Gee it sure sucks that Evergrande collapsed. What a horrible sign for the Chinese economy!
You would think that multiple fake cities built out of the cheapest materials possible might have been a sign that something was fishy … I mean… How could anyone have known!!!
Poe’s law is real, @filoria@lemmy.ml.
I challenge you to look up any of those “ghost cities” now. Literally all are filling up. People really don’t understand planning and building for the future?
Not really future proof when they’re being built with shit materials, you can literally crumble the concrete with your bare hands.
You’re assumption seems to be that the China of 40 years ago is the same as China of today.
China has more high speed rail trackage than every other country combined. Where do most iPhones come from, or smartphones in general?
Can confirm, im a badly built house in China ghost town. My bad concrete hands crumbled after writing this
Imagine complaining about the build quality of Chinese apartments when your reference point is… American ones.
No sheathing, drywall on inner walls, barely any insulation, plywood only for the minimum necessary to guarantee wind stability… Pot calling the kettle black, really. You can literally run through walls of new builds in the US.
China builds housing for the market. While quality might be high in tier 1, 2 and even tier 3 cities, that’s not going to be as true for tier 4 cities that are designed to absorb the massive rural-to-urban migration of poor farmers… The market doesn’t demand it. You’re kidding yourself if you think even the shoddiest constructed apartment isn’t better than the average rural home which not only lacks building codes but lacks modern materials.
China builds housing for the market.
Their stock market, maybe. There is a reason this company imploded and it was because of their investor market, not real demand. Those ghost cities were the product of an investment housing market gone wild. Right now, it’s the same failure mode, regardless of the country.
If you keep getting your understanding of China from Five Eyes propaganda and corporate media, you’ll keep being wrong.
There was enough pent up demand in the Chinese property market to fill these cities, but the national government saw overall demand would fall as early as 2021 when it started restricting some types of construction projects, like some skyscrapers and subway lines. You are also seeing some provinces adding in perks for buying property, like hokou registration.
It seems like China has mostly cought up to a lot of its demand for urban residential property. This is a problem as most municipalities and provinces have relied on property development as a way to fund local services.
The Chinese property crisis may end up being on post with the American mortgage crisis in 2007-2008. However, the Chinese crisis will look very different compared to the American one.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
This Is What the World’s Loneliest Metro Station Looks Like Today
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
China paints China in the worst possible light, actually. Hell, even their mass produced fake electronics paint a grim picture at the micro level of how that country operates.
That’s also hysterical that you are bitching about western propaganda, when China is the undisputed king of bulk fake news.
You sound like one of these shills, actually. You didn’t post anything useful, but rather, just regurgitated some random poor-China schtick.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Hell, even their mass produced fake electronics paint a grim picture at the micro level of how that country operates.
Where do most iPhones and other smartphones and laptops come from? What country has more high speed rail trackage than every other country combined? Yes, they will also output cheap crap if companies are willing to sell them.
That’s also hysterical that you are removed about western propaganda, when China is the undisputed king of bulk fake news.
Where to start…
A KGB spy and a CIA agent meet up in a bar for a friendly drink.
“I have to admit, I’m always so impressed by Soviet propaganda. You really know how to get people worked up,” the CIA agent says.
“Thank you,” the KGB says. “We do our best but truly, it’s nothing compared to American propaganda. Your people believe everything your state media tells them.”
The CIA agent drops his drink in shock and disgust. “Thank you friend, but you must be confused… There’s no propaganda in America.”
- Noam Chomsky - The 5 Filters of the Mass Media Machine
- Propaganda model
- Edward Bernays
- Walter Lippmann
.
Below is a copypasta of my own comment last week, in response to someone’s weapons-grade gish gallop: “I’m pretty sure the Tiananmen square massacre was a bigger crime. Not to mention their genocide of the Uighur people, their oppression of Hong Kong, their attempts to steal Taiwan’s sovereignty.”
Tiananmen square massacre
- The Tian’anmen Square ‘Massacre’: The West’s Most Persuasive, Most Pervasive Lie.
- 1989 Tian’anmen Square riots
- A Note on the Tiananmen Protests
- Images from Tiananmen 1989 the West never shows (NSFW / CW: violence and death)
- ‘Tank Man’: the full footage. Tiananmen Square, Beijing, 1989
their genocide of the Uighur people
This bullshit never ends, does it?
