlier writings and deliberately alter course to do better in their life and their writing.
Another great choice is The King Henry Tapes by Richard Raley. It’s a take on HP, but the magical kid from a dysfunctional family is a juvenile delinquent with a foul mouth. One of my favorite series.
Pendragon by DJ MacHale is also a great set of books.
Id kill for an HP quality set of movies of this series.
Terry Pratchett’s Tiffany Aching books are also great alternatives (and a gateway to the rest of the Discworld books, which are also great).
Yep! Harry Potter doesn’t teach you how to be a wizard, but Tiffany Aching teaches you how to be a witch.
I always thought harry potter was boring as shit. Never got through a movie, never read a book.
But the people who I did see reading the books in class were the ones who definitely would take issue with Rowling’s transphobia.
Yeah I was already a tiny adult when they came out. I tried reading them as an older adult and only got through one and a half.
Chamber of Secrets is definitely the weakest book in the series
I recently listened to this podcast and I think it’s a good way to understand this affair with a more dispassionate approach!
The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling https://www.thefp.com/witchtrials
RSS address: https://feeds.megaphone.fm/RUNMED9919162779
Oh I know all about that podcast trust me, it doesn’t change my opinion about Rowling in the slightest, and it’s far from being a good way to “understand this affair”.
If you’re genuinely curious, I highly recommend ContraPoint’s video about that very podcast, as well as her other video about Rowling.
I’ve linked to them as a reply to the comment you’re replying to.
Agree about the Witch Trials podcast .
Here’s a discussion of that podcast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmT0i0xG6zg
And another one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gDKbT_l2us
Yes, they’re long videos. Yes, there’s a reason they have millions of views. Genuinely interesting.
I looked up all her tweets, and I don’t see much to disagree with.
If you go to Thailand, trans men are called ladyboys and if you ask them if they are women, they say, no, I’m a ladyboy. There’s nothing wrong with having the opinion that trans women will not be real women. She’s not saying she hates trans people, just that they will never be the same as biological women.
Yes, but Thailand is not the entire world, nor was it even the target audience of those tweets.
In the west, when you transition to another gender, it is because you want to identify as that gender. Thus when you say shit like ‘trans women aren’t real women’ you’re denying the identity of thousands of women worldwide.
But… the west isn’t the entire world either.
I think that’s the point. That culture matters and there’s not a one-size-fits-all interpretation or response that satisfies all of them.
People in the west want to believe their culture is the best and all others should follow, but that simply isn’t how the world works. That won’t stop them from getting mad over it, though.
We are talking about a western author broadcasting on a western platform in a western language, often directly in response to other westerners or western ideas of transsexuality. Makes it pretty clear who the target audience and culture is.
This may come as a shock to you, but a lot of westerners don’t believe in transexuality either.
Hey, we’re talking about one right now!
This is what I mean by thinking your culture is the best and all others should follow. Do you think Rowling would be justified if she tweeted in Thai? Lol. If not, then she isn’t unjustified for engaging with westerners.
Try to understand your way of life is not the only, or even the best, way of life.
This may come as a shock to you, but a lot of westerners don’t believe in transexuality either.
Hey, we’re talking about one right now!
No, they believe that transsexuals are heathen abominations that should be stripped of all human rights and dignity. There is a difference.
Try to understand your way of life is not the only, or even the best, way of life.
Try to understand that your way of life should not get in the way of others trying to enjoy theirs when it doesn’t harm other people.
they believe that transsexuals are heathen abominations that should be stripped of all human rights and dignity.
Some of them, sure. But some just disagree with the notion that trans-X are identical to their cis counterparts.
Try to understand that your way of life should not get in the way of others trying to enjoy theirs when it doesn’t harm other people.
I totally agree.
Just because one group that has a passing resemblance to another group says something doesn’t mean that it applies to every group with a passing resemblance. Especially when the group is from a completely different culture.
What’s a biological woman?
They mean people born with female bodies. So Cis women or FtM men.
I want him to define it.
Even cis women might not be ‘biologically female’
It comes from a high school level understanding of genetics.I do get what you mean, it’s oversimplifying a complicated subject.
