It seems like it should be sort of a priority for the fediverse to create a high quality alternative to Facebook, which is one of the largest platforms out there, and probably what a lot of people think of when they think of “social media”, and yet, the marketing and overall adoption of Friendica is simply abysmal, to put it bluntly.
Issue 1: The super bland and basic on-boarding.
When you visit the main website for friendica, you are greeted with “friendica: a decentralized social media network” followed by a “try it” button. Then when you scroll down, there is basic black text on a white background, explaining things like decentralization, privacy, and interoperability. Do you think that this sort of intro is really going to draw people in? It gives off the vibe of “it is your birthday”, a la dwight from the office.
If you click on the “try it” button, you get scrolled to a part of the site that says “Try Friendica” with two sentences that basically say “this website is really complex overall, but don’t worry, you can click another button below to browse a list of servers (yes, servers, we are not explaining what that means, just click the button)”. The actual server list has a single filter option, language, and if you filter by english, the top server right now is a furry server. If any normie has somehow managed to get this far, they are sure to nope the fuck out at this point.
Assuming you do manage to get past this point, the actual sign up form has way too much information for the average person. The first field is “openID”. I’m sure that’s useful for those who use it, but why is it the first field? There is also a check box to be added to the public directory, which is checked no by default. What does this mean? It is certainly not explained here. You’re not asking for a password? Why not? Oh, because you are making a random password for me I have to copy and paste and then save or change. That’s not inconvenient at all. Yet another step of friction for me.
Compare this on-boarding process to other sites on the fediverse. Mastodon has a catchy and succinct explainer on why their site is worth joining followed by a “join mastodon.social” button, or a “pick another server” button. If you go to the servers button, you get several different filtering options, region, interest, sign up process, legal structure, and very notably, a disclaimer that all of these servers have signed a safety agreement. Upon signing up, you first agree to some terms of service, which is very reassuring for those looking for a safe and welcoming platform, followed by entering username, e-mail, password and date of birth. All very straight forward. Lemmy is similarly streamlined and polished, and you don’t even need an e-mail to sign up for some servers. Super easy and convenient.
Issue 2: Terrible mascot.
Mastodon has their mastodon carrying a knapsack. Lemmy has the lemming face. Pixelfed has a cute red panda. Friendica has…some kind of demented looking rabbit with bugged out eyes? Seriously, what the hell is this?
Issue 3: Super basic blog style website.
As alluded to in issue 1, the website is super basic, with almost no polish to it. It looks like someone made it on wordpress. The home page does have some clip art type images and background stuff thrown in here and there, but outside of that, it looks very unprofessional. Again, comparing to sites like Mastodon and Lemmy, which have much more polished and professional looking web design. The clearly put time into making sure new users get a good impression. Friendica puts almost no effort whatsoever.
So these three issues, just from an outsiders glance, are in my opinion some of the biggest things holding back what could potentially be one of the most used sites on the fediverse, at least on the marketing side of things. I do not know how the overall team behind the site is structured, but suffice to say, it needs work.
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I stopped using facebook years before fediverse even existed.
I think the facebook public is not the same as the fediverse public.
The most developed fediverse apps are the ones that clone sites that the geeks used to roam, like twitter and reddit.
When people develope something like this, usually is because themselves want to use it. I would assume that, like me, not many people want to use a facebook-like site.
Maybe not within the “geek” world, but Facebook is one of if not the largest social media platform out there. So I am not sure it’s quite accurate to say “not many people” want to use a site like that. I know for a fact a lot of my friends would join one of an alternative existed.
The growth mindset that is intrinsic in questions and comments like this is counterproductive to the goals of the fediverse in my opinion.
The goal of federated services is not to be the biggest anything in the world. But instead to give places for people who actually care about the quality of The contents they interact with and that it was created by humans.
If that means that this part of the grand scheme of media stays small… So be it.
Add to that the butt ugly blue and yellow icon from the 90’s.
