I get that anything is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. That’s besides the point. My point is, beyond speculation, what do crypto coins represent?
I also understand that the value of the US dollar is being questioned almost as much without the backing of gold.
But what I really want to know is what is at the foundation level of Bitcoin that people are buying into?
I have a basic understanding of the blockchain, etc. I sold 1BTC in 2017 for $1200 when I thought that was as high as it would go. At this point, at over $100kUSD and rising steadily, what is the $ limit and what is that limit based upon? I thought it was based on the value of mining to check transactions but this seems… not worth $100k to me.
I’ve been thinking, the only tangible value I personally see in Bitcoin, because it’s not really being used as legitimate currency, is for criminals. By now, there must be trillions of dollars in BTC acquired by criminals holding corporations hostage. When you’ve got people like Trump involved (either explicitly or by way of manipulation) with an executive order to establish a crypto czar, this suggests to me that he’s creating pathways for bad actors to more effectively gain more wealth. These are the people who are most excited in Bitcoin, beyond speculation.
I mean, there’s little to nothing on the up and up with crypto, right? It’s a scam. Right?
Please, factual answers only. I’m looking for someone to dispel my speculation with genuine economics of the matter.
It’s value is in remittance if nothing else. It’s cheaper than western union. But the network is only “cheaper” in that way because it has distributed the costs of running the network to the speculating miners who solve pointless puzzles with monsterously greedy processing farms hoping to win the lottery and get back more than they put in. It’s a ponzi scheme, it takes more from everyone who came later and gives the value to early adopters who were there when you could solo mine coins with whatever hardware and a bitcoin was worth 7 dollars in exchange. Look up how many coins Satoshi is supposedly holding. If they were to cash out even a small fraction the whole market would crash. So use it as a remittance service but not an asset if you must. This from someone who mined 27k worth of it back when it was 7$ and spent it all on illicit medical cannabis before it inflated to 50k
I believe I’ve seen recent cost analysis of using crypto exchanges to transfer money across international borders instead of doing direct conversion through whatever “classical” money transfer service and it showed that due to exchange rates, price fluctuations between crypto exchanges, gas fees, and fiat exchange rates into and out of crypto from usd to whatever currency of the recipient its actually tangibly cheaper to just use a direct wire transfer and currency exchange.
I’ll have to see if I saved the post with the price breakdowns to send you but I just wanted to share that in case you hadn’t heard about it yet. If you had seen that and did find it cheaper somewhere else I’d also be interested to hear where it is actually cheaper. That’s just the most recent analysis I had seen of the costs to exchange from fiat to crypto, send internationally, and then withdraw it in the native currency.
Rip to the millions you smoked away btw lol I would’ve done the exact same honestly
USD FX pairs are currently cheaper using traditional transfers.
However going from a non G20 currency to another non G20 currency can be much cheaper using crypto.
Ah thats interesting, yeah the study i saw was specifically looking at usd to pesos. Good to know!
So you know how fiat currency is backed by nothing more than the fact the government says it’s valuable and we all agree to that? Crypto is sort of like that except without the government bit
Yup, all boils down to faith in the currency. For something like the dollar, it’s backed by faith in the US government. For something like Bitcoin, it’s backed by faith in the resilience of the blockchain and the value buyers place on it. Emperor Norton minted his own currency which was accepted all around San Francisco based purely on the fact that people accepted it.
It’s a lot more backed by the faith that if you don’t manage to get some you go to jail.
But I can buy anything with fiat curency and with bitcoin I can basically buy nothing. And I never will be able probably, bitcoin is too slow to be used as an actual curency to buy common things like groceries
People buy big ticket items like cars and houses with bitcoin, not chocolate bars.
bitcoin is a bad currency but you absolutely can buy legal things. like, check shopinbit. there’s also a similar website that buys the thing for you from amazon
Except the lack of government AND the massive amount of pollution and resources waste.
Fiat currency is backed by taxation, which can only be paid in the very same currency that the taxer prints.
📺 Your Taxes Pay for NothingSome states have been looking into allowing you to pay your taxes with crypto, so checkmate atheists.
No stable state with a strong currency would ever do that.
Based on … What exactly? Your gut feelings?
the only tangible value I personally see in Bitcoin, because it’s not really being used as legitimate currency, is for criminals.
Please, factual answers only.
In 2021, 0.15% of known cryptocurrency transactions conducted were involved in illicit activities like cybercrime, money laundering and terrorism financing
Is that by total number of transactions or by bitcoin volume?
I copied that from Wikipedia which got their reference from through NY times.
For specific details, this is probably a better source https://www.trmlabs.com/resources/reports/the-illicit-crypto-ecosystem-report-2022
You’re gonna have to give me a source for that buddy.