A major issue is that she isn’t loyal and has her own opinions on the matter.
Independents are seen as enemies in the eyes of tribalists. Eventually, they become enemies.
Kanye. Piece of shit narcissist through and through.
It was always funny watching him talk about Jesus in his songs as though his lifestyle didn’t promote everything Christ went against.
And of course, the next generation sucked it up like a sponge.
Apparently Kanye has copied some great music, and we’ll know for sure if he ever releases some.
yeah kanye for me too. used to be my favorite artist, paid out the ass for tickets on multiple tours, knew all the words to his first like, six albums. haven’t listened to him in like a year and a half after the Alex Jones interview and Adidas stories came out. it’s not even virtue signaling, it’s just too much work to not think about all the horrible shit he’s done and said. i count myself extremely lucky that i never got a tattoo
Lost Prophets. Lead singer fucked babies.
I honestly believe that if you’re convicted of shit like this the band should be able to sue to have your rights to royalties and any songwriting/producing credits revoked. Even if they have to surrender any monetary outcome to the victims or their families.
Lead singer
fuckedraped babies.FTFY
As opposed to what, consensually making love to them? What an unnecessary distinction.
You mean the distinction between engaging in consensual intercourse (aka “fucking”) vs committing a heinous crime?
If you think pointing out that babies can only be raped, is the problem, not saying he “fucked” them, this is a you problem…
I’m saying the fact that its non-consensual sex (aka rape) is inherent to the scenario. A baby can’t consent to, nor understand, the concept of sex. So I guess I’m just not sure what point you’re trying to make in splitting hairs.
I’m making the point that babies cannot be fucked, only raped, which obviously isn’t “inherent” to the person who said “he fucked babies” which minimises the reality of the “scenario” as you call it (more minimisation, why do you do that? To preserve your own comfort of course!). Words matter, and if you think pointing that out is “splitting hairs” (when you’re literally the only one making a load of fuss over this valid distinction), then again, you’re the one with the problem here (and taking issue with someone pointed out that babies can only be raped, not “fucked” is definitely a problem that needs addressing, like seriously - imagine being the person dying on the hill to defend the use of “fucked” to describe baby rape… 🤦♀️).
Damn, you are shooketh. Not used to anyone suggesting your point may not be as profound as you thought, I guess.
Take a breather, It’ll all be okay.
Yeah, he’s reddit-brained for sure.
Edit: never mind, I don’t feel like starting another argument here
The point is that we should try to stop using euphemistic language around rape. It happens all the time, and it lessens the impact of the act for the reader. We should be explicit.
Why would I try to do so in the first place?
Imagine someone telling you “you have to separate the product from the corporation. Yes, they lobby to permit slave labour and are directly funding the genocide in Palestine, but they make one fine chicken sandwich - and if you don’t put down your silly objections to focus on that, you have failed as a human being”.
Fuck that, fuck everything about that.
Art is political. Fiction doubly so. You cannot and should not try to rip art free from its cultural context, because that context is the perspective that gives it meaning in the first place.
And extra-splintery fuck the idea that the onus is on the audience to sweep everything under the carpet for horrible people.
We’re in no danger of running out of art. We have an unlimited supply of artists just waiting for a break in the canopy to sprout up and grow into something new and exciting. If a handful of toxic assholes get canceled despite being popular, then so much the better.
I disagree. You can both admit that the company makes one damn fine chicken sandwich and still not buy it because they support slave labour. Them supporting slave labour doesn’t make it a bad chicken sandwich, just as them making a damn good chicken sandwich doesn’t stop them from supporting slave labour. It’s the method that’s important, not the reason itself.
That’s the point though, that some people will use the ‘but chicken sandwich is good’ as a justification to overlook the other problems and still buy them. My ex and Hobby Lobby, for instance - she’d want to go there and shop for paints because they ‘might have a sale’, and I was just uh, no? Fuck Hobby Lobby.
Continue buying products direclty supports the company, that doesn’t necessarily apply to art. Me simple enjoying a piece of art doesn’t support the creator. Only when I buy or licence it.
