• secretlyaddictedtolinux@lemmy.world
    0·
    6 months ago

    I have a question. I am partly ethnically Jewish and have not educated myself on this conflict. I haven’t done that because I figured I am too biased to form an option on this, despite not feeling particularly Jewish. I am also very concerned and fearful about Islam because of their views on LGBT people and notice that when Islam spreads, even in mild or moderate form, often it results in a certain percentage becoming radicalized, thereby harming LGBT people. There are zero Muslim dominant countries that are nice to LGBT people. That being said, by doing nothing, am I condoning genocide? I could donate to an organization that is non-political like donating food to the people in Palestine who are supposedly starving through an organization. I’ve done nothing and have been somewhat purposefully ignorant of the facts because I know they are all so awful, and I am often dealing with depression anyway. I’m also not doing well financially so whatever I do and think may not matter. Is there a way to become educated on this topic with unbiased facts that aren’t influenced by religious ideas? How many Palestinian people are facing genocide and is this hyperbole? Am I the same as the people who just ignored the Holocaust in World War II? I also know the Palestinian elected Hamas which wanted to destroy Israel completely, which provides a safe sanctuary to Jewish people, and that the Jewish people made it hard for Palestinians to have many freedoms through oppression or harsh regulation even before the attack that happened when Palestinian terrorists/warlords/protestors killed a lot of people including children. I don’t have an opinion on things and am worried my ignorance is evil. I feel like this meme is partly about people like me and perhaps it should change me.

    • emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works
      0·
      6 months ago

      I haven’t done that because I figured I am too biased to form an option on this

      Some of the most impactful voices against this genocide are Jewish.

      That being said, by doing nothing, am I condoning genocide?

      Yes. Genocide is genocide, irrespective of who it is aimed at or what else they did.

      I could donate to an organization that is non-political like donating food to the people in Palestine who are supposedly starving through an organization … I’m also not doing well financially so whatever I do and think may not matter. … Am I the same as the people who just ignored the Holocaust in World War II?

      If you can afford to, then by all means donate. If you can’t, that’s fine. You are not responsible for things beyond your control. What you can do is try to learn more about the history of this conflict, and be honest with yourself. Again, you have limited time and resources, so no one is asking you to research every atrocity going on in the world.

      How many Palestinian people are facing genocide and is this hyperbole?

      Palestine is now divided into two pieces - the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Those living on the Gaza strip are now facing genocide.

      Israel … provides a safe sanctuary to Jewish people

      To some Jewish people. Palestinian and African Jews face discrimination from white Jews.

      The Jewish people made it hard for Palestinians to have many freedoms through oppression or harsh regulation even before the attack that happened.

      The Israeli government did this. Many Israelis opposed and even protested this.

      I feel like this meme is partly about people like me and perhaps it should change me.

      I think it is more about hypocritical politicians and ‘reporters’. It is great that you want to learn more. Be warned though - some of the things being done in Gaza are very fucked up.

    • Wes4Humanity@lemm.ee
      0·
      6 months ago

      Hey man, you’re asking the right questions. There’s not really anything you can do except be willing to say what Israel is doing is wrong. Calling your representative in Congress is free, and the more they hear from us the more they’ll pay attention.

      On a personal note, a lot of this would be good stuff to bring to therapy, especially if you struggle with depression. Just if you don’t already have one, I’d highly recommend speaking to one to work through some of these big important questions you’re having.

      • secretlyaddictedtolinux@lemmy.world
        0·
        6 months ago

        I don’t know if what they are doing is wrong. I am incredibly ignorant about this topic, and even after reading the posts in the thread, a lot of the information is contradictory and seems mutually exclusive in some ways. In other words, someone is providing an incorrect perspective or incorrect information and it’s not as though both perspectives somehow can coexist logically. My gut feels like Palestinians are probably been treated in an unethical way, but I still feel ignorant of everything.

        I also don’t really understand what Israel should be doing instead. What do protester’s claim Israel should be doing differently?

