I’m not a mouse, and humans have been eating red meat (whenever they could get it) for literally aeons.
Sure, but they had meat maybe once or twice per week. Nowadays we have meat five times per day.
They ate protein moderately and only enough to satiate their appetite. But if they were using storage methods ranging from hot springs to drying and fermentation they were eating red meat daily for months. Remaining meat was given to dogs (which eat unlimited amounts of protein). Fat was what humans ate in vast quantities. They’d go to extreme lengths to eat all sources of fat and marrow.
Although this study though doesn’t make quite the same point that you’re making.
The researchers artificially caused IBD in the mice by injecting them with a compound that damages their mucosal layer in the gut.
So what they’re saying is that once you have IBD you might want to eat a low protein diet. This is consistent with diets that were used to treat diarrhea (which suggests ibd) such as the BRAT diet.
Nowadays we have meat five times per day.
Who the hell is eating meat 5 times a day? Jordan Peterson??
A lot of people it seems.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_meat_consumption
You should see what a pure veggie diet does to humans! Crop dusting left and right.
Just cut down on the legumes and the gas will pass.
Let me get this straight. Herbivores shouldn’t eat meat‽ Holy crap! this changes everything!
Mice are omnivores like us. That said, just because something is bad for a mouse doesn’t necessarily mean it’s bad for humans.
Were mice?
Weremice?
Waremice
Gotta love all the people suddenly realizing that vivisection is worthless… thinking that meat is natural for humans but not mice… wew.
They intentionally chemically triggered IBD in the mice, how the fuck is this conclusive of anything?
Going by the article, it was more that it made it worse when it happened, rather than starting it.
Eating food that is known to irritate IBD after inducing IBD will irritate IBD. Revelatory.
I’m not a mouse. What do I give a fuck?
You are not a black woman. So fuck black people and fuck women /s
fuck women
You wish…
Next time I meet up with my mouse friends I’ll be sure to let them know.
Personally know multiple carnivores who can’t stop shitting themselves and still swear by the diet.
I find that remarkable considering the fact that astronauts would eat high protein foods to minimize their bowel movements because the human body will efficiently absorb highly bioavailable proteins and fat (e.g. from animal sources) it consumes. Considering human feces are 75% water and the remaining 25% are primarily bacterial biomass and plant matter, my guess is the carnivores you know have just started the diet and have upset their stomachs with the sudden change.
fact that astronauts would eat high protein foods to minimize their bowel movements because the human body will efficiently absorb highly bioavailable proteins and fat (e.g. from animal sources) it consumes.
To minimize their bowel movements, astronauts had a high-protein, low-residue diet — think steak and eggs and other foods that are don’t make a lot of waste after they are absorbed by the body.
Wow, that is a fun fact! I had no idea. That is going into trivia night
I am a carnivore, and I talk to other carnivores. In the group people who only eat animal based food, and no plants: Our poop is consistent, infrequent (1-2 days), minimal, moves easily and not smelly.
Sure thing buddy, enjoy your meme diet while you can lol
Your bowel movement talking point doesn’t match my experience, perhaps your prediction is just as accurate?
Maybe just google bowel issue research for your meme diet and all other proven dangers but clearly rationality is lost with something called “carnivore diet”.
I actually have read the papers! But that is a different point altogether, let’s get back on track…
this discussion was your personal experience with multiple carnivores who have persistent diarrhea, which doesn’t match the experience of myself, or anecdotes of other strict carnivores I have spoken with. I’d like to know what kind of diet your personal connections are following? Do you mean carnivore as in no plant based foods, or in that they eat any meat at all?
I personally know a few carnivores that they wish they could shit more often than twice a week.
Fun fact, removing fibre from the diet is the only method demonstrated in a interventional control trial in eliminating clinical constipation.
slide on Fiber intake and constipation
If these people are still eating lots of fiber (or cheese) they might want to cut that out.
What’s your point?
Maybe the fact is true because my anecdotal evidence aligns with it.
I don’t shit myself, and I eat meat. Your “fact” has just been disproven. Do better.
My fact? Did you read the article or did your dumb ass diet took away your ability to read too?
For me this is a case of picking the lesser poison. I have IBD and FODMAPs give me major issues. This means most fruit and vegetables, plus dairy and wheat, cause major issues. Meat, including red meat, is one of the few foods which don’t cause me intestinal pain, bloating, and diarrhea. Studies indicate a not insignificant proportion of the population have issues with FODMAPs, and they also tend to fare much better with meat.