Diaspora had it going on I found. It’s a shame it didn’t catch on. And that they didn’t adapt it to ActivityPub.
It was made back when Facebook had that old style UI, in 2010. And then interest in Facebook’s format kinda died, and so did the interest in the project.
What’s crazy is that all I really want out of a social platform is 2010’s Facebook. That was perfect. I was keeping in touch with friends and staying updated with their lives. I want that back so bad.
The poking was annoying, but somewhat endearing. I feel like myspace was where it was at to be honest. There is a site called spacehey that replicates it, would be nice for something like that to be on the fediverse.
The mascot argument seem like cherry picking. I completly agree about the two other points
It’s part of an overall image. I know it seems minor, but when the sign up is janky, the website is janky, then you somehow get a janky error with some bizarre looking rabbit, it just adds to the pile of things that might make people think it’s amateur hour.
I couldn’t find the rabbit on Friendica’s website, but I did find it here: https://joinfediverse.wiki/Fediverse_mascots#Flaxy_O’Hare
You’re right, it’s awful lol.
I don’t know. I think it’s actually kind of cute. I like it.
That’s actually pretty funny. :)
Link for anyone interested:
Based on the post, I was expected the website to look far worse.
- I agree the onboarding isn’t great and could use an overhaul.
- Had to specifically look search for the mascot (didn’t see it on the website) and yeah, that’s rough (starting from scratch may not be a bad idea). Flaxy O’Hare
- The screenshot also showed a pretty basic UX that could look far better.
I guess in conclusion, I think all your points are valid.
Edit: numbered items and added missing link.
The website is not bad as far as websites for open source software go, but for a social media site, it is honestly one of the worst I have ever seen.
I tend to agree. I think that even though it might seem a little harsh, it’s also pretty important to be brutally honest and realistic about things like this. Maybe consider sending this feedback to the developers (in a constructive way, of course).
edit:
I wanted to add that I think the name ‘Friendica’ is a really good one, and I like what they have going on. I have heard good things about it in general, despite the dated design/style elements.Totally, the name and overall functionality is decent, and I actually do enjoy using it once I figure out how. It just needs a bit of a face lift and overall marketing rework.
I tried to love it. It’s one of the most feature rich fediverse platforms out there. It has groups built in out of the box, it talks to Diaspora as well as Activitypub… But it’s just… not nice to use.
I assume the root problem is a near complete lack of money to make Friendica polished, or user friendly, or full of great features, or well-known. If it’s a tiny team who may have other jobs, then it’s hard to imagine it getting better.
True, but then why have Mastodon and Lemmy been able to make it work? I’m not sure about Lemmy, but I know Mastodon is a non-profit that has a paid development staff. What is stopping friending from following a similar model? Do they just not care enough about it to try to pursue it full time? I do know there are grants and different types of funding structures for fediverse projects, but I do see how funds can be a limiting factor. For me, it seems more of a matter of passion and dedication. I could be wrong about that though.
Mastodon is a modest, minimal and deliberately limited social network, managed by a staff that doesn’t care about the Activitypub standard and compatibility with other software in the Fediverse; Lemmy is not a social network (users can’t “follow” other users) and this allows it to be a bit lighter to manage, as it doesn’t have to take into account the network it would create between all the nodes.
Friendica on the other hand is a masterpiece of interoperability (it was born to manage different protocols: Activitypub, DFRN, diaspora*, RSS, OSStatus; it has connectors for Bluesky and Tumblr and provided connectors for Facebook and Twitter) and integration (it manages practically all Activitypub objects except polls); it manages groups better than any software that isn’t Reddit-like and has its own APIs, while integrating Mastodon’s APIs (and the Raccoon for Friendica app has improved the interface a lot also thanks to the inspiration of the Lemmy app); allows for advanced features and automation directly from its interface.