        I don’t believe in therapy.

  • some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org
    0·
    6 months ago

    Look, the point is that you can’t believe the thousands of videos of Israel geocoding people. And you can’t believe the dozens (or more) videos of them saying it on their local television talkshows. It’s simply too complicated, you fucking nitwits. Now tow the party line; we have a genocide to help them complete.

    • Semi-Hemi-Lemmygod@lemmy.worldEnglish
      0·
      6 months ago

      FYI, it’s “toe” the line, as in you put your toe on the line when you fall in order. It’s a nautical term, since crews would line up on specific boards on the deck of a ship.

    • AbsentBird@lemm.ee
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      6 months ago

      Hamas supports genocide against Jews. I think that’s the essence of the complexity, both sides of the conflict seek the eradication of the other. If we removed all weapons and defenses from Israel it wouldn’t be enough to stop the bloodshed, it would just change which people were dying. The first step to a lasting peace is to end the genocide in Gaza, but it will take many more steps to reach the goal.

      • Cyclohexane@lemmy.ml
        0·
        6 months ago

        Hamas supports genocide against Jews

        They have continuously denied these claims. What you are referencing was their manifesto when they were a fringe group that most Palestinians opposed. Hamas has long withdrawn that document

        • AbsentBird@lemm.ee
          0·
          6 months ago

          Was the 2017 revision fully ratified? Even the revised charter seeks the destruction of Israel. To me it seems obvious that religion underscores the conflict, but even viewed as a territorial dispute, it’s clear that lasting peace is a challenging puzzle.

          • Cyclohexane@lemmy.ml
            0·
            6 months ago

            The destruction of the settler colonial and genocidal state where racism and treating Palestinians as second class citizens is part of its foundation is a good thing, and must not be mistaken for “the destruction of jews”. The charter explains this disambiguation.

            • AbsentBird@lemm.ee
              0·
              6 months ago

              Do you not see how that complicates the conflict? It’s not as simple as Israel ending the genocide to stop the violence, they would need to cease to exist.

  • Scubus@sh.itjust.works
    0·
    6 months ago

    I haven’t heard any liberals trying to “both sides” the issue. I have heard Republicans expressing their support for the genocide though.

    • lemonmelon@lemmy.world
      0·
      6 months ago

      It’s likely that the use of “Western Liberals” here is meant to include both major US political parties.

      • Lightor@lemmy.world
        0·
        6 months ago

        I see people agreeing it’s complex, because it is. But the majority of liberals I see, across multiple mediums, are against this. Not all of course, %100 of a group rarely does something, but anyone in these comments both siding this while also just oddly admitting to being liberal are not the majority.

    • crusa187@lemmy.ml
      0·
      6 months ago

      You didn’t hear the US state dept repeatedly claiming “Israel has a right to defend itself” for 6 straight months after the Hamas attack? They still won’t let corpo media use the term genocide, some high profile reporters have even resigned over it.

    • Xanis@lemmy.world
      0·
      6 months ago

      You won’t see many of us both side shit regarding this. It’s an attempt to genocide, pretty easy. What you will see are people, often very angry, who immediately make assumptions, claim we are genocide lovers, and refuse to listen to literally anything, including their target agreeing with them. Tbh part of me feels as if Republicans are in the comment sections trying to split hairs and widen divisions at times.

    • Highalectical@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
      0·
      6 months ago

      My brother in Christ, our president is literally Joedolf “if there wasn’t an Israel, we would have to invent an Israel to secure our interests in the region” Bidler.

  • Fizz@lemmy.nz
    0·
    6 months ago

    Genocide experts? How many Genocides did they commit to get that title.

  • Nobody@lemmy.worldEnglish
    0·
    6 months ago

    “We understand this is a hard one to swallow, but the Mossad handlers AIPAC lobbyists told us that the Palestinians all spontaneously killed themselves after blowing up their homes. On the one hand, that’s obviously bullshit. But on the other, they give us SO MUCH MONEY.”

