What’s up with this straight up pro-china and pro-russia stuff on Lemmy lately?
It’s not even praising the people of China and Russia, but rather their gov directly.
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
Is this some kind of organized disinformation campaign?
Communists can’t really create echo chambers, at least not in the west, because liberalism is inescapable in day to day life. Liberals can create echo-chambers (and do), because day to day life in the west is very pro-liberalism. Hexbear didn’t “seal themselves off,” they created a space where they wouldn’t be censored by liberals and fascists.
As for Lemmy.ml, it’s run by communists, but is also the main dev instance, so there’s a lot of instances that don’t want to fully isolate from the devs. That’s why I use it, actually, so I both don’t get censored for being a communist but can also speak with liberals that otherwise can’t see Hexbear.net or Lemmygrad.ml.
As for why Hexbear was defederated, Lemmy.world makes it clear that it’s an ideological incompatability:
So yes, it was because Lemmy.world is anti-communist. Same with sh.itjust.works. It isn’t because of holding strong beliefs in communism, but because of the incompatability of communism with instances like Lemmy.world.
🙄
We’re not talking about “the west” we’re talking about websites that transcend borders. This is disingenuous nonsense.
Citation needed.
Why have you written this information without providing a source for it? Is it because it was copied from directly inside said echo-chamber? Why focus solely on lemmy.world when they’re just one of many instances to defederate from them? More disingenuous nonsense.
Gee lets see you’re speaking about liberal propaganda, how terrible NATO, the IMF, and the World Bank are, how there’s an “imperial order” (the deep state) secretly running things behind the scenes and you still want to sit here claiming you don’t sound exactly like a MAGA Republican cosplaying as a communist.
So dismantle and destroy modern society with no thought about what comes after? You’d think people who claim to be so deep into communism would have some sort of vision or idea for the world they want to create based on the principles of communism, yet here you admit there is no vision other than ‘destroying liberals’ and ‘destroying the west.’ See how quickly the facade of ‘communism’ falls apart under the slightest scrutiny?
All you’re left with is fascist messaging echoing the fascist propaganda coming from people like Trump, Putin, and Netanyahu. These ideas can’t stand on their own which is why hexbear users love to brigade posts, argue in bad faith, and derail every discussion with absurd memes and ad hominem attacks once anyone pokes the slightest hole in their logic because then they dont have to defend and indefensible position.
You’re simply using “communism” as a shield to both create a built-in ‘victim’ defense and to lure in naive new users to brainwash. This is no different than Christians claiming people are attacking them for having “Christian beliefs” while they try to remove rights to LGBT individuals. Hexbear literally uses this same exact tactic by pretending to be pro-LGBT while supporting the Trump and Putin regime who has or is moving toward making it a crime to be LGBT. Sorry, but adding an option to include your pronouns next to your username while championing a dictator who imprisons people for being LGBT and legally mandates ‘conversion therapy’ doesn’t make you guys “pro-LGBT.” You’re just targeting marginalized people to lure them into your cult to build numbers. Its no different than the QAnon people, the Manoshpere people, MAGA, or any other modern cult.
Speaking of echo chambers, that straw man rant came from the halls of your mind palace.
If you had a legitimate rebuttal to anything I’ve stated, you’d be able to write more than a 15-word ad hominem reply.
I’m begging reddit liberals to stop treating the wikipedia page on logical fallacies like it’s a spell book of magical incantations that win arguments. Or at least fucking learn what ad-hominem actually means before they go spewing it everywhere.
Websites transcend borders, sure, but the China hate is largely western.
I don’t think you need a citation to know that capitalism is the dominant economic structure in the west, and that therefore liberalism is dominant.
Here’s the source, I copied exactly from Lemmy.world’s admins. You could do 5 seconds of searching or waste all that time trying to call me out for some reason.
Marxist-Leninists are against imperialism, and by extension NATO and the IMF. You just added “deep state” and pretended that made it MAGA, lmao. Just say you don’t know any communists nor what communists advocate for.
As for dismantling imperialism, obviously that’s one step, the other step is socialist revolution and replacement with an economy run collectively. This is incredibly obvious to anyone even tangentially familiar with communist theory. There isn’t a “facade of communism,” the only “facade” is the idea that you should be taken seriously.