- https://lemmy.ml/comment/8588979
- A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
their oppression of Hong Kong
Hong Kong was the product of the UK’s century of Chinese oppression, and their 99 year lease on oppressing Hong Kong ended in 1997.
steal Taiwan’s sovereignty
Taiwan is only considered sovereign by eleven countries, most of which are micronations like the Holy See, the Marshall Islands, and Tuvalu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan
was a bigger crime
Reporter: [REDACTED]
Reason: Tribalist reactionaryReporter, I’d like to know how an anti-imperialist stance is reactionary or how a debunking of Five Eyes propaganda is tribalist.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Noam Chomsky - The 5 Filters of the Mass Media Machine
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I guess some things just never actually happened.
Nice Gish Gallop. Care to try again and not be a tanky stooge?
tankie stooge.
The banality of liberalism.
My country is manufacturing consent for a World War III that could end in nuclear winter, and I dissent.
Delete more of my posts you coward.
This is a gish-gallop of garbage and mods can remove my posts all they want. I’m not registered on lemmy.ml and your rules mean nothing to me.
How do you recover that? How the hell are they going to recover what is essentially multiple time the sum of the wealth of all the top 10 richest individuals on earth???
multiple time the sum of the wealth of all the top 10 richest individuals on earth???
Do you mean the $78B fine or the $300B debt?
In either case, you’re way over exaggerating. All of the top 14 wealthiest people have over $100B each. Jeff Bezos (#2 richest) has close to $200B alone.
It’s even worse than I thought… Holy fucking shit.
Right!?
These people have more wealth than the GDP of some nations.
Jeff Bezos has more wealth ($190B) than the GDP of Ukraine ($170B).
In theory, but if he tried to liquidate all of his Amazon stock at once it’s very unlikely he would get that much for it. The price of the stock would crash.
except in theory they can borrow from the bank with their stock as leverage and would never actually need to liquidate anything (and they do just that).
Yep. This fucking loophole in the American tax system.
You borrow against your existing wealth, then the cost basis of your investments resets upon inheritance. So your estate can sell the investment to pay off the debt, and no capital gains tax is ever paid.
Because of this, in America, capital gains tax only applies to the middle class. The rich have a clear and obvious loophole.
You don’t, the investors loose the money. That’s the risk that they take investing in a business.
By locking up the rich, seizing their wealth, and using SOEs to take over incomplete projects for pennies.
Presumably they won’t recover, because the Chinese state isn’t coming to their rescue: China’s housing minister says real estate developers must go bankrupt if necessary
I just hope the collapses won’t pull others with them and the whole construction sector. I think the fear of that and the effects rippling to other sectors and to trust in the economy is why bailing out is sometimes done.
Except that the Chinese national government is trying to reign in the domestic construction market and export as much as it can.
It was the right strategy to keep building for a generation, but it isn’t right strategy any more.
I’ve read that they’re trying to lessen the share of the GDP but an uncontrolled crash would still be horrible. Hopefully whatever they do that is avoided.
It is more than that. China significantly invested in infrastructure for a generation, which was generally good. However, China has hit a point where infrastructure investment won’t produce the returns it used to or any at all. China also needs to figure out a way to find municipal governments, which it hasn’t before. China also has to deal with a significant drop in economic growth, something it hasn’t dealt with for a generation.
These are novel problems for the Chinese government.
yes, it’s a good reminder that capitalism doesn’t actually work and needs to be propped up with bailouts to ensure it doesn’t collapse and gets replaced.
Well China is trying to not bail them out, at least for now. And some others have done it before too. It’s just people fear the risk of doing that, hoping that by bailing them out things won’t be as bad.
lol
Sucks to suck. This guy should be OK though, based on the CCPs history of fair trials and lenient sentencing.
Uh-huh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States
The United States has the largest known prison population in the world, it has 5% of the world’s population, and 20% of the world’s incarcerated persons. China, with four times more inhabitants, has less persons in prison.
Uh-huh:
https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/international/executions-around-the-world
As in previous years, execution totals do not include the estimated thousands of executions carried out by the world’s leading executioner, China, where execution data is considered a state secret; …
Like, a whole lot of secret state executions, pinky swear. 😂
As in, you doubt that people get executed in China?
Or
They do, but the numbers are inflated?
I’m just not sure what you’re trying to say.
I don’t doubt it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China
Although most death sentences are “with reprieve,” which seldom lead to execution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_sentence_with_reprieve
All of those are on the public record.
What I’m saying is: where is their evidence for an “estimated thousands of executions carried out” that are secret?
So you’re going with wilful ignorance. Neat.