It came from here but this source has more detail.
sounds like the word “known” is doing some heavy lifting there
Cryptocurrencies don’t rely on a central entity and is the Lemmy equivalent to Reddit compared to the fiat currency. I like it and I like the technology but
- Good luck at having a proper stable economy using only crypto. Cryptobros hate central banks but their policies ensure that a loaf of bread doesn’t cost 3 times as much the next day. I’d rather have a central trusted authority than not having one
- Bitcoin by itself sucks. It was the first crypto so it’s the most common but it’s slow, heavy and costly to operate and to transact on
Cryptobros hate central banks but their policies ensure that a loaf of bread doesn’t cost 3 times as much the next day.
The exact opposite. Only after abandoning the gold standard does a central bank have the power to make a loaf of bread cost 3 times as much the next day.
Central banks are a relatively new invention and are not essential in the slightest.
They are able to regulate the interest rate. We don’t perceive a change of value of our fiat on a regular basis. What yesterday was $1, today is $1.0000001. Good luck maintaining the same purchasing power with Bitcoin (in terms of stability)
Because they can’t run out of money, central banks can be the largest buyer and seller over the short term.
But there is no economic rule that demands those entities exist. For example, from 1863 to 1913 the US had almost no use for a central bank.
Note that I’m very far from suggesting the world’s economy should run on bitcoin. Just that central banks are not as essential as they are made out to be. They are used as much to cause inflation as they are to control it.
Bitcoin specifically? No. It’s a janky prototype that should have been superseded a long time ago.
Crypto in general? Probably something. It’s good for buying and selling illegal things.
Modern blockchain protocols dominate bitcoin in every dimension except market cap.
TL;DR: It’s worth whatever a greater fool is willing to pay for it.
Bitcoin is a cult, therefore it’s invaluable to the cult members. In reality they’re all multi-level marketing pyramid schemes which is what the stock market has degenerated into as well. The former just has more overtly obnoxious shady unethical proponents. It’s easier to succumb to greed, selfishness, and seclude oneself from the rest of society by simply buying something that confirms one’s fallacy riddled beliefs than it is to question oneself and actively improving society with all of Earths inhabitants, ecosystems, and posterity in mind. Technologically humankind has made great strides, but mentally the majority still thinks like cavemen.
Crypto Cult Science
“Money corrupts; bitcoin corrupts absolutely. Disregarding all of bitcoin’s shortcomings, a financial instrument that brings out the worst in people—greed—won’t change the world for the better.” —https://www.arscyni.cc/file/crypto_cult_science.html
The real answer is: It depends how you define value.
Can you make money with Bitcoin? Yes. Are you likely to make money? No Is the technology useful applicable? Yes Is it being used and applied ethically and for the good of people? No. Is it a ‘store of value’? No, it’s more like an extremely volatile stock or a lottery ticket. Can you use it like money? Yes Is there any reason to use it like money? Not really, not even among other cryptocurrencies.
Depending on which of these aspects of Bitcoin matter to you it will be more or valuable.
not even fiat (heh) is worth anything if we don’t accept it as store of value, let alone an electronic register on a digital ledger.
There is a limited amount of Bitcoin, and some of it is lost in forgotten wallets, so the total volume is constantly falling. This may partially increase the price.
But in reality, as in any speculative market, the price of bitcoin depends mainly on faith in it and speculation about world events (some kind of cataclysms, regular statements of this or that person about cryptocurrency, etc.)
The main real value can only be found in countries that are disconnected from SWIFT. However, almost no one appreciates this because there are only 5 officially disconnected countries. However, if this list continues to grow, cryptocurrencies (including Bitcoin) will become more prevalent in international transactions.
The cost to produce new bitcoin doubles every 4 years ( a bit more because new hardware is added). This drags up the price of all the dormant bitcoin.
There have been no new Bitcoins for a long time. Everything that miners mine is just a transaction tax. In fact, to describe the reason for bitcoin’s growth, you need to understand what money is all about. Not just crypto money, but in general. In short, the price is rising because many (including miners) believe that it will rise and do not spend bitcoins. In a normal economy (except Japan), you could just print more money and the price would drop because the currency unit would depreciate. But bitcoin is a mathematical model, and it has a limit. You will not be able to create more Bitcoins than you have already created in any way. Therefore, the belief in the growth and retention of the currency reduces turnover and the price increases. If any of the whales withdraw their entire stock in one day, the market will fall for many years.
UPD: Excuse me, I really made a mistake. You can still mine 3 bitcoins per block… but to be honest, 3 bitcoins for a whole pool is only an eighth of the original 25 bitcoins per person. In general, mining has not compensated for mining for a long time.
