• Dewege@feddit.org
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    9 days ago

    Also they already start shortening the live cycle of the non subscription office licenses, calling it „Modern-Lifecycle-Policy“. Up to now you hat 7-10 years of update support. But this year Office 2016 and 2019 phase out, next year already Office 2021! And Office 2024 only has support til 2029. Thats from today only 4 years (at the same price!)

  • dance_ninja@lemmy.world
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    8 days ago

    If the XML standard is overly complex, does that mean it’ll be a bigger pain for MS employees to maintain? Sounds like cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face.

    • CriticalMiss@lemmy.world
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      8 days ago

      Iirc the openXML standard was open sourced due to some anti trust stuff brewing. They then expanded on the standard with proprietary addons that give LibreOffice/Google Docs trouble.

  • MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip
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    9 days ago

    Anyone who thinks this is new, please read this, this and this.

    And there’s also this. It’s a topic since shortly after the standardization of the Open Document Format 2006. MS then feared to lose whole governments as customers, so they (pseudo)standardized their own format, with a whole bunch of traps (in the format) and abuses of market power.

  • EarthshipTechIntern01@lemmy.world
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    8 days ago

    Disappointing Fox news version of Windows’ take of something somebody at Libre once said about Windows’ domination of markets.

    This read like basics. Was hoping for more info on how unusable XML was fot LibreOffice or if it wasn’t (unusable to OSS versions). Obviously, OSS is better for enough reasons that a few in the EU are switching government computers from Windows to Linux.

    Yes, corporate & proprietary schtick is lame & crippling. Old news. Guess it needs to be yelled until we research start taking about (marketing) FOSS Solutions.

  • Simulation6@sopuli.xyz
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    8 days ago

    I mean, they could just really suck at writing good software. Isn’t some sort of rule of thumb law to never attribute to malicious intent what can just as easily be explained by stupidity?

  • The Hobbyist@lemmy.zip
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    9 days ago

    I don’t buy the argument that windows just works or that it’s somehow better or more stable. The reality is we all have grown to learn about computers specifically using windows and it’s been a steep learning curve. We have gotten familiar with its specificities and its sporadic misbehavior and accepted that as the norm. And people prefer what they are used to even if it’s suboptimal because they would rather not learn something else from scratch, even if in the long run it could be better.

    Put any person who has zero computer experience in front of a windows computer or Linux computer and I doubt they would say the windows computer just works and the Linux one doesn’t.

    • Brkdncr@lemmy.world
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      9 days ago

      Every single time I try out Linux it’s been a shitshow. Stuff doesn’t work, drive encryption requires multiple passwords to boot up. Updates that fail.

      Windows just works. Only apple is more consistent.

      • dropped_packet@lemmy.zip
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        9 days ago

        I have never seen an encryption implementation that required two passwords to decrypt the disk.

        Is it possible the first one decrypted the disk and the second password was for your user account?

        • Brkdncr@lemmy.world
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          9 days ago

          Could be. I just remember being perturbed that there wasn’t an easy way to undo that situation.

          • dropped_packet@lemmy.zip
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            9 days ago

            Most desktop environments have an option for auto login under the user settings. That way you only need to decrypt the disk.

            • Brkdncr@lemmy.world
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              8 days ago

              I still end up with other issues.

              Right now I have one that attempted an update and ate the storage device. I later find out that the update command is deprecated and shouldn’t be used. Why is it still there then?

              Another that installed a DE but the display is sideways and it’s not responding to the config.txt edits to rotate the display. In windows i didn’t need to look anything up, just right click and edit my display settings.

              • dropped_packet@lemmy.zip
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                8 days ago

                What distribution are you using? The common desktop environments (KDE & Gnome) have simple graphical display configurations similar to what you find in Windows.

    • EnsignWashout@startrek.website
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      7 days ago

      Put any person who has zero computer experience in front of a windows computer or Linux computer and I doubt they would say the windows computer just works and the Linux one doesn’t.

      I did this experiment on my own kids. They find Linux more usable, and find it hard to believe people tolerate Windows.

      There’s also some indoctrination involved.

      But they have access to both, and they prefer Linux. I think that the “Windows is genuinely easier” argument doesn’t hold any water anymore.

    • embed_me@programming.dev
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      9 days ago

      Linux works better than windows for most apps/system stuff.

      But there are certain classes of apps which are not up to par with whatever is available on windows. An office suite is one of them, I just use the Google suite (mostly sheets) in a browser, it works better for me.