No, you don’t have fascism, you have fanfiction. You fundamentally have no clue what communists want, why, or how we want to get there. Hexbear isn’t supporting Trump, and we aren’t “pretending” to be LGBTQ+, I’m pansexual myself.
Fundamentally, you’re an anti-communist that lacks any and all knowledge of communism. Here’s a beginner Marxist-Leninist reading list, and here’s the Party Program for the Party for Socialism and Liberation. Read both. No investigation, no right to speak.
Wait I thought we were talking about “communist hate” why are you now shifting the goalposts to “China hate?” If the west hates China so much, why do we all buy 90% of our merchandise from them?
Capitalism is also the dominant economic structure of China and Russia which is why they have groups of oligarchs and billionaires running these countries while others live in crumbling huts and factory dormitories surrounded by suicide nets, yet youre a staunch defender of these policies despite them being wildly contradictory to your stated beliefs.
I can spend time blindly searching for the sources you’re using to defend your argument?
Now that you’ve actually provided your source, I’m curious why you omitted this whole section of the post giving numerous examples of hexbear and lemmygrad users violating rules and causing drama?
With actual context, its clear why lemmy.world defederated from hexbear and lemmygrad. It’s not because of “communism” like you keep insisting with zero evidence, it’s because these two instances have zero intention of following rules, having honest discussions, making good faith arguments, and not trolling the rest of lemmy. They have every intention of proselytizing, making bad faith arguments, brigading, derailing discussions, and trolling the rest of lemmy. They’ve stated they’re waging a one-sided war against the rest of us.
Your argument here is akin to the KKK claiming they were excluded from the local middle school bake sale “because they’re Christian.” It’s an embarrassingly transparent farce of an argument.
And yet you guys support imperialist Russia during their invasion of a sovereign nation. You support imperialist China as they seize control of Tibet, Hong Kong, enslave Uyghurs, and set their sights on Taiwan. You guys support Israel’s imperialism against Gaza, the West Bank, Iran, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, and Yemen.
Would you define China and Russia as existing within this framework?
These things do sound like communist ideals, however nobody from Hexbear or Lemmygrad are espousing these ideals and therein lies the rub and why I say you guys are just cosplaying as communists. If your stated ideals were more than just a facade, you wouldn’t hesitate to criticize “the east” for violating these ideals just the same. These ideals only seem to come in to play when you want to claim that you’re being persecuted. You’re simply using it as a crutch to spread hatred and bigotry.
Right, so you just have the same stated goals, support the same policies, and support the same people but you “don’t support him.” Funny how that works.
And “Bob isn’t racist because he has a black friend.”
I never said they were “pretending to be LGBT” I said they’re “pretending to be pro-LGBT” so that they can target and recruit marginalized individuals just like every other cult in existence.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/jan/15/its-difficult-to-survive-chinas-lgbtq-advocates-face-jail-and-forced-confession
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68615477
Why the unquestionable support for these two governments when they quite drastically contradict your stated beliefs and want to imprison you? Let me guess, you’re going to say that this is all “fake news from the radical liberal media” as if you took the words right out of Donald Trump’s mouth?
This is a deeply unserious wall of slop text.
The love/hate relationship between the west and the PRC is because the PRC produces tons of the goods the west consumes, but due to being socialist it heavily controls capital and restricts foreign capital movement. The west wants to replace the PRC with a capitalist country ripe for plunder, like Russia was after the USSR.
Capitalism is not the dominant structure of the PRC, the large firms and key industries are publicly owned. Russia is capitalist, yes. The “suicide nets” were from Apple’s factory, and these same nets exist in far higher quantities in western countries.
You’re right, I didn’t quote the entire post. Shame on me for not making a wall of slop text. What’s important is that they directly state ideological incompatability as a problem, not that they list it alongside other reasons.
Lemmy.ml, Hexbear.net, and Lemmygrad.ml all have good-faith arguments, unlike your arguments here. Further, again, I provided evidence of Lemmy.world being anti-communist, such as finding the dissolution of NATO and the IMF to be fundamentally incompatible. No, it’s not like the KKK being barred, the KKK are a far-right group of racists. The left and the right are polar opposites.