The popularity of art can both increase it’s value and promote the creator, making their other works more valuable.
Potentially, sure. But that also doesn’t apply if you’re enjoying it in private.
Privately inside your own head or from a book you already owned that you then proceed to never discuss, sure. But views, downloads (even pirated), word of mouth, all help promote the work.
What about when the artistis is dead and can no longer profit of his work by any means? Does that make the art “ok” again?
Sure, but overlooking moral misgivings is the similarity. Just like I wouldn’t tell someone ‘hey, I love this sale at Hobby Lobby!’ I wouldn’t feel right about endorsing a star or director or artist or musician who was found to be a terrible person. The same applies to enjoying it in private - my knowledge about the creator would somewhat ruin my enjoyment of their work.
I wouldn’t feel right about endorsing a star or director or artist or musician who was found to be a terrible person.
I don’t think enjoying or even endorising a piece of art is equivalent to endorsing the people that produced it.
For example I will always enjoy Firefly and will keep recommending it to people, simple because it’s an amazing show. What ever Joss Whedon has done doesn’t change that. Hell, I wouldn’t care if it was directed by Hitler and produced by Jeffery Dahmer.
That seems to be the topic here… some people do feel uncomfortable about works having a connection to a terrible person, others don’t. Personally I do think about the creator of artistic works when consuming them or as a fan, and I don’t really want to be thinking “huh, I wonder what Hitler and Dahmer were thinking when they made that decision”. On the other hand, some people love thinking about awful people like serial killers.
First up, fandom is free advertising; fuck them I’m not promoting their product for them, even if I don’t buy it.
But more than that, it’s sending a message that the behaviour is something we’re willing to condone, that we stand with the abuser rather than their victims.
Imagine telling a sexual assault survivor to just lie back and enjoy the masterful comic stylings of Bill Cosby, or at least to shut up and let you enjoy it, because they’re ruining the funny.
Would that person have reason to consider you a friend or ally after that?
The Harry Potter IP, for instance, is just a giant anti-trans flag now, and the people who wave it around are picking a side. They can’t pretend they’re not; pinning the logo to their chest is explicitly endorsing the author’s views, and spitting in the face of every trans person in their life.
I think you missed their point. They explicitly said that you can at something is a good product and just not buy it because fuck that company. Same point with artists, they can be talented shitbags, we avoid them for the shitbag part, no other reason.
“DJ” Khalid. I’ve heard that he’s actually a very talented musician. I’ve never been shown proof that the claims are true.
Following is also proof that he can read
whenever I see a meme with art from stonetoss (a neo-nazi) in it, I have a visceral response
Damn, source on the neo nazi thing? It’s usually just memes that I’ve seen with his content, now I’m wondering what he really draws about.
Here’s a video covering it by Thought Slime
I mean I can’t and won’t watch any Tom Cruise aka a bunch of ‘classics’, for a similar reason.
For me he is the perfect counter example. I despise that cunt as much as the next guy, but god damn he is a good actor.
He also signs on to REALLY GOOD scifi scripts that might not have gotten as much budget without his name.
Same. Guy gives me the creeps. As do far too many others from Jack Nicholson to James Franco (not sure why those came to mind first, and I was going to continue listing, but honestly there are just too many, some, like Russel Brand it was obvious way before any public allegations were made, so there are those as well, where we’re just waiting for the other shoe to drop. There are also those who I can’t stand seeing/hearing because they’re bigots, so I really could be here all day).
I’m not claiming any purity by the way, there are far too many to flat out avoid them all, but some simply make my skin crawl more than others, and I just don’t need to consume something that makes me feel that way. ¯\(ツ)/¯
Ian Watkins, lead singer of the band Lostprophets. Never read the court transcripts of his crimes, they really are that horrible and will ruin you for some time.
Exactly who I thought of.
Marlon Brando
After hearing from Maria Schneider, and confirmed by Bertolucci, how he and Brando treated her filming the rape scenes in Last Tango my Brando crush instantly withered on the vine. She was only 19.