      I agree with the developers point about lock-in but sadly I don’t have enough time at work to work with libre calc over proprietary alternatives (I have tried it truly but the performance and user experience is just not good enough for someone already past deadlines)

    • Ilovethebomb@sh.itjust.works
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      9 days ago

      Not so much the user experience, but I’m not aware of any software that doesn’t work with Microsoft, except for ones developed by Apple.

      With the latest version of Windows, it’s not even a question as to whether a given piece of software will run.

      • sqgl@sh.itjust.works
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        9 days ago

        Networking your home computers still does not work smoothly in Windows. It often stops for no good reason until you reboot everything.

    • vrighter@discuss.tchncs.de
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      9 days ago

      the windows just works argument actually refers to the fact that it’s consistent.

      If you have a problem with the desktop, nobody needs to ask you which de you use, or which parts you have substituted out. You have a graphics problem, nobody asks if wayland or x11. You have a problem with audio, nobody asks you whether you have pipewire-pulse installed and to use pipewire. Shit’s the same everywhere.

      I say this as an arch linux user. The choice we all love, is actually a detriment to the average non-power user.

      • sleepyplacebo@rblind.com
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        9 days ago

        Anecdotally my parents use linux because of me using it on my computers too and one nice thing about it is that they can have a consistent UI. The kind of changes that happen with at least some well established desktop environments and window managers are not nearly as radical as when Windows changes where things are at in their UI. There might be some UI tweaks here and there depending on your choice of desktop environments but I don’t use rapidly changing DEs on their PC. With some of the simpler well established DEs it isn’t typical that there will be a change so dramatic that you have to relearn how to use it like with Windows 8 or something. There are some such as GNOME that have undergone some heavy changes in the past but you can choose to use simpler ones like say LXDE or Cinnamon.

        They mostly use the web browser anyway so it isn’t like it was a really steep learning curve. Since they switched to linux the amount of help I have had to give them has decreased. If my parents did more advanced tasks they would need to learn some new ways of managing their computer yeah but for them they just browse the web, use Libreoffice and use the printer mostly. Even before they switched to linux I had them using a bunch of open source cross platform software for years before that which did help the process go smoother but Libreoffice for example has a similar UI to the classic Microsoft Word so it was not like it was a huge learning curve.

        I do their software updates but me doing software updates has just been me typing “sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get full-upgrade” and restarting. If there ever was a problem I would have to fix it but I would have to fix it if there was a problem with Windows too. I find linux to be easier to fix than Windows and the error messages to be easier to figure out. Overall the switch has gone well and there is less I have to worry about.

    • AppearanceBoring9229@sh.itjust.works
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      9 days ago

      Put any person who has zero computer experience in front of a windows computer or Linux computer and I doubt they would say the windows computer just works and the Linux one doesn’t.

      In my experience, usually with Linux they have less problems and it’s easier to use. Until they need an application that only works on Windows.

      • T156@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        In my experience, it’s been a bit of a mixed bag. There are some things that work in Linux, and some things that don’t, even after a bit of fiddling. My desktop’s front panel is completely unusable on Linux, for example.

        Windows is at least widespread enough that it’s far more likely that parts will work on it at least to some degree. And sure enough, the front panel works fine there.

      • The Hobbyist@lemmy.zip
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        8 days ago

        I think this is an issue where you are talking about people coming from windows trying to do windows things on linux like run windows software. Of course you can in some cases run windows software on Linux but it is not a fair comparison to blame Linux for not being able to run windows software. Linux has it’s own suite of software and that is often better suited.

    • racemaniac@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      9 days ago

      Then i don’t know what you’re doing with your computer, but every time i use linux, all those things that are “awesome and just work on linux” somehow still have lots of annoying gotchas that waste too much of my time.

      I’ve got some nice linux servers running that i’m really happy with. But once you go for the linux desktop, it’s just a world of pain compared to windows, no matter how you look at it. I’m more than experienced enough to get it running in the end, but claiming that linux “just works” is delusional…

      Just the fact of how the ecosystem is fractured (which is also mentioned in the article here, with running a debian package on fedora), is already something that’ll make it too complicated for a lot of people to handle. And even the things “that just work”, just don’t. For example, i’ve got a steamdeck like device now, with bazzite (steamos like OS). Yes, it’s amazing at running windows games in linux. I heard so many people say how with proton “running windows games on linux just works”. If you stick to the ultra popular games, it for sure does. Go to a game that’s a bit older or lesser known, and no it isn’t. Make time to figure out settings to get it to run, tinker with controller mappings, and in the end, it might just still not work. And pretty much everything on linux feels that way, the initial impression is decent. If you stay on the safe path, it’ll work pretty well. Do something a bit less common: you’re on your own.