Imperialism is a form of financial domination to extract huge amounts of wealth from a country, not all conflicts are imperialist in nature. Further, communists are all pro-Palestine and anti-Zionist. This is perhaps your most on-the-nose lie, conflating communism with being pro-Zionism, when the communists have consistently been the loudest anti-Zionists. Further, Tibet was liberated from slavery and theocracy, and Uyghurs are not being enslaved.
Russia is capitalist, the PRC is socialist.
Everyone on Hexbear.net and Lemmygrad.ml is an advocate for leftism. This is just a lie.
Claiming communists being pro-LGBTQ+ is just to “trap people in cults” is erasing that the most steadfast allies in the LGBTQ+ movements have been communists, like the Black Panther Party and Gay Liberation Front.
Nobody on Hexbear or Lemmygrad has the same policies, goals, or supports the same people as Trump. More slop lies.
Queer rights are improving in China. Russia is deeply socially reactionary, but its best path forward is to become socialist, not to become imperialized by the west like it was in the 90s when other social progressiveness collapsed as well.
You have no fucking clue what you’re talking about. You have no clue what communists want, what China is like, or what Hexbear.net and Lemmygrad.ml are like. You equate the left with the far-right while dogmatically repeating far-right conspiracy theories from christian nationalists like Adrian Zenz. You’re deeply unserious.
Are you referring to my comment or yours? It’s hard to be sure since if you did believe my comments are “unserious slop,” I can’t imagine why you’d keep responding with 10+ paragraph replies.
-1. They heavily control and restrict capital yet the west invests tons of capital there, has a ton of corporate presence there, and Chinese nationals invest and establish companies in the west too. What exactly is being restricted? You state “the west wants to replace the PRC with a capitalist country ripe for plunder” but fail to state why or give any evidence. There are capitalist countries ripe for plunder all over the world, so what makes China so special?
-2. You claim capitalism isn’t the dominant structure in China, yet they sell most of the world’s products for profit which is then controlled by a handful of insanely wealthy individuals with control over the government as the wealth gap between them and the average citizen increases day by day. Please tell me how this is functionally any different from the US or any other western nation?
You claim the “suicide nets were from Apple’s factory” just after claiming that “the large firms and key industries are publicly owned.” How does that make sense? Does Apple own the factory or the “public” (Chinese government). These factories are owned and operated by Foxconn not Apple, by the way.
These nets exist in far higher quantities in the west? Whataboutism (which you can’t even provide evidence of). Even if this is true, why are you defending it? I thought you hated western vslues yet here you are claiming that this abhorrent practice is okay because it’s also conducted in the west. That’s illogical.
-3. What part of the section I quoted is “slop text?” Seems you’re giving that label to everything you don’t like without providing any reasoning. This is just a cheap trick to discredit something without justification not unlike how Donald Trump labeled a bunch of people as terrorists without evidence. Why do I keep catching you using right-wing rhetoric?
What you’re omitting here is that the “ideological difference” isn’t capitalism versus communism, it’s “healthy open discussion” versus “disinformation trolls on a warpath.”
-4. If they have good faith arguments than why did most instances conduct polls where their users voted heavily in favor of defederating from hexbear and lemmygrad? You seem to want to focus on a single instance’s justification, tying it to some sort of conspiracy between a handful of individuals to ‘silence’ you for ‘being communist’ while ignoring that a majority of the lemmy userbase agrees that these two instances are full of bad actors spreading propaganda. Go read the nearly 1,000 comments on your source post that agree with this decision.
Furthermore, here you are again trying to claim my arguments are in bad faith while on your 3rd or 4th massive reply to my comments. You wouldn’t bother putting this much effort in if you truly believed that.
Yes the left and right are polar opposites. That is a true statement. However, like most propaganda, true statements like this get peppered in to give credibility to the rest of the message. Considering I’m arguing that these instances just cosplay as leftists, this doesn’t really help your case.