UPD: I checked just in case. The average commission payment is now 1.5 bitcoins. almost half of the reward
UPD: I will reveal my thought even more. An ASIC at 1160 Th/s costs 33k dollars and consumes 11 kW. Even in my region with a low-cost light (only 5 cents per kW), such an asic will be able to bring only 58 dollars per day. And it will pay off only in 1.7 years. This is the moment when the miner will FINALLY stop working at a loss. And this is in ideal conditions without increasing the complexity of the network and other things. So all the miners who don’t buy huge amounts in bulk barely pay for their business.
mining has not compensated for mining for a long time.
The average commission payment is now 1.5 bitcoins. almost half of the reward
I think you have the wrong units. The average fee is 1.5 USD.
And it will pay off only in 1.7 years
This is quite quick. Last time I looked the it was around 3 years. Most of the cost comes from buying the hardware.
This is quite quick. Last time I looked the it was around 3 years. Most of the cost comes from buying the hardware.
my calculations were made without taking into account the growth of the network’s complexity. So, when I tried it last time, the network’s complexity had increased so much in a year and a half that the equipment was not bringing in much, and it was not worth the risk of investing. However, things may be different now, and I may be mistaken.
UPD: Now I just buy Bitcoin on exchanges, and it brings me the same % of income as mining. But I don’t have to deal with equipment, follow ridiculous laws, or waste electricity. =) That’s why I say that many peole just tkabe bitclin to cold wallets. Less bitcloin exists on exchage then grow price.
When I first looked at Bitcoin it was around $10/BTC and electricity to mine (on a cpu) was about the same.
The people who make money mining bitcoin have a combination of very cheap electricity and/or next generation asic hardware.
I think you have the wrong units. The average fee is 1.5 USD.
https://bitinfocharts.com/ru/comparison/bitcoin-fee_to_reward.html#3m
Percents you can calculate self. That’s not for all blocks, but in a day.
UPD: This is not for every block, of course, but for the whole day. I was wrong about that. Maybe really 2%
I don’t think bitcoin provides much value in itself. Its basically an asset that is hard to make more of, like money or gold, which are also valuable because of this and that gold and specific currencies are relatively widely used.
bitcoin’s supposed added value over money is private digital transactions across the globe in a private way, so that you can send money whoever you want, but it’s not practically private, and has so large operating costs (even just the transaction fee) that it’s not really better than bank transactions.
so in short: its value is in its scarcity, and that you can speculate on it. the other possible advantages are not realized.
since the value is in speculation, the dollar limit is when investors start selling enough of it so that others will do the same out of fear. which is who knows how much. but it’s probably more related to other factors than the dollar value.
From a basic labor theory of value perspective, bitcoin requires labor to produce because mining it requires massive amounts of compute power. This computer power is supplied using GPUs and electricity, both of which require labor to produce.
If you use this calculator, and enter the values 67 TH/s (tera hashes per second, the rate at which you are mining), 2680 watts for electricity consumption rate, and 5 cents per kilo watt hour as prices, you will see
4.25 USD revenue per day 3.22 USD cost per day Profit rate = 32.0%
To make the values of the the hash rate and energy consumption rate realistic, I consulted the specs of the machine antminer S17, which is aparantly a machine used in the bitcoin mining world (I ain’t into crypto mining). The cost of electricty comes from Kazakhstan, which has cheap electricty and substantial mining operations.
So basically, at the current price of bitcoin can support a gross profit rate of 32% for the people who produce bitcoin, assuming you keep all the profit (no taxes, interest, rent), have no employees or maintainable costs. This is the price currently settled at based on the technological conditions and level of competition.
It is nothing too crazy of a price, and the rapid growth of price in bitcoin is due to how the currency was designed. Basically, once a certain number of bitcoin have been mined, the bitcoin generation rate per mined block halves. This forces an exponential rise in the difficulty of mining bitcoin, and therefore an exponential rise in its price.
Most probably, if bitcoin was designed to have a constant difficulty of producing, its price wouldn’t have increased at all.
I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief.
“Bad news, detective. We got a situation.”
“What? Is the mayor trying to ban trans fats again?”
“Worse. Somebody just stole four hundred and forty-seven million dollars’ worth of bitcoins.”
The heroin needle practically fell out of my arm. “What kind of monster would do something like that? Bitcoins are the ultimate currency: virtual, anonymous, stateless. They represent true economic freedom, not subject to arbitrary manipulation by any government. Do we have any leads?”
“Not yet. But mark my words: we’re going to figure out who did this and we’re going to take them down … provided someone pays us a fair market rate to do so.”
“Easy, chief,” I said. “Any rate the market offers is, by definition, fair.” He laughed. “That’s why you’re the best I got, Lisowski. Now you get out there and find those bitcoins.”
“Don’t worry,” I said. “I’m on it.”
I put a quarter in the siren. Ten minutes later, I was on the scene. It was a normal office building, strangled on all sides by public sidewalks. I hopped over them and went inside.