  • niktemadur@lemmy.world
    0·
    6 months ago

    The events of October 7th, 2023, must also be addressed, or else any morally-superior pronouncements are going nowhere either fast or slow, any speed you choose is equally pointless.

    The victims of Palestine are cannon fodder for both Hamas and Israel, both sides have made each hate the other with unfiltered rage.

  • lurch (he/him)@sh.itjust.works
    0·
    6 months ago

    this is stupid, because it can be (and probably often is) both, a genocide and a complex issue. acknowledging the complexity of a situation that grew 80 years into this doesn’t mean you swipe an ongoing genocide under the rug or have to be complicit.

    • lone_faerie@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
      0·
      6 months ago

      There’s a difference between being a genocide and a complex issue, and using that it’s a complex issue to justify/overlook a genocide

    • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
      0·
      6 months ago

      U lOvE gEnOcIdE tHeN

      -an asshole who would burn down his country to supposedly make a point

    • orcrist@lemm.ee
      0·
      6 months ago

      The simple issue is that this is genocide. Full stop.

      And we should stop it. After that, let’s look into the complex issue you’re trying to raise. Conflating the two is how people justify doing nothing.

      • secretlyaddictedtolinux@lemmy.world
        0·
        6 months ago

        There was a graph earlier in pdf format that showed the total number of people of killed and it didn’t look like an amount of people that would equate to genocide, which does not lessen the tragedy for people affected by it. Is the graph wrong? Does it misrepresent the situation?

        • bl_r@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          0·
          6 months ago

          And that’s one of the ways you justify a genocide when it is happening. It is also how you deny that it happened.

          Genocide is more than a sudden and total purge like what the nazis did. To set the bar like that allows other forma of genocide, especially doing so at a slow pace, or other forms of ethnic cleansing like mass sterilization.

          A similar amount of people died in gaza compared to the bosnian genocide

        • Slotos@feddit.nl
          0·
          6 months ago

          Genocide is not a numbers competition. Fucking get lost with that narrative.

          Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide is literally four pages long, with barely 30% fill. It takes less than 10 minutes to read it fully. It takes one minute to get to the part that you directly contradict.

          • secretlyaddictedtolinux@lemmy.world
            0·
            6 months ago

            you’re right about this, i was wrong. i said early on in my comments i was concerned i may be viewing this with bias and am very ignorant about what is going on, and i’m trying to be open to understanding the situation more and set aside my bias. i was completely wrong earlier when i said the numbers don’t line up with genocide and fundamentally just made a large error.

      • newDayRocks@lemmy.world
        0·
        6 months ago

        The complex part is that, if you stop the “genocide”, innocent people will still die (Oct 7). And if somehow this side you are protecting wins the conflict or even just gets the upper hand, then there will be a real, old fashioned type of genocide where they won’t be swayed by world opinion.

        • bl_r@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          0·
          6 months ago

          You are conflating a small fringe group with millions of people. You are using this conflation to justify an ongoing conflict that is a genocide.

          You are denying this genocide. And now you are saying that we need this genocide to prevent a genocide.

          You are either a fascist or unknowingly supporting a fascist ideology. Get help.

          • newDayRocks@lemmy.world
            0·
            6 months ago

            I’m differentiating this type of genocide with the type Palestine will undoubtedly perform if the shoe was on the other foot, hence why the issue is not simple.

            Lemmy keeps trying to push this idea that if the fighting stopped today and there was a ceasefire or peace, that Oct 7 wouldn’t just repeat at a later date. How many decades have we played this same song and yet the small fringe community here wants to pretend it will be different this time?

            And no matter how you want to frame that train of thought, or try to label it fascist etc, not agreeing to make peace with Hamas is not the same as condoning genocide. The fringe minority you claim is still in power and they still have hostages. They still enjoy the support of the Palestinians as they did on Oct 7. Hamas made Gaza a war zone, to not be against Israel fighting in said war zone is not supporting genocide.

