Instead of ‘splurging’ on a dumb tv bc they’re more expensive now thanks to the data sompanies sell off of smart tvs I was considering getting a smart tv and dumbing it down. Is the way to do this never connecting it to the internet? And is that the only way?
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I prefer the term lobotomize
I’ve gotta believe that inside somewhere there is an HDMI signal going to the monitor that you could move to the outside. I can’t imagine they are using anything else. It would take opening it up and looking around.
HDMI is a communication protocol used by a chip that communicates with the control board for the display. The display does not receive HDMI connection in any form.
You maybe could find a dumb display driver that is compatible with the display, but what display options or inputs available would be very basic.
A better option is to buy a commercial display TV that does not have smart functionality.
Which chip exactly? Show me the datasheet. What SOC do they use for the smarts? Got a data sheet for it?
How would you think you would physically attach the display to the device “running the dumb display driver software”
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/iz8AAOSwkLtkzgdV/s-l1600.jpg
The right side sort of outlined in white are all power related. The main chip that everything passes through is in the middle left under the black heat radiator. The small black chips are for encoding/decoding, storage, etc. the white FPC/FFC connectors up at the top left are the connections to the display panel and backlight.
There is no HDMI connection to the display without it being translated by the signal processing chips. HDMI comes in, gets decoded, that passes through the processor to handle signal translating to display instructions and signal processing for display properties, which is then output to the display. The operating system, which is always running in the background, is run on the same processing hardware that handles the display instructions.
There is no way to divorce the “smart” TV functions from the function that handles converting the HDMI to display instructions without hardware to replace all the functions of that board minus the smart functions or by replacing the firmware with dumb software that doesn’t have the smart functions.
There is no place to add an HDMI port that bypasses the smart processor because the smart processor is what makes HDMI to display communication possible.
You would want to make sure the model you get doesn’t lock you out of selecting an input port until you agree to its terms & conditions and/or let it update its firmware.
Also, the only way to be sure it can’t give away your data is to open it up and physically disconnect its wireless network module(s). You could instead simply not give it a wifi password, but then you would be gambling on the hope that it won’t quietly connect to whatever neighborhood or drive-by open networks it finds on its own.
Also bear in mind that buying a smart TV signals to vendors that those are desirable, and rewards manufacturers for producing them, thereby making the problem worse in the long run.
I avoid the issue by using a projector or computer monitor for watching video. If I were to buy a TV, I would look at dumb models from the likes of Sceptre, and console gaming monitors like those from Philips.
Here’s a relevant discussion and article from last year:
‘splurging’ on a dumb tv
This might not be the best advice if money is an object, but some LG OLEDs can be rooted simply by visiting a website:
http://rootmy.tv
So you get a top-quality screen and complete control over the software.
Personally, I’ve never connected my LG OLED to the internet and it works just great.Me too. Basically I just use a Chromecast for everything. I also have a Linux PC hooked up to the TV but that’s just not very convenient to use while lying on the sofa.
I have a Linux pc hooked to the TV and it’s very convenient to use while lying in the sofa. In fact that’s all I use the TV for. And the reason I am interested in this post, as my 12 years old dumb TV will kick the bucket on day it the other.
The pc is my server/nas and runs kodi in a container that outputs to the TV. It has no keyboard nor mouse, but I do have a remote controller that I had lying around from an old android TV box. Basically you turn the TV on and kodi is there waiting with all my movies, series, and iptv to choose from. With a great remote controller that works beautifully with kodi.
The remote is a minix neo a2 I have had for years. Highly recommend it. If it dies I’ll do a quick research to see if there is something better this days, but I’d be keen to buy another one straight away.
This doesn’t work on the latest firmware FYI.
I use this to run an instance of Hyperion on the tv to run leds on the back of it, that dynamically change color to match the show. Since it’s native on the tv it works in jellyfin or my pc hdmi cable.
For me running jellyfin in the tv works so well, it’s worth giving it network access.
If you dont mind me asking - what do you use your TV for?
If it’s a gaming, or watching movies off your home server, that makes sense.
I’ve got a cable DVR and a Raspberry Pi running LibreElec plugged into it.
I’ve only experimented a little with gaming since I don’t own a console and my PC is in another room. I had the whatever the Steam software is installed on the Pi for awhile, so I could stream games from the PC.A lot of the people making the suggestion are paying for a box. It might look the same as the built in Android TV a lot of the time, but you can have something that doesn’t choke loading apps as often, or a box you specifically chose for better support or more ability to modify the base Android.
(Yeah pirates are also part of the picture, but I have and use both of an nvidia shield TV and an Apple TV instead of the awful built in smart nonsense. TVs would be better without the extra overhead, but not connected to the internet plus a separate smart box is a lot better IMO.)
Even if you want streaming, don’t use the TV’s apps. Use a Chromecast or attach an entertainment PC to it. Chromecasts can be replaced for cheap, PCs can be upgraded. Neither is true of a “smart” TV.
I have an lg tv that I route through a pihole that blocks most stuff. I wasn’t going to connect it to the internet, but it had airplay support. I think I’m using this list: https://github.com/TheShawnMiranda/LG-TV-Ad-Block
Why not just set up a static IP on the TV and a rule on your router to prevent it from talking to the internet? That way it has LAN access but not WAN. This will allow airplay to work, but keep your TV dumb.
I do this to all of my smart devices.
I know people don’t like Apple, but I use an ATV on all of my TVs, leaving the TV itself “restricted” from WAN access.