I’ve read lots of compelling data about IBD and a plant-free diet, do you have any experience trying it?
I used to have mediocre IBS symptoms. Never to the point of being debilitating, but such that I was always aware where the closest toilet was and got anxious if it was too far away.
There was an article about studies being done on using common antihistamin to treat IBS that helped in many cases. Tried it and never looked back. That pretty much solved my bowel ussues.
So would you feel symptoms and take the antihistamines to avoid the squirtybum, or take them ahead of eating?
I take on pill every morning and don’t really think about what I eat. :)
Thanks for the suggestion. Antihistamines help when symptoms are caused by histamine or histadine rich foods. Some people have overactive mast cell activity or produce too little DAO. You could also try DAO supplements. Which antihistamine works for you?
I use just the basic over the counter allergy medicine. (Kestox is the product here) It costs about 15€/100 tabs, so much cheaper than DAO suplements.
Well… I guess we’re just not going to bother taking into account that red meat isn’t part of a mouse’s diet? And that maybe they’re going to react poorly when force fed things they generally don’t eat?
Next, maybe we should see how well whales react if we feed them 3,000lbs of french fries.
At the same time, a lot of places aren’t going to let scientists test on something closer to humans without something clearly showing a reason for it. The ethics board would wonder why they didn’t try it on mice first, and wouldn’t approve anything else.
That they found an effect in mice would be good justification to move up a step. If there was no effect, then that would be the end of that.
I assume you went through the actual published article and have the necessary expertise to come to this “bullshit” conclusion.
I don’t really know enough about mouse (and human) gut biome to know what the similarities and caveats are.
A quick google search will tell you what the primary diet of mice is: nuts and berries, small vertebrates and carrion.
Not USDA grade prime rib.
Not what the research is about though, but good doing your own research
Dude… it’s right in the article:
In the animal study, mice were fed three types of red meat – pork, beef and mutton – every day for two weeks.
Not sure where you the from, by where I’m at- mice can’t take down a pig, cow, or sheep. Even if they worked together with the other hunter/gatherer mice in their tribe and really thought hard about how badly they wanted it.
You clearly don’t get it. This is not about what they eat.
If you mix two chemicals, they react the same way. It doesn’t matter if this happens inside a mouse or a human.
Their reaction to it might be different, which is what the article ponts out. But the gut biome still compares to what’s inside a human, so if you introduce something like red meat, the measured reaction inside will be similar, even if it’s not in their diet, like you shallowly point out.
Oh I get it. It’s entirely about what they eat. Otherwise, the scientists wouldn’t have FED them meat. They’d liquify it and inject it.
Their gut biome is entirely different from ours. There are foods we eat daily that is poison to them. They as hard as you’d like, it this is bullshit science. Essentially an easy way to get grant funds.
Nothing more.
Those animals are pretty defenseless after they die and no one is immune to that.
Again, not part of their diet.
Garlic, onions, citrus and beans fuck up and can even possibly kill mice, so it’s not a straight comparison by any stretch
I didn’t know we had so many PhD level gastroenterologists on Lemmy, I’m glad we’ve attracted such an educated community and we’re not filled with reactionary nerds who vaguely remember their freshman zoology class.
“i’m not a mouse”
Checkmate nerds
When inconvenient truths arrive about people’s preferred habits, they often become instant field experts.
As an aside, mice are opportunistic omnivores - this information can be found with ease. They will eat whatever the fuck they can find and will gladly feed on a cow’s carcass. This added context makes the instant field expert comments claiming they’re herbivores and that ‘this study is obviously bad’ even more embarrassing.
Anecdotally, I’ve had way less stomach issues since shifting largely to white meat and a mostly plant based diet.
That’s fine, we already know how to cure any disease in mice.
Yeah that cure works for humans too. Far more cost effective. Just ask any insurance company, fascist, etc.
What if I eat the red meat without stuffing it into a mouse first?
Need a new study for that.
Where’s that old Twitter bot that would append in mice to reports of these bullshit studies?
Does the Lemmy post title not have “in mice” in it for you? I added it to the title of the post to clarify this. It should show as
Red meat wreaks havoc on gut and drives inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) in study on mice
Whereas the original title of the article was:
Red meat wreaks havoc on gut and drives inflammatory bowel disease
Oh yeah absolutely, I wasn’t criticising you at all, was just noting the ‘in mice’ thing that’s all!