        • Cyclohexane@lemmy.ml
          0·
          6 months ago

          if you stop the “genocide”, innocent people will still die (Oct 7).

          This implies genocide started after October 7th. Please do basic research on the issue and you’ll find that’s not true. I’m happy to provide you links if you need.

            • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
              0·
              6 months ago

              And you are implying that people fighting back against a genocidal aparthied state is equivalent to said genocide.

              • AbsentBird@lemm.ee
                0·
                6 months ago

                It does get complicated when Hamas claims to want the death or displacement of all the Jews in Israel. Both peoples have been failed by their leadership. You can’t fight back against one genocide with a different genocide and expect anything to improve.

                • Cyclohexane@lemmy.ml
                  0·
                  6 months ago

                  You want it to be complicated given you’re citing a claim from the last century that has been withdrawn, and Hamas has undergone a massive shift since. Moreover, no matter how bad Hamas is, it does not excuse genocide. So no, it is not complicated when we identify a genocide.

                • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
                  0·
                  6 months ago

                  Hamas is a creation of Israel’s genocide and aparthied. Eliminate the genociee and aparthied, and Hamas is forced to either change character or crumble.

                  This is an unequal conflict in every measure, equalizing the sides is genocide denial.

      • HopFlop@discuss.tchncs.de
        0·
        6 months ago

        Stopping Israel from doing anything would mean opening them to limitless attacks by the Hamas, who are the whole reason this war is happening in the first place.

    • bl_r@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      0·
      6 months ago

      This, but kinda. (Rant incoming, i’m not disagreeing with you tho, and don’t think I’m accusing you of doing this, you aren’t)

      Long term stability is complex in the sense that it is a long term plan.

      But in the short term, you can make simpler decisions to put yourself on the path towards long term stability. Once you get on that path you could be solving some smaller complexities that made it so hard in the past.

      This isn’t saying achieving peace is easy. There will be some hard things that must be done, and those difficult things will certainly have complexity, but saying long term peace itself is complex is actually a way to make doing things now difficult

      There’s this one technique used by propagandists and talking heads to make taking action hard, and it’s got a few names, notably complexity trolling or nuance trolling. Essentially the goal is to set the bar for current action high enough that it becomes almost impossible to surpass, or to make it hard to commentate on it, or to make it painful for activists to do activism because each time they try, some cunt on fox news says “You see, you can’t solve climate change with sloganeering. It is too complicated.”

      Another thing that happens is when you see a simple step towards achieving peace, you see people inject complexity/nuance into it to make the discussion suddenly super complex and convoluted. This serves to make current action hard to do, and continue the status quo. This serves to make activists look silly, and make inaction the only action an average person can take.

      This isn’t to say the conflicts or the solutions as a whole are simple. But if you let complexities of a long term vision constantly be injected into the steps to take now, you end up putting the cart before the horse.

      • DontTakeMySky@lemmy.world
        0·
        6 months ago

        if you let complexities of a long term vision constantly be injected into the steps to take now, you end up putting the cart before the horse.

        This exactly. Honestly at this moment I don’t really give a shit about long term stability as long as a genocide is happening, but we keep seeing that thrown out as a reason to ignore genocide.

        (Not to mention the arguments of if it’s technically genocide or “just” ethnic cleansing. That’s a problem for the international courts, all that matters now is that whatever it is, it’s too damn close to genocide to be acceptable.)

  • not_that_guy05@lemmy.world
    0·
    6 months ago

    This is a dumb take. “Liberals” have been protesting this war as well. It’s not complicated, now, that you are listening to moderate liberals is a different story. Might as well say swing voters.

  • Daft_ish@lemmy.world
    0·
    6 months ago

    Yasmine said that?!? This changes everything. I don’t form opinions until it’s in a tweet and reposted somewhere else.

    The most important part is the argument must have a punch line. I can’t do anything until I hear the punch line.