Unfortunately, the graphic design is outdated, the ergonomics are anything but friendly (my favorite slogan is “Friendica is not friendly…”), and the queries are a fucking problem, but we are talking about something that has no equal in the Fediverse, and never will unless Bonfire manages to emerge from its current chrysalis of an autoerotic concept.
However, you can’t compare the complexity of Friendica to systems like Mastodon or Lemmy.
I think it’s simply because more people use mastodon and lemmy, so there’s more incentive to work on them, and there are a lot more contributors to development.
It’s an acquired taste. Now that I’ve been using it for months, I prefer it. I like that I have my Bluesky and Tumblr posts completely integrated into my timeline. I can reply to Bluesky posts. When I post something, it automatically gets posted to Bluesky, and Tumblr, if I like. I never go onto Bluesky any longer. Likes and replies from Bluesky are right in with my Mastodon posts and RSS feed posts too. Yes, RSS integrates in as well (obviously you can’t reply to them though).
On Mastodon, if someone posts something interesting and I want to see replies and discussions, I can’t, unless I remember to go back to the post and look. In Friendica I can click that I want to follow the thread, and it will notify me of the updates, and take me right to the new comment when I click it, it takes me directly to the notification. I love this! If I interact with a post (like it), same thing. It will track it for me. And it does a better job of pulling in replies and responses from all over.
Yeah. Not all good.
I run one of the Friendica servers and it’s a problem child. The database grows rapidly and struggles. The database queries urgently need work. Sine are super slow. It stalls a lot. The UI is confusing. The developers are not all that active any longer, but still active. The UI is, well, dated.
More info about it here: https://news.elenarossini.com/the-future-of-social-is-here-a-show-and-tell-part-3-friendica/
Forgive my ignorance as I am not a developer, but how hard would it be for a new development team to take it over? I know that open source software is a collaborative process, but it feels like most of the biggest fediverse platforms have dedicated teams that drive it. What exactly happened that led this one to fizzle out? What would it take to get another one engaged? Or would it just be a start from scratch type situation?
I do agree that the functionality is pretty good, if not a bit wonky at times. I’ve heard those hosting servers discuss how hard it is to keep an instance running smoothly.
I haven’t looked at the code, but it’s standard PHP so probably not terribly hard for PHP developers to get involved.
The developers still work on it, are active in the support groups, and answer questions, but they just can’t put in the time they used to. I’m sure they’d be happy if someone wanted to get involved. But, I don’t think it would need to be taken over, just helped.
I looked at the code recently. It’s really good, way better than the UI made me expect.
While i definitely agree, none of this is a deal breaker for me. What is a deal breaker is this: I am on my third Friendica account now because the first 2 instances both started struggling and then collapsed. The one I’m on now is suddenly running very slow, just like the first 2 before the end. It seems to me like maybe they’re kinda hard to run?
Idk if it was friendica or lemmy but the space filled up hella fast, friendica needed constant restarts like once a week, ideally daily, or it lagged and you couldn’t login or do anything. Was Hosting both, but noped out.
The stalls are because the database queries are suboptimal. There is one that occasionally runs that, on my instance (I have 337 active users), can sometimes run for 15 minutes and will lock tables. Everything stalls and backs up.
This query was discussed, and I believe in the next release (but unsure) it will be replaced. Instead of using a ton of “not in” clauses, it does a left join now. In testing, someone mentioned it went from multi minutes to multi seconds to run. But there are a lot more such queries.
I think what Friendica needs desperately is a MariaDB/MySql expert to clean up the queries.
Because Friendica supports groups, you can connect to Lemmy communities. This is what kills Freindica. It just cannot handle the hundreds of thousands of daily connections that come in just from lemmy.world alone. Basically, it then becomes a Lemmy/Piefed/MBIN instance plus a Mastodon instance. The database grows by leaps and bounces, queues back up, and it stalls. CPU pegs without relief.
