What do you call 34,000 dead, 2/3rds of which are women and children? And mass graves of 400 of women, the elderly, and wounded at hospital sites? What’s the difference between mass murder and that? Or do you just prefer the word genocide? Because that seems worse…
Okay, let’s talk about this seriously, thank you for your non-emotional reply.
We go back to the initial cause of this war. I would like to ask you what Israel should have done instead of what they did. Was there an alternative that did not involve striking back?
Im no international relations expert, I just know genocide is bad. But, if I were forced into the position, I’d probably suggest striking back proportionally, then make a deal to return hostages. This would probably involve negotiating for a two state, or even better a one state, solution. Negotiate with PLO to legitimize them, take the wind out of Hamas recruitment by giving the Palestinians full rights and sovereignty. Get international agencies in, and not just biased ones like the US and Germany, to help negotiate this so everyone gets heard. Basically, do something akin to dealing with what South Africa did, or how LBJ would negotiate with MLK to avoid dealing with the more militant black movements, or how they dealt with the IRA (negotiations, not violence).
But that is what they did? Strike back and the whole time try to get the hostage back. All they needed to do was give the hostage back to get a cease fire, but they didn’t. It same way there is no way to have peace with Putin, he simply does not want it. We can not negotiate with someone who declines or makes absurd demands.
Palestine did not get a “jail” because everyone around wanted to be mean to them. It got that way because of what the kept doing over and over. They have to change first before the others can open up again. Their terror attack only proved they are neither changing nor willing to change. So suggesting that is the way forward is really odd given what those around had to endure in the last decades. Like giving sweets to a toddler that is throwing a tantrum, that is not how it works.
Sorry, had a busy weekend lol. Anyway, where were we?
I’m talking about proportional strike back. Israel has gone way beyond that, to the point that the north of Gaza isn’t even livable in anymore. They’ve killed tens of thousands of civilians, numerous hospitals, refugee camps, cultural centers, etc. There’s no infrastructure, no water, no power. People are starving to death and dying of thirst. It’s complete annihilation.
Of course Hamas isn’t going to give the hostages back for a simple, temporary ceasefire. It’s their only leverage. It just leads to the same situation they were in before of slowly losing land and rights. They are not asking for absurd demands. They’re asking for their rights and land back. The countless protests by families of the hostages proves Bibi doesn’t care about them at all. They’re a good excuse to keep killing Palestinians, but that’s it. If anything, it’s just causing the deaths of more hostages.
And your last paragraph suggests a very strange reading of history. Palestine has been defending themselves from settler colonialism and Israeli terrorist groups since before Israel was a country. Peaceful resistance hasn’t helped at all. The March for Return just got them a bunch of dead people, maiming, and blown off kneecaps. They’ve been asking for help from the international community for 70 years and Israel refuses to let them return to their homes or form any sort of state.
They’ve been slowly losing due to Western propping up of this colonialist project. But people aren’t going to just lay down and let themselves lose everything their ancestors have worked for for generations. Of course they’re going to fight. They’re not throwing a temper tantrum, they’re trying to prevent themselves from going as extinct as the Native American, Australian aboriginal, or indigenous Canadians. Seeing that is just being realistic. You would do the same thing in their situation. So, if they want an actual solution, they can either complete their genocidal project, or try to negotiate for peace by sharing power and living space. Everyone who has a heart doesn’t want option #1.
Hamas is not asking for absurd demands? Until recently it was even in their constitution that they want to destroy Israel. They can not live with Israel, there is no way for them to accept that. They only know a holy flight. They teach their children to only know hate. That is why they invest everything into weapons, instead of building Palestine, they do not even have fresh water everywhere. Instead, they dig out UN water pipes to build more rockets. And they even use footage of that as propaganda, thinking that they look great doing that. It is a massive tragedy.
I mean yes, obviously Hamas is bad. I just mean in this very specific case, they’ve been asking for things like a permanent ceasefire, Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, freedom of movement for Palestinians in Northern Gaza where they lived, and release of Palestinian hostages (who are often held without charge, and they’ve often asked for captured women and children, too, not just male Hamas fighters). Those things aren’t absurd.
Ya, Lemmy is so biased against genocide and the mass murder of women and children. It’s weird.
Ah yes now it is mass murder, let’s just redefine words however we want.