      And that’s its commonly accepted for trolls to blame the user, and be like “it’s free, so accept it the way it is” when someone dares to ask questions or … even… (do i dare say it?)… complain… Doesn’t make for the most constructive environment…

      Linux has achieved many great things, but the linux desktop sure has its use if you’re willing to spend your time on it, but acting as if it’s a better experience than the windows desktop is just delusional. There’s no other way to put it.

      • The Hobbyist@lemmy.zip
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        8 days ago

        I didn’t say Linux just works. I’m just fighting back against the preconceived idea that it’s just a total mess and windows isn’t. I have myself ran into issues with linux. But also, I’ve run into many issues with windows too.

        The difference is that when people encounter issues with windows, it’s like well too bad, need to find someone who can fix it. But when they encounter an issue with Linux, it’s like linux sucks, let me get back to Windows as if it didn’t suck at least as much.

        • racemaniac@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          8 days ago

          The point i guess with the main OS’s like windows/macOS, is that microsoft/apple put in the time to support most edge cases, and most things you can try either work, or aren’t that hard to make work (assuming you don’t go against things they try to force. But that’s not something that most users we’re talking about here do). So for windows, want to install that app for windows XP from 20 years ago? no problem. As mentioned in the article here: want to install that up to date program made for another distro? good luck…

          And that’s in the end what it boils down to… It’s a fragmented ecosystem, and many slightly advanced things require that you understand how your computer & OS work. Things that a slightly advanced user can handle in Windows via some UI, will most likely be far harder on linux…

          I’d love to use a linux desktop more, but sadly my time is also precious, and i just don’t have the motivation to use it fighting with the linux desktop >_<…

  • Tehhund@lemmy.world
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    8 days ago

    The problem: our desire for convenience

    Bring on the downvotes, but: When it comes to tools like computers, convenience is synonymous with productivity. People aren’t unreasonably demanding to have their hands held, they want to get stuff done. We need to stop acting like convenience productivity is just one of many concerns. It is the primary concern.

    Freedom is nice but to most people it’s only important if it helps us do the things we want to do.

    • UltraMagnus@startrek.website
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      8 days ago

      No, what you say makes sense, and I think it’s part of the reason why linux usage (as a daily driver) is starting to increase now versus 20 years ago. It’s just easier to install and use linux distros nowadays.

      And most folks who want office for free are going to go with google docs, for the convenience factor.

    • lefaucet@slrpnk.net
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      8 days ago

      I find dealing with Micros~1 a giant pain in the ass. It’s always getting in the way of productivity with pointless rearranging of menus all the time, constantly trying to get me to use One Drive, shoving AI into every corner of everything.

      I’m trying to make a spreadsheet to figure out and share budgets, instead I’m spending my time hunting for that menu that disappeared and figuring out how to disable copilot because I’m legally not allowed to share client data with third parties.

      • Tehhund@lemmy.world
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        7 days ago

        This an incredibly tech-brained answer. “Sure, lots of OSS is difficult to install, breaks frequently, and lacks key features, but did you know Microsoft sometimes moves a menu item?”

        I love OSS and I want it to succeed but “an item moved” isn’t in the same ballpark as the barriers to OSS adoption.

        • lefaucet@slrpnk.net
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          7 days ago

          Lacks key features? Like collecting telemetry data? A subscription model? Not for me.

          And talk about shit failing our IT department spends way more time fixing MS bullshit than maintaining Linux machines. We use Fedora at the office and that is extremely stable and very secure.

          When IT has to fix a Linux machine it"s because of an actual hardware failure

        • Doomsider@lemmy.world
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          7 days ago

          This is probably the stupidest hill to die in I have ever seen. Of all the things to defend MS for you try to justify their destruction of the pull down menu!?

          They broke 30+ years of standard GUI just to keep breaking and changing their stupid ass ribbon bar.

          I don’t really care for Macs but god damn does their universal PDM system work great.

          The amount of times I have had to click through and memorize their dumb as fuck ribbon bar just to have them change it again the next version is ridiculous.

          • Tehhund@lemmy.world
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            7 days ago

            I started the name calling by saying “tech brained” so I apologize and I’ll ease off on that.

            With that said, I have to strongly disagree with you. I use MS Office, LibreOffice, and Google Docs regularly, and IMO the ribbon was a huge improvement for word processors and spreadsheets over traditional drop-down menus. Drop-Down menus have their place but for document editing they are not ideal.

            • Doomsider@lemmy.world
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              7 days ago

              You are going to die on that hill. You sir have some serious screws loose and I will never take anything you say seriously again.

              • Tehhund@lemmy.world
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                7 days ago

                Oh no, some crank who can’t understand that other people have preferences won’t take me seriously. This is a major loss. I am so owned. This definitely isn’t emblematic of the problem with the OSS community.