-5. Imperialism comes in all forms whether it be physical control, economic control, or political control. You haven’t stated what part of my comment you’re referencing here so I’m going to assume you’re responding to my mention of Russia, China, and Israel’s imperialist actions. It seems pretty sad to claim that one nation invading and controlling another sovereign nation’s territory isn’t “imperialist” simply because they’re not doing it by economic means. This is a perfect example of a bad faith argument. It reminds me of George W. Bush claiming that his administration wasn’t engaging in the torture of POWs, but instead engaging in “enhanced interrogation.” More right-wing Orwellian rhetoric.
Communists may be pro-palestine and anti-zionist, but again the argument here is whether these instances are even communist to begin with. This reads like you’re giving a pass to imperialism while again using “communism” as a ‘persecution shield.’
Tibet was ‘liberated’ just like Iraq and Afghanistan were liberated too, right? It’s funny how the outside entity gets to decide what’s best for an independent group of people. “Uyghurs aren’t enslaved” claims the people accused of enslaving them. I suppose they’re just making things up or perhaps they’re “CIA backed terrorists” like this other user claimed? It seems pretty odd that the US would think that manufacturing a fake genocide against the Uyghurs would have any influence on anyone in the world, while we’re currently denying the existence of the genocide in Gaza that’s been happening for nearly two years now with very little pushback from the rest of the world. Seems that most governments couldn’t care less about genocide.
-6. One is capitalist and the other is socialist according to you but then why are both staunchly defended by this group of “communists?” Explain that.
-7. I dont think its accurate to speak for an entire group of strangers. Surely you don’t think anyone would take a statement like this seriously?
-8. I didn’t claim anything of the sort. These instances blindly support dictatorships that are openly and extremely hostile to LGBT individuals. What I said was that they’re targeting marginalized individuals to recruit them into their cult and that they aren’t really “pro-LGBT” by virtue of supporting individuals that see them as less than human, who restrict their right to exist, who imprison and kill them. I do believe that communists are great allies to LGBT individuals, but I don’t believe hexbear and lemmygrad are populated with communists just opportunists.
-9. I’ve pointed out at least half a dozen examples of right-wing rhetoric coming from just your handful of comments alone let alone the bulk of hexbear and lemmygrad. You claim “nobody” there supports him while unquestionably championing the few fascist allies Trump has like Putin. Make that make sense.
-10. Rights are improving in China yet they’ve began cracking down on pro-LGBT speech online in just the past year. Are you unable to provide any examples of these improvements to counter the examples I provided? Why is that?
Who’s suggesting that Russia be imperialized and why are you deflecting to discussing an imaginary western invasion of Russia as a defense against the very real examples I provided of Russia imprisoning people for discussing pro-LGBT topics? What a strange rebuttal.
You claim to want Russia to become socialist, but do you think Putin is the person to implement that? If so, why hasn’t he done it at any point in the past 20 years? If not, why is he viewed as a god-like figure over in these communities and staunchly defended at every turn?
Seems like I do have a clue since I’ve obviously struck a nerve and keep getting replies, meaning you think my words hold some weight and must be argued down. I’ve never equated the left with the far-right. I’ve simply equated these two instances and their language with the far-right and you continue to provide me with more examples of support for far-right rhetoric, policies, and leadership.
I wasn’t familiar with Adrian Zenz, but after briefly reading about him, you’re claiming this anthropologist who exposed the Uyghur Muslim genocide is a “right-wing Christian nationalist?” Why then is he bothering to write academic papers decrying genocide and defending Muslims that live on the other side of the planet? Those are all topics diametrically opposed to right-wing Christian nationalism.
I mean your comment is slop, from someone who has never done a millisecond of research on any of these subjects, and it bleeds through in every paragraph of slop you write.
Reform and Opening Up allows foreign investment in certain, controlled areas, while giving overall control to the CPC in exchange for doing business. These are done through “special economic zones.”
Socialism is categorized by public ownership being the principle aspect of the economy, not the absence of private property. Apple does some business in the PRC, but it isn’t a Chinese company, and its extent is limited. Most of the top industries are state owned and run.
It’s slop because you copied and pasted nearly the entirety of a lemmy post. Your comments are near illegible because of your awful formatting. Further, they directly state that the dismantle of imperialist systems like NATO and the IMF are against Lemmy.world’s interests, that us fundamentally a pro-imperialist and anti-communist stance.