Name a country that executes more people per year than China does.
Actually, since you can’t do that, don’t worry about it.
Anyhoo, they’ll execute him.
If a billionaire is in actual trouble, he’s in China. US would have bailed out Evergrande.
I have pretty severe concerns about how the Chinese government operates, but this is one thing they do right.
I have pretty severe concerns about the way the American government operates.
We have traded the literal genocide and opression for corporations performing economic genocide and opression on us.
But hey, aren’t billionaires cool?
Yeah, well, I like having rights so we’ll just have to accept that everything can’t be perfect.
You know the majority of the world has the same if not more rights than you. Take Canada, I can go to any hospital without worrying if I will become bankrupt. I can own the majority of firearms this world has to offer and if I get pulled over, the police can not legally rob me because the money I have on hand isn’t drug money unless there is difinitive proof that it is.
I cannot believe how quickly you shifted those goalposts, well done getting those idiots to upvote you.
Oh, just so you dumbfucks know, China isn’t Canada. I get it, they both have red on their flags. It confused you.
What the previous comment to yours was criticising the US govt. I didn’t move any goal posts was just pointing out that your freedoms is to do what your are told. Not much difference from China tbh
That’s the hypocrisy that we’re pointing out
I have pretty severe concerns about how the Chinese government operates, but this is one thing they do right.
The context directly compared China to the U.S., there isn’t any hypocrisy here you just don’t know how to read.
I don’t understand. You think that if the United States stops bailing out mega corporations and starts to enforce laws on white collar crime, that we will also lose civil rights?
Or maybe you’re trying to say that while the US has many faults, at least it’s not as bad as China. That is of course true, for some of the people some of the time, but certainly not all of the people all the time.
Typical American Exceptionalism take. Hey buddy, there are hundred of free countries that provide their citizens with inalienable rights.
How about you take your “America can do anything” attitude and apply it to GOOD instead of killing others?
American CAN do anything it wants, like helping its citizens.
It chooses not to.
Shhh, shhh. Quiet now.
Fun fact: his last name means a ‘dick’ in Polish (the most vulgar version of that word).
Not only in Polish. Pretty sure it’s most of Eastern Europe. 🤭
Imagine living in a country where the rich are actually subject to the laws like everyone else…
Not exactly … they still treated with special previllages, its just this is bit too much
What special privileges are they treated with?
Smh first they come for the corrupt property developers
Now do Ken Griffin
Chinese do not fool around. I expect they will make an example of this guy.
fined
yeah, with a bullet through his skull
We are saddened to announce that he was fined deaded with two bullet wounds 😔
he was investigated over suspected “illegal crimes”
Are there any legal crimes you guys know of that I can try?
landlordism
TFW: A writer gets paid by the word…
Removed by mod
Accepting bribes if you’re a Supreme Court justice.
Lobbying is just corruption with a different name.
Idk, piracy and jaywalkin’…
Then there’s loitering?
Anything with a fine you can easily pay.
Based. Wish that were us; we’ve got OODLES of real estate clowns who need to be shoved in a Brazen
Man all these bad news about Chinese property market, hopefully there isn’t a collapse there as predicted.
I hope that the property market collapses and property prices go way down. Surely there are large numbers of people who would like to buy property but cannot afford it at the moment. I hope that happens in many countries.
I mean, that sector is also a huge employer with lots of construction companies and jobs tied directly and indirectly to it. If the construction section comes down, that’s going to cause a lot of hardship on a lot of people. So even with cheaper houses (for a while, if the construction sector doesn’t improve you’ll get high prices again later) I’d say it’s a huge net negative for people and their lives.
Ponzi schemes don’t make anything productive.
I don’t know if you are using the word differently but property market includes stuff like construction companies, development companies, architect companies, material suppliers, engineering companies and stuff like that. Building a house seems fairly productive, for example.
Building a house is productive.
Taking payment in advance before building a house and buying a yaught, then having no budget to build the house so you take payment for another house and use that money to build the first house
is not productive.
Unfortunately all of that is included in that sector. So while that is shit and wouldn’t mind them being punished, there’s also all the other jobs and economic considerations. A lot of workers are working directly or indirectly within that sector.
No all of that is included because Evergrande is a ponzi scheme. They can undercut their competition by selling houses for such a low price that they can’t build them.
So they run on people pouring more and more money in and putting more and more projects on hold. That’s a ponzi scheme.
Building houses doesn’t have to be a ponzi scheme. Evergrande is.