                • Doomsider@lemmy.world
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                  7 days ago

                  You also act like an idiot. Now you are a victim as well. The big bad OSS community!? Do you even listen to the shit that is pouring out of your mouth.

    • Zink@programming.dev
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      8 days ago

      Yes, exactly that! That convenience == productivity connection is exactly why I am a Linux Mint fan!

      Convenience has value, so a lot of people will give their “free” information, attention, and control to commercial entities in exchange for it. Enshittification ensues and many of us are conditioned to beware of things that are simple to use because it REALLY just means you’ve been locked out of 95% of the options.

      When a good FOSS project can bring convenience and productivity to more people around the world with NO strings attached, that is an incredibly good thing. It’s like, humanity actually working together just for the sake of the greater good, but doing it on the internet because governments can suck at it.

      Damn, I need to find a good open source project to help out this winter when I’m forced to stop my oudoor “engineer turned farmer” hobbies for the season.

      Edit: probably something Jellyfin related. Can’t believe I forgot to mention that!

    • sunbeam60@lemmy.ml
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      8 days ago

      In addition to that, with great respect to the hard working developers on LibreOffice, at least some of what seems like “unnecessary complexity” in Microsoft’s format is most likely just requirements LibreOffice isn’t solving or haven’t even encountered yet. You don’t get to Office’s size without having to deal with the most insane batshit crazy backcompat or compatibility issues.

      • Noja@sopuli.xyz
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        8 days ago

        They are intentionally obfuscating their file formats. It has nothing to do with complexity or “backwards compatibility” Microsoft has a LONG history of stuff like this.

        • sunbeam60@lemmy.ml
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          8 days ago

          That may be but without sources that say “let’s make the format more obscure” this is just opinion. Your opinion, OpenOffice opinion, IBM opinion etc.

          Look for example at the 1904 dating system that Microsoft still has to support. Real customers still use this shit.

          I’m not saying Microsoft has always exhibited good behaviour. But their crappy approach tends to be on the go to market side.

          Office still has to support a leap year bug to allow banks to run their crappy Lotus based record keeping. Lotus for Darwin’s sake!! There is so much history in these files and what office has to do with them.

  • Corelli_III@midwest.social
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    8 days ago

    Not sure why this author is spreading “paid software is convenient and just works” rhetoric. Simply isn’t the case. You just get addicted to trying to solve your problems with money.

    • hansolo@lemmy.today
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      8 days ago

      Right?! That’s how this article ends?! “Sorry, but people are lazy, so, uh…Microsoft just wins I guess.”

  • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world
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    9 days ago

    My only issue with Libre Office is that they are not available on mobile phones. I want to use spread sheets to make calculate and make projections on my finances if I can’t use my computer at a given moment.

  • ilinamorato@lemmy.world
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    9 days ago

    There’s a phrase that gets passed around the tech scene: “Linux is only free if your time has no value.” Because, yes, Linux and other open-source apps are free to download and use. In a world driven by money, you’d expect the free version to overtake the paid one. The problem is, the paid option…just works.

    Sure, until the paid option does something anti-competitive or gets too expensive or shuts down entirely, and you have to switch to a different paid option, sometimes burning dozens of hours in switching time (and/or hundreds of hours of work through lost or corrupted data) in the process. Not to mention the transition costs of just figuring out the new thing. Why not just switch to something that won’t go away, or be changed under your feet?

    The problem is that it needs that initial time investment to get it working the way you want it.

    Maybe I’m just enough of a tinkerer in any situation that I’ve put pretty much the same amount of time into fiddling with my Linux settings as I did with my last Windows computer.

    If your hardware isn’t working properly, you have to find drivers that run on Linux; if the developer never made Linux-compatible drivers, you have to figure something else out.

    People have been talking about this for my entire life, but in the past year of my switch to Linux, it has literally never happened once. I downloaded a new, open-source driver for my drawing tablet because it had some extra features that I wanted, but even it worked out of the box. I’ve never experienced this incompatibility. Honestly I’ve never even had trouble with software I wanted not being available for my distro.

    Am I doing Linux wrong?

    Windows doesn’t have this problem.

    LOL.

    Installers made for Windows don’t need any special TLC;

    ROFL!

    you double-click them and they work.

    OH wait they’re serious?!

    Once they’re installed, they work. If you need to install a driver, it works. You open a document in Office, it works.

    Sure, if you don’t run into a permissions issue. And if the system registry doesn’t get corrupted. And if you’re not on an ARM machine. And if your TPM is the right version. And if you’re on the right subversion of Windows. And if a previous install didn’t leave some remnant of itself behind. And if you don’t want to do anything with an Apple device at all. And if sometimes you have the right fonts installed?