Being good-faith and having liberals oppose communism are not incompatible concepts.
Imperialism is a thoroughly understood and clear subject, it isn’t a vibe. Further, you have no evidence of Hexbear or Lemmygrad being “right-wing,” at all, you’ve just made shit up or otherwise expressed that you’ve never read Marx and don’t know any communists. Read Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth and the Qiao Collective Xinjiang resource list.
The PRC is socialist, and is supported for that. Russia is critically supported, understood as a higjly flawed system but acts against the main contradiction impeding socialism today, the west, due to their need to do so. They are also forced into alliance with socialist countries like China, Cuba, etc.
If you aren’t a leftist on Hexbear.net or Lemmygrad.ml, you get banned, quickly. Simple as that.
You have no evidence of Hexbear or Lemmygrad being opportunists, we have a ton of queer people. Occam’s Razor makes it clear, we all genuinely want queer liberation. Your argument is the same as the Zionists that say queer people should oppose Palestine because Israel is legally nicer to queer people, ignoring literal genocide, and that the best path for social movement in Palestine is first getting Palestinian liberation.
You’ve pointed out nothing of the sort, either expressed confusion on communist views or literally made shit up like when you said communists support Israel.
Jin Xing, a transwoman, is one of China’s top celebrities. In China, the younger generation is pro-LGBTQ+, the older is more conservative, and over time this leads to gradual social change. The central government is not really anti-LGBTQ+, but local governments can be. This is a gradual change. As for Russia, Putin doesn’t want it to be socialist, but KPRF membership is skyrocketing and trade with socialist countries is showing that Russia doesn’t need to stay in this mode of production.
Adrian Zenz is employed by the far-right US state-funded propaganda outlet “Victims of Communism,” a propaganda outlet that considers Nazis killed in World War 2 as victims of communism. Zenz is a paid propagandist that claims he was sent by God to punish China.
Overall, you have done no research on anything, have no idea what communists want or what we think, or what Hexbear or Lemmygrad wants or thinks. You’re full of shit.
Russia would become imperialist if it could, but it presently isn’t in a position to[1], and our “support” is very limited[2].
China is in no way imperialist[3], and we’ve gone over Tibet, Hong Kong, Xinjiang, and Taiwan a thousand times already[4][5], even in this very post.
You’re just linking to your own comments here (or linking to your own comments that then link to more of your own comments). Why bother? That’s not an independent source of information it’s just your personal opinion. This is peak echo-chamber behavior.
Seems your whole justification for why all these imperialist actions are ‘a okay’ boils down to everyone being a terrorist, a CIA plant, or they’re being ‘liberated’ from the west. You’re just mimicking the rhetoric we hear from every fascist dictator on a crusade. They never come out and just admit to being power hungry imperialists. They always make up the flimsiest justifications for why their abhorrent behavior is okay and people like you help them spread their message. Right now, you’re the guy telling us about how all these brown people being kidnapped and trafficked to an El Salvadorian gulag are criminal terrorists here to destroy the US. If this were the 1960s you’d be the guy telling us how Vietnam is a threat to our freedom. If this were the 1930s, you’d be telling us that the Jews are a threat to our way of life. In all cases, you’d be quite wrong.
Because I brought a truckload of receipts to those comments.
That’s not how any of this works. If Hitler says the sky is blue, that doesn’t mean I’m mimicking him when I say it.
A straw man you just made up about me. I’ve never once mentioned El Salvador on Lemmy.
More imaginary stories you’re making up in your head about me. Deeply unserious.
Your “truckload of receipts” are just links to more of your own comments. That’s not a receipt.
That’s true, however if Hitler said “the Jews are terrorist cells that must be eradicated” to your “the Uyghurs are terrorist cells that must be eradicated” we’d have a much more accurate comparison of what is being stated here.
That was actually a comparison to your rhetoric. Do you think that I believe you were also alive in the 1960s and 1930s too?
Hmm where have I heard this verbiage before? What an odd turn of phrase to hear from two separate accounts replying to my single comment. Are you both the same person or is unique phrase just more “definitely not an echo-chamber” rhetoric?
Deeply unserious.
Wrong again. Here are the receipts from those comments of mine: