Look, we’re talking past each other.

I don’t believe that any judge or person in general should be forced to perform a ceremony of a different religion or belief system. I agree with you on that point, because full ceremonies are indeed performances with a lot of layered, cultural meanings.

The issue here is you are then taking that and asserting that any proceeding that is more involved than signing a piece of paper is, in fact, a ceremony. This is where we differ, and I’ll tell you why: by that definition, signing the paper is ceremonial.

Yes, it does record a real world event. But that is a ceremony that we have culturally come to accept after a long history of doing it. We could have come up with many other types of ceremonies to confirm a contract - it could have been a wax seal, or using a broke stick like stocks originally were. Anything can fit the definition of ceremony if you squint hard enough.

So, what’s a reasonable place for us to draw the line? I would argue that the current status quo is not particularly religious or meaningful outside of the contract.

The officiant confirms that both parties understand what is happening, that this is a contract that will legally bind them together. It’s very serious. Be very sure.

Then, they announce that the couple is officially wed, and they sign the document.

Last, they usually say “you may kiss” or something to that effect.

The most objectionable thing here is the final statement, but even that is hardly objectionable. It is a statement of fact and does not imply any level of endorsement beyond confirming that the deed is done.

This is a very, very small formality. There are courtroom procedures that are more lengthy and involved than this regularly. But you are pushing to say this counts as a ceremony, because if it does, then the judge doesn’t have to do this and she’s in the right.

I just don’t buy it. The only part of that which can be called remotely ceremonial is the statement about kissing, and honestly if the judge refused to say that in the end I would not care. But every other part is a reasonable procedure to make sure both parties understand the stakes, are not being coerced, etc.

Ok, cool. Law should be updated. Noted.

In the meantime, here in reality, I know this because I got married at city hall as a formality and my wife and I tried to just have it signed, since our real ceremony was months later. We were refused, because according to the clerk, we needed to follow a full procedure.

Stop arguing in bad faith, you’re just plain wrong here. Until laws and procedures actually change, the fact is that those are the minimum requirements and she refused to do them.

The point is that it’s part of standard process and procedure, and she made an off-duty judge come in on her day off to do it instead.

It’s an asshole move. She should not be a public servant if she intends to hold up proceedings based on her beliefs. Especially one with authority like a judges.

The ceremony aspect of marriage is not just a ceremony, it’s a requirement. Asking the basic questions is part of the court procedure, it’s what makes an officiant different than a notary.

She refused to sign the paper, essentially.

Yes, because in order for the marriage to happen, you need an officiant to ask some questions of both parties and confirm that they know what they signed and that it was all above board. That is not a performance, that is standard court procedure and the minimum requirement to get married.

This was a court proceeding, look at the actual article. The marriage happened in court.

By the sound of it, she was the on-duty judge at city hall. It was a public service because it’s the most basic kind of legal marriage, a courthouse marriage. There is barely any ceremony or performance, and lots of people do it prior to the real ceremony because it is considered a formality.

Why shouldn’t a public servant who is assigned that duty be required to follow through? I understand not wanting to do it if it’s a whole ordeal, but if this is the bare minimum required to formalize a marriage, should that not always be available to all people regardless of their race, sex, etc?

This really conflicts with the idea that, as platforms, websites are not legally liable for the content their user’s produce. At least at a high level, it feels like those two should be mutually exclusive. If X owns all of the accounts on its site, it should be legally liable for all of them. If X is not legally liable, it should imply some amount of individual ownership.

Like, yes federation is better and we should be pushing for it, but also, we should be trying to push for better regulation of incumbent social media platforms too if we can. Seems unlikely but we can try.

Yeah, I get that. I again want to take a second to acknowledge that children are hard when it comes to this stuff. I absolutely understand that people have hesitation around considering minors transitioning, I think that’s really valid and it’ll probably be a common feeling for decades, if not longer. I want to be a parent soon myself, and even though I’m trans, I’ve thought about “what if my kid is trans?” And tbh that gives me a lot of anxiety and worry. I’d much rather not have to deal with that 😅

My path was also not 100% clear. Some trans people describe knowing since they were 4, or 8, or as soon as puberty started. I didn’t really start questioning until 19-20 or so, and I didn’t transition until 32. I would say I knew something was off for a lot longer, but it took me a while to figure out what that was. It was also a very confusing process, and I tried literally everything before accepting this. I remember being a teen and a young adult and thinking “this is it, this will fix things” so many times, only for it not to work out. It’s why I had given up.