On mine, I finally had to block the Lemmy User Agent at the Cloudflare firewall. I calculated I would have had to spend another $500/month to allow the server to handle the Lemmy traffic comfortably, excluding the continuing cost for DB space. So far, I haven’t blocked Piefed and MBIN, but this could change.
Friendica groups were designed for small private groups or specialized groups. Not public forums. I don’t think they ever anticipated someone connecting to Lemmy.world communities and that such groups would become so active. I’ve told people on my instance that if they want to connect to these groups, they should use Piefed/Lemmy/Mbin, not Friendica.
Thanks for this comment! It really explains exactly why Friendica is struggling.
Is a real shame as IMO events (and groups) are really important to get a critical mass of adoption in Fedi. I look at sites like Allevents.in which allow people to submit but most of their event data is scraped from FB. We need Fedi instances which make searching events easy. So many groups and individuals and organisations feel unable to leave FB because they can’t see anywhere else to tell people about events, at the moment that is pretty true. But it needs to be an allrounder site, not an event specialist site.
But not being able to connect to busy Lemmy communities would mean Friendica isn’t an ideal allrounder, and even if the Friendica instance got big and has very busy groups, it would have issues.
I hope that these issues get solved!
(just a placeholder for my usual rant about how federation is the wrong unit for scaling social media)
Every Friendica instance I tried had issues with extremely slow performance and complete nonresponsiveness.
I even tried Friendica.world because Ruud knows what he is doing, but it ran pretty bad too.
Yeah just signed up, and tried to share it with friends and so far I got no friends or whatever I am suppose to get.
Thank you, and yes, Friendica.World is still having issues. I even created a separate community for it: https://lemmy.world/c/friendicaworld
You’re the third person I’ve heard this from. Seems marketing is not the only issue.
Sounds like they’re lacking UI, UX people on their team, along with someone good at marketing, and money overall.
I could help with marketing and fundraising, but at the very least the UI and branding would have to be fixed first. I guess if the team was contacted if they’d like a person to fix up the onboarding process and an artist to help make a new mascot I know one who would do it. Actually what would be better would be 2 mascots, to go with the whole “making friends” motif.
Sign up definitely needs to be by interest after going through language, since you’re right that the first option would totally nope most people out.
Guys, it’s time to accept the Fediverse apps and websites are not meant to and never will be a replacement for mainstream social media. They are meant for a hobbyist and activist audience.
Let’s stop with the slacktivism and start putting money on the table, and professionals of all specialties will show up and change this reality.
The SteamDeck uses Linux. It took 20 years, but it’s still something.
That’s true, it is built on the work of open source precursors, but it is not an open source product in itself.
Another comparison should be Mastodon vs Bluesky.
For Reddit and Facebook, something similar is still pending.
The Reddit-style text-based forums are becoming more and more of a niche market.
People nowadays scroll videos on TikTok and IG, almost nobody is using Reddit itself
I would not go that far.
How many people do you know IRL who are not in tech and use Reddit ?
Personally everyone I know is on TT/IG, only the tech people are on Reddit
I do not think that is accurate. I know plenty of non-tech people using reddit for a variety of things. Everything from music to personal advice to fashion, interior decorating, and food. It is far from a tech only forum. Very few people I know use tiktok. Instagram is definitely used mostly by normies, I will give you that.
Interesting. Are you in the US? Reddit was always much bigger in the USA than non-English speaking countries
I don’t think that’s true. That’s just defeatism talking.
I was not meaning it in a fatalist way. Precursors are important, but should not turn into the big product themselves.
But you’re not saying it’s just “precursors” - it sounded like you were saying the fediverse will never become mainstream. Never is a long time, I would say.
That is pretty depressing then. I always viewed the fediverse and activitypub as a transformative technology that could reshape the state of corporate control of the internet. What you are saying that that will never happen and we should just basically give up.
They are trailblazers for sure, but I don’t think they should be made into full blown mega corpoi, that is not the philosophy of open source apps.
The SteamDeck uses Linux. It took 20 years, but it’s still something.