What do you call 34,000 dead, 2/3rds of which are women and children? And mass graves of 400 of women, the elderly, and wounded at hospital sites? What’s the difference between mass murder and that? Or do you just prefer the word genocide? Because that seems worse…
Okay, let’s talk about this seriously, thank you for your non-emotional reply.
We go back to the initial cause of this war. I would like to ask you what Israel should have done instead of what they did. Was there an alternative that did not involve striking back?
Disinformation assets are welcome to go hang by a tree.
Im no international relations expert, I just know genocide is bad. But, if I were forced into the position, I’d probably suggest striking back proportionally, then make a deal to return hostages. This would probably involve negotiating for a two state, or even better a one state, solution. Negotiate with PLO to legitimize them, take the wind out of Hamas recruitment by giving the Palestinians full rights and sovereignty. Get international agencies in, and not just biased ones like the US and Germany, to help negotiate this so everyone gets heard. Basically, do something akin to dealing with what South Africa did, or how LBJ would negotiate with MLK to avoid dealing with the more militant black movements, or how they dealt with the IRA (negotiations, not violence).
But that is what they did? Strike back and the whole time try to get the hostage back. All they needed to do was give the hostage back to get a cease fire, but they didn’t. It same way there is no way to have peace with Putin, he simply does not want it. We can not negotiate with someone who declines or makes absurd demands.
Palestine did not get a “jail” because everyone around wanted to be mean to them. It got that way because of what the kept doing over and over. They have to change first before the others can open up again. Their terror attack only proved they are neither changing nor willing to change. So suggesting that is the way forward is really odd given what those around had to endure in the last decades. Like giving sweets to a toddler that is throwing a tantrum, that is not how it works.
Stop lying, you slimy genocidal maniac.
Sorry, had a busy weekend lol. Anyway, where were we?
I’m talking about proportional strike back. Israel has gone way beyond that, to the point that the north of Gaza isn’t even livable in anymore. They’ve killed tens of thousands of civilians, numerous hospitals, refugee camps, cultural centers, etc. There’s no infrastructure, no water, no power. People are starving to death and dying of thirst. It’s complete annihilation.
Of course Hamas isn’t going to give the hostages back for a simple, temporary ceasefire. It’s their only leverage. It just leads to the same situation they were in before of slowly losing land and rights. They are not asking for absurd demands. They’re asking for their rights and land back. The countless protests by families of the hostages proves Bibi doesn’t care about them at all. They’re a good excuse to keep killing Palestinians, but that’s it. If anything, it’s just causing the deaths of more hostages.
And your last paragraph suggests a very strange reading of history. Palestine has been defending themselves from settler colonialism and Israeli terrorist groups since before Israel was a country. Peaceful resistance hasn’t helped at all. The March for Return just got them a bunch of dead people, maiming, and blown off kneecaps. They’ve been asking for help from the international community for 70 years and Israel refuses to let them return to their homes or form any sort of state.
They’ve been slowly losing due to Western propping up of this colonialist project. But people aren’t going to just lay down and let themselves lose everything their ancestors have worked for for generations. Of course they’re going to fight. They’re not throwing a temper tantrum, they’re trying to prevent themselves from going as extinct as the Native American, Australian aboriginal, or indigenous Canadians. Seeing that is just being realistic. You would do the same thing in their situation. So, if they want an actual solution, they can either complete their genocidal project, or try to negotiate for peace by sharing power and living space. Everyone who has a heart doesn’t want option #1.
Hamas is not asking for absurd demands? Until recently it was even in their constitution that they want to destroy Israel. They can not live with Israel, there is no way for them to accept that. They only know a holy flight. They teach their children to only know hate. That is why they invest everything into weapons, instead of building Palestine, they do not even have fresh water everywhere. Instead, they dig out UN water pipes to build more rockets. And they even use footage of that as propaganda, thinking that they look great doing that. It is a massive tragedy.
I mean yes, obviously Hamas is bad. I just mean in this very specific case, they’ve been asking for things like a permanent ceasefire, Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, freedom of movement for Palestinians in Northern Gaza where they lived, and release of Palestinian hostages (who are often held without charge, and they’ve often asked for captured women and children, too, not just male Hamas fighters). Those things aren’t absurd.