So I really get why it’s like, scary to let someone who’s still growing and learning make decisions that will change their path permanently.

At the same time, that journey was really, really hard. There were times I wasn’t sure I would make it. I got into some really bad places, mentally and in real life. I sometimes wonder if it would have been easier, if I had figured this out sooner. And I do believe there are people who know much sooner, who just have that sense internally that they are a different gender, a much stronger internal compass than mine. That would have been torture to deal with if I had known that.

I lost a brother to suicide, and I know a lot of trans youth are at risk. So all of that and my own experience is why I really feel that this path should be navigated between the parent, the child, and their doctors. It’s just not going to be an easy process, no matter what, and I don’t think anyone can do it perfectly. I don’t blame parents who hold back on affirming strongly, but I do hope in time there’s less worry and fear about this, as we spread knowledge and our experience. Especially around social transition and just trying things out and experimenting. That’s the best way to get more real information - does the child actually like living as the opposite gender, doing things like that? If they do, it’s still scary, but you know that they aren’t just imagining the grass is greener. And if not, then cool! It really was “just a phase” lol.

Thanks for listening, it’s very much appreciated ❤️ you sound like a good parent and a kind person.

I just want to say as a trans person, first off, your views are very valid. I think it’s actually great that despite your misgivings you respect the principle of bodily autonomy, which I very much agree with myself. Totally think this is a good take.

I also wanted to give my 2 cents on the experience itself. You liken transition to body modification, and there definitely are parallels. But in my experience, the two are distinct. Like, I have both dysmorphia at times, and dysphoria at others. I’m not 100% happy with my body after transition, but now it’s like, less because I look like a guy and more because I look like a girl but, maybe not with the ideal body I wanted. When that first hit me, my wife told me “welcome to womanhood” and I laughed a little (and cried a little) because it was true, I’d never known a woman who didn’t struggle with her body image.

I also just, can’t really explain how much my mental health has improved. I had terrible anxiety when I entered puberty, and it wasn’t about gender or anything (that I was aware of at the time, anyways). It was almost just like my brain started malfunctioning. I got quieter, I overthought everything, I self medicated with weed and alcohol, became kind of aimless. Then I turned it around, got my career going, got married, worked on myself. I still drank to take the edge off and be able to socialize, but put on a face at parties and figured out how to push through the anxiety. I tried therapy, medication, meditation, you name it, but it never really got too much better, I just got better at working around it.

I had kinda given up on there being an “answer”. I just figured, you know, this is life for me. Not bad, just hard. And then this thing happened, where a lot of stuff I had been pushing down all came up at once. And I transitioned.

I really, really didn’t think it would “solve” things. Like, I thought it felt right, that it would make things better. But I was trying not to get my hopes up. And at first it didn’t, like hormones didn’t really immediately fix everything. It was more subtle. It was like… like slowly waking up from a long and tiring nightmare. The kind you don’t remember much of, you just keep that vague sense of unease for a while.

It’s been a year and a half. I can go to parties and not drink now, and just, relax. Have fun. Socialize. I can make friends and talk to strangers. I still have anxiety, I still have problems, but like, my brain just works better. I don’t know how else to describe it. I make connections I never did before, understand people and empathize with them more.

I feel happy. Not in a like, “this is new and exciting” kind of way, but a sort of deep contentedness. Peace.

I don’t think this is a silver bullet. It doesn’t solve all your problems, and it sure as hell won’t solve anything for a cis person. It just helps to take a constant burden out of the way. And for me, even if there had been 0 physical changes, I would 100% take estrogen just for the mental effects it has had alone. It’s been the best mental healthcare I have ever received.

Yes, definitely agree it should require the doctor to approve as well, and the child should also consent. The point is that the government is interfering with both parents and doctors by stepping in. Feels very much like your body, my choice here.

Obviously it would only be if the doctors and parents approved together. Point being, the government is stepping in and overriding my parental rights and my doctor’s recommendation just because someone else does not agree.

And I don’t see parents voting for bans, none of these have been initiatives. These are law makers.

Why are we debating this at all, shouldn’t it be the decision of the parents? You don’t agree, that’s fine, you can tell your kids no. If someone else looks at the evidence and believes it’s true, and believes this is hugely beneficial to their kid, why should the government have a say in their kid’s medical treatment?