“Home Depot™ Presents the Police!®” I said, flashing my badge and my gun and a small picture of Ron Paul. “Nobody move unless you want to!” They didn’t.
“Now, which one of you punks is going to pay me to investigate this crime?” No one spoke up.
“Come on,” I said. “Don’t you all understand that the protection of private property is the foundation of all personal liberty?”
It didn’t seem like they did.
“Seriously, guys. Without a strong economic motivator, I’m just going to stand here and not solve this case. Cash is fine, but I prefer being paid in gold bullion or autographed Penn Jillette posters.”
Nothing. These people were stonewalling me. It almost seemed like they didn’t care that a fortune in computer money invented to buy drugs was missing.
I figured I could wait them out. I lit several cigarettes indoors. A pregnant lady coughed, and I told her that secondhand smoke is a myth. Just then, a man in glasses made a break for it.
“Subway™ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!®” I yelled.
Too late. He was already out the front door. I went after him.
“Stop right there!” I yelled as I ran. He was faster than me because I always try to avoid stepping on public sidewalks. Our country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen.
I was losing him. “Listen, I’ll pay you to stop!” I yelled. “What would you consider an appropriate price point for stopping? I’ll offer you a thirteenth of an ounce of gold and a gently worn ‘Bob Barr ‘08’ extra-large long-sleeved men’s T-shirt!”
He turned. In his hand was a revolver that the Constitution said he had every right to own. He fired at me and missed. I pulled my own gun, put a quarter in it, and fired back. The bullet lodged in a U.S.P.S. mailbox less than a foot from his head. I shot the mailbox again, on purpose.
“All right, all right!” the man yelled, throwing down his weapon. “I give up, cop! I confess: I took the bitcoins.”
“Why’d you do it?” I asked, as I slapped a pair of Oikos™ Greek Yogurt Presents Handcuffs® on the guy.
“Because I was afraid.”
“Afraid?”
“Afraid of an economic future free from the pernicious meddling of central bankers,” he said. “I’m a central banker.”
I wanted to coldcock the guy. Years ago, a central banker killed my partner. Instead, I shook my head.
“Let this be a message to all your central-banker friends out on the street,” I said. “No matter how many bitcoins you steal, you’ll never take away the dream of an open society based on the principles of personal and economic freedom.”
He nodded, because he knew I was right. Then he swiped his credit card to pay me for arresting him.
This is actually quite good. OC? / Source?
It was an article published in the New Yorker in about 2014 or 2015.
I always pay my respects to a fellow knower
o7
To you and yours
i’m glad you said that, i was confused if this was either an apocryphal from ayn rand… or the great nagus, who knows.
since it’s making fun of an Ayn Rand book in the very beginning, it’s safe to assume it’s not her work. And the grand Nagus doesn’t really approve of drug use. Except for beetle snuff.
I keep this copypasta around for occasions such as these.
I was unironically checking if someone had posted this or else I would.
Thank you.
Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme with a really long time horizon. In a way, any fiat currency kinda is as well. The difference is that a government backed fiat currency like the US Dollar is backed by the US Government saying “you will accept the USD, or else”. That backing keeps the game running. Bitcoin has nothing like that. The only reason it keeps going is because of speculation, money laundering and the purchase of black market goods.
So, as long as you can go buy drugs or move money across borders with Bitcoin, it will have value. As long as it has value, some folks will speculate on it. That can keep prices up, right up until it doesn’t. So, as is always the case for speculative assets, caveat emptor.
What is a first edition holographic charizard worth? What is the utility of that card?
Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them.
You can’t eat a Bitcoin for sustainance. Or hammer a nail with it. You can’t do either of those things with a pokemon card either.
I feel like you get this, based on your post… But you still are hung up by it.
Bitcoin’s attractive utility for many is that you can transfer them pretty much unimpeded by any external entity. Like a government for example.
Like, hypothetically, what if you wanted to send a million dollars to your family back in, I dunno, Hong Kong. Do you think you can put that in a suitcase and hop on a plane? Do you think your bank will just send that wire? No. Government needs to know about it.
You can send a million dollars worth of Bitcoin, though. No problem.
What about if the government decides to seize your assets, for whatever reason? Maybe you were a little too loud about your support of Palestine and a man child president decided to make an example of you? They can raid your home. They can seize your bank accounts. Can they get your Bitcoin? Nope (if you’re actually holding it yourself)
What sets Bitcoin apart from other currencies is that it’s very government resistant. You CAN hold it yourself. Not digitally in a bank. Not as bills under your mattress. It cant be seized.
How much SHOULD Bitcoin be worth, given the utility it provides? No idea. But it’s something.
Gold and rare metals are the only real currency. And a bitcoin miner contains rare metals and earths for electronics.