    Honestly, I think I’ve had fewer problems installing Linux applications than Windows applications, but I can’t attest to that. I think I can be pretty confident in saying that they’re mostly equivalent. Both of them are pretty mature platforms with fairly minimal hiccups, in my experience.

    And if something doesn’t work, we can yell at Microsoft until they publish a fix that makes it work again.

    That’s a weird way of spelling “until they ignore it for six months and then lock the support thread for inactivity.”

    Microsoft has gotten us into a state where we don’t need to think, tinker, or troubleshoot our software. We just double-click the icon and wait for it to “just work.” If it doesn’t, it’s someone else’s issue to solve, and we flood social media and support emails until the issue is resolved.

    Here I have to agree with the article, because whatever the reality of installing applications on Windows, this is the fiction they’ve sold us. Apple, too. All operating systems have troubles, and all vendors try to downplay them and fix the stuff that causes problems for most of their users. Linux is just honest about the fact that they can’t make everything a perfectly smooth experience for everyone.

    • NewNewAugustEast@lemmy.zip
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      9 days ago

      I work on a day to day basis with Microsoft products and services, including cloud environments, SQL databases, Azure lakes, etc.

      I do it ALL from Linux, and if I have to I will remote into windows machines. I do it because I don’t have time for Windows nonsense. I need my machine to work, so I can work and get paid. Linux is easy to set up and has very few surprises. It just works.

  • flop_leash_973@lemmy.world
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    9 days ago

    The problem: our desire for convenience

    This hits it right on the money. As nice as open source and open standards are, at the end of the day none of that matters to the 99% that want/need to do X as fast and painlessly as possible.

    To people like my wife MS Office/LibreOffice/Google Docs are all the same thing in the category of productivity suite. And one of those does not meet her where she lives in day to day life. And it doesn’t because there is no money in doing so for LibreOffice. And there is no benefit to her to seek out LibreOffice for her uses.

    Hell, just take a look around at the number of people that preach about the evils of Microsoft, Google, or whoever but love them an iPhone and Macbook. As bad as Microsoft and Google can be for screwing over the user with vendor lock-in they don’t hold a candle to Apple. But they get the money despite there being “better” options technically and philosophically for nearly everything they make, but Apple knows all of that pales in importance to 99% of potential customers compared to being convenient.

    • Squizzy@lemmy.world
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      9 days ago

      The piece on using the tech is a bit much. We cannot get by without a smartphone in modern life and they essentially do not exist outside of apple and google.

      • flop_leash_973@lemmy.world
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        9 days ago

        Sure they do, but all of the alternatives are not nearly as convenient. But you can absolutely get by without an iPhone or Android phone with Play services.

        The example actually proves the point more strongly than LibreOffice vs MS Office does by the increased level of effort it requires of the user to go out of their way to not actively support the bad things Apple and Google do.

        • supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz
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          9 days ago

          Sure they do, but all of the alternatives are not nearly as convenient. But you can absolutely get by without an iPhone or Android phone with Play services.

          Effectively, for most people, they don’t.

          Most people make a new phone purchase impulsively when involved with negotiating a phone plan at a store or in a rush after they break their old phone and need a new one for life and work almost immediately, the cost benefit analysis for most people simply doesn’t make sense unless they are naturally interested in tech as a hobby or it is related to their career (or are surrounded by friendly people who are).

        • sibachian@lemmy.ml
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          9 days ago

          afaik our digital identification system does not work well outside of iOS or Android (most of the time, not at all - since it breaks on updates and they update basically daily). so we’re stuck with their duopoly. because digital id is mandatory.

          Once upon a time they did support linux on desktop but then ubuntu went and decided to make a phone and linux support was mysteriously discontinued a week after.

        • Squizzy@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          Ok show me a phone that is readily available that has the ability to log into banking apps etc.

            • Squizzy@lemmy.world
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              7 days ago

              So you repkied to me qualifying that it is an effective duopoly by saying that there are other companies which is what is implied in what I said?

              Who is dense when you can’t understand the practicalities of real life and how business interact with our lives. You can get a linux phone, which is probably below .5% of market share and then sandbox android to use these apps…which is in itself necessitating the use of a google product.

              I could walk into the bank also or not talk to people but effectively there are two manufacturers with a duopoly on consumer mobile communications enviromments.

              “There are ways” is some cop out bullshit.

    • Wiz@midwest.social
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      9 days ago

      want/need to do X as fast and painlessly as possible.

      Yes, but money is a pain point. Free software eliminated that pain.