I honestly consider that to be a feature, not a bug.
Reddit, Facebook, Twitter etc. all started out great, then grew so large that they lost all their magic.
Why should we try to speed run that process with the Fediverse?
Was the smallness the magic? For me, I did not notice or care about the size. It was about personal connections first and foremost. The feed was full of your friends posts, and nothing else. Then they all started going all in algorithms, trending/engagement, advertisements, bots, and AI, and it all went to shit. In other words, corporate profit seeking is what ruined it, not the size.
That’s part of my point, yes!
and
That second one is actually pretty good. The first one needs to die in a fire.
What fedi app has good marketing? Mastodon gets a little visibility, but largely its marketing seems to be trying to talk to people already on fedi. They need to talk to people who aren’t here, and sell the positives more than hitting on the negatives of the negatives of the corporate sites.
As to friendica, I signed up on an instance and played with it a bit. I liked it, but it didn’t feel like a replacement for Facebook. What it reminded me of most was LiveJournal from years ago. Something about the early 2000s website design ethic, I guess.
It’s open source. Feel free to contribute.
I am not a programmer or web developer. This post is meant as a contribution to those that are capable. If there is some user feedback forum more appropriate, I would be happy to contribute there. I apologize for not being able to contribute more. I will work on my programming skills and see if I am able to help in a more concrete way.
Yes, there’s always time to learn, and code contributions are by far the most valuable!
Giving feedback is the first step to contributing.
My complaint about Friendica is that it just doesn’t actually seem to do the part of Facebook that I actually want. At least not very well. I don’t want to see news, current events, memes and crap in that feed. I want to see posts and pictures from IRL friends, life updates, event organization, interest groups, etc. With privacy settings so only actual friends you want see the posts.
In its current state Friendica seems to just be a skin over mastodon, with some alpha stage friend features.
I do agree with that assessment. I feel like it almost just needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, with that specific focus in mind. A new site all together might be the best way to go.
They never explained well how to use Friendica, so it’s all guessing. But, I believe, to get a Facebook-like experience, you mark people as “Friends” who you want in a Facebook-like environment. This maps to “Friends” on Facebook. Then you click on the “Friends” circle, and you only see posts and conversations from your friends.
You can also set up groups that federate to other instances, and you can control access to the groups. I’ve never used it, so I don’t completely understand how to do this.
But, I think these are the 2 closest Friendica features for Facebook emulation.
https://wiki.friendi.ca/docs/groups-and-privacy#groups_and_privacy
I set up several Circles on mine. I have one called “People Only” and it is just the people I follow. No news sites or tech sites or RSS feeds for sci-fi tv, no celebrities or astronomy feeds or cat picture accounts, just people. When I want to catch up just with people I follow, I click it.
I did test the calendar feature with a non-event event and was able to see and respond to it from my Mastodon account. I have not yet played with the groups feature though. That is on my (eventual) to-do list.
Yeah, it feels like its all supposed to be there. But without getting any of my actual friends to make an account, its hard to test any of it out. Though the bigger issue right now is that it seems my instance (friendica.world) is down or dead. The list of other instances is also struggling to load for me.
Just curious. Have you had trouble loading my-place.social?
It almost seems like it is too flexible. Like, it pulls in posts from all over, which is interesting and cool. But do people join a site like Facebook to see random posts from everywhere, or do they join it to see posts from their friends?
Lemmy is good because it is a closed ecosystem. It doesn’t take in posts from every site on the fediverse. That’s not to say that it should not be an option on Friendica, but it should definitely not be the default view. Which is definitely a part of what also drives people away when they try it, I think. They don’t know how to connect with their friends, and just end up connecting with lots of random people. The fact that “list in directory” is checked no by default doesn’t help either. It seems like it almost tries to make it hard to connect with people you know.
Maybe i’m missing something but lemmy absolutely shows mastodon posts. It depends on if someone uses the handle of the group or not.