Not even a fan of marlon brando, but i think i’ll pass on reading into it.
Roman Polanski and by extension Jack Nicholson
Wait, what’s up with Jack Nicholson?
Polanski’s known crime happened AT Jack Nicholson’s home. Nicholson tooooootally didn’t know about any of it.
I still listen to Michael Jackson but I won’t listen to R Kelly.
Well, one’s alive and the other isn’t. As long as the inheritors of MJ’s estate are decent people, I think it’s fine at this point. Still skeeves me out to listen to his stuff, though. Two verses in and my brain is popping.
You know that while he was incredibly strange, there were never any credible accusations right? There were a lot of people fluffing the stories trying to get a payout but there was never any evidence of wrongdoing.
Well to be fair one was found guilty in a court of law and the other (I don’t believe but feel free to correct me) didn’t even have a criminal case brought against him.
Loved Michael Jackson music so fucking much. Can’t stomach it anymore.
But the first few moments of Billy Jean…
Not as if I’m a fan, but Eric Gill is/was a prolific, respected and internationally renowned artist. You’ll his work across the UK, perhaps most notably on the BBC’s broadcasting house.
Also designed the Gill Sans typeface, which I think everyone’s heard of or even used. Used all across the world on signage or stores.
Here’s why I have a hard time taking his works at face value:
Although the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography describes Gill as “the greatest artist-craftsman of the twentieth century: a letter-cutter and type designer of genius”, he is also a figure of considerable controversy following the revelations of his sexual abuse of two of his daughters and of his pet dog.
That’s the pokemon TCG font, also notably
John Kricfalusi, creator of Ren & Stimpy. That man is a demon.
What he do?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kricfalusi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Happy_Joy_Joy:_The_Ren_and_Stimpy_Story
Tldr. Basically, he was a piece of shit tyrant edgelord who kept trying to push boundaries and didn’t quite understand humor. His show was only made good by everybody around him trying to rein him in and fix his fuck ups. Also for good measure, he’s a sex pest.
Classic
I once met Bob Camp in Atlantic City in 2015 and he told me this whole story. He said he hated JohnK and that he was possibly the most deranged person he had ever met. He then told me that the only thing that came out of this that was good in the end was SpongeBob.
Sick Little Monkeys: The Unauthorized Ren & Stimpy Story is the book that he referred me to if I wanted more details.
The Rick & Morty guy kind of ruined his show, too.
Adolf Hitler.
NGL If I were rich Id probably buy one of his paintings just to hang it in the least used guest barhroom.
Id never mention that it was a “Hitler” or why I had it. Id just like to have his failure be something my least favorite relatives have to stare at while they take a shit. My own personal fuck you to the cunt.
I don’t like it. It’s smug aura mocks me. It’s evil, Charlie!
That’s really inviting layers of ugliness into your life and your mind, and subjecting your guests to stealth ugliness.
Reducing anything that anyone who venerates Hitler or Nazis to a joke is better than destroying it. Because its just a shitty painting, its not evil, it doesnt hold psychic power, its not a banner to rally behind. Its just a terrible mans terrible painting that is now something that hangs above Uncle Joe while he clogs the toilet with his mammoth fast food dumps.
It’s poison, and you’d be subjecting yourself and your guests to poison.
It’s not funny, and Burt K is a drooling moron. He’s pretty much brain dead.
Hitler actually made some pretty good art.
But even way back then, the art world was a crock of shit.
His art was okay, but it’s only famous because of some of the other stuff he did.
Terry Goodkind.
Can’t separate the work from the author since both are pretty bad.
It takes a special kind of person to require a pinned “please don’t celebrate deaths” reminder on Reddit when you die…
Goodkind
So he was neither, then?
No. He was a misogynistic piece of crap that wrote morally questionable material that was also disrespectful to his assistants, illustrators and fans.
Allegedly, the “good” and the “kind” were stolen during the Great Battle of the Terry’s, where one Terry used the “good” to build a Temple, while the other Terry with a meteor sword used the “kind” to empower actual quality fiction.
spoiler
GNU Terry Pratchett