Just get the biggest computer monitor you can afford
I’ve mine on a separate VLAN that has no internet access. the only thing it is allowed to do is sending and receiving UDP packets on port 14447/14449 for hyperionLED. And that’s about as smart as I allow it to be.
Disconnect internet / delete WiFi network from smart TV + stream via Apple TV. As simple and easy as it gets.
You definitely don’t need an Apple TV, but this person has the gist right. Remove all data connections to the TV and use an external device to function as the smart part.
Have you heard of mesh networks?
How are mesh networks relevant?
I’ve heard, but cannot confirm currently, that some smart TVs are connecting to other smart TVs in nearby houses and apartments creating an ad hoc mesh network and sending user data.
I honestly don’t know if it’s bullshit or not, but the guy you’re replying to has probably heard the same thing. I wouldn’t put it past TV makers.
It would explain how my fucking roku/TCL magic’d itself the stupid EULA update. It’s not on my wifi… However, I know the neighbor has one that is.
If it is real, for people who do have their television connected to their network, it probably creates interesting new attack vectors against their network.
Basically this, except if you aren’t in the Apple ecosystem you can use alternative boxes/sticks to stream. I plugged my TV in initially and it was broadcasting an open wifi signal. I was like NOPE, removed the cable and shut it all down.
Blocking the TVs network, and using Apple just puts all your surveillance into a single system.
Don’t forget DVDs.
Lots of TVs will connect to open networks automatically if they are available. If you have any open networks around you, disconnecting them from your own wifi may not be enough.
Connect to a guest wifi which doesn’t have internet connectivity.
Block it from your router. Install updates with usb if needed. Get an AppleTV for the rest.
Sorta. I have some lg tvs and I’ve been able to dumb a lot of it down for their lg services by using a pi-hole ad blocker and adding the lg ad service domains to the blocker. This isn’t totally what you’re asking, but I think you could block even more with some testing.
My LG asked me whether I want to enable the smart voice, listening, and AI stuff and I declined.
Guess I need to fish my RPi out of the drawer
Yeah, it’s usually the internet that makes it smart. The easiest way is to never let it connect to the internet at all.
The more complex, but potentially better, way to do it would be to let it only connect to certain parts of the internet that it needs (e.g. for updates?), but block it from communicating with other parts of the internet (e.g. where it gets its ads from) or your own home network.
I’m not an expert, but hopefully someone more knowledgeable comes along to help!
You can generally do firmware updates over USB if you actually need them.
Also sont devices will grant Ethernet over hdmi, which doesn’t require authentication like wifi, so make sure your set to box isn’t granting internet access to the tv.
manufacturer may very well integrate add and update endpoints so that it’s rather hard to distinguish. For example, say Samsung decides to serve adds and updates. Doing so through https://serives.samsung.com/{ads,updares} they leave you with 0 handle on what’s going on, since the only thing your routers and proxies can see is “samsung.com” and differentiator is “hidden” after that. So TLDR; is: you either allow internet access or you do not, there’s no “a little bit”
I am about to set up a pi-hole in my network. Would that help with this scenario?
Generally, no. Manufacturers just bake in a DNS server setting and it will only fail over if it can’t get to it.
The way to get around this is to have your router block outgoing dns requests to anything but your dns server (which I have my pihole do double duty for)
I’ve come across devices where they will stop functioning or flood my network with DNS requests if they can’t reach their baked in addresses. I setup a redirect rule to handle that. ANY 53 request gets redirected to my DNS server. I’ve had similar issue with NTP and had to do the same.
At the same time they are assigned an IP that’s part of a subnet that has a rule preventing access to WAN. It allows me to “contain” my smart home devices but continue to work as much as possible on LAN without it freaking out.
It depends. Using OPs scenario, if all data, ads and updates, are served from data.samsung.com, then the pi hole can’t help. But if ads are served from ads.samsung.com and updates from updates.samsung.com, then you can blacklist the ads while still receiving the updates.
My experience with a Vizio is that the pi is blocking a lot of the “phoning home” connections, but the ads seem to be integrated with the software that allows me to use apps, so I still see them when I use the TV’s apps. More and more though, I’m using the HDMI port with my HTPC.
So TLDR; is: you either allow internet access or you do not, there’s no “a little bit”
Good point! There would be “temporarily” though, which might work for updates. Of course, then it might just serve you the same ads forever that it pulls along with its update.
If you’re using it as a dumb TV, unless it shipped some critical firmware issue that prevents core functions from working (like HDMI input, switching inputs, etc) there shouldn’t ever be a reason to update it out of the box.
I’ve used smart TV’s for 10+ years now and figured this out of the awful experience from the first one. Never had any issues with the ones I’ve never connected to the Internet.
Newer TVs are getting even worse. If you don’t connect them to the internet and don’t agree to their TOS, you get a less useful tv. They purposely give you the worst experience they can without drawing adverse attention from regulators.
Disclaimer: I did not buy smart TVs recently. However from my research and experiences with other “smart” appliances - manufacturers now offloaded the most basic functions to the cloud and they LOVE IT. This gives them leverage in any extortion scheme they desire (just look at Toyota making some of their fob functions “subscription only” retroactively. This is a new era of digital extortion and the only way to shift is to avoid participating in a market of “smart things”. Corporations certainly capitalize on that, but if there is no market for smart things or it’s not lucrative enough they’ll begrudgingly cave as they need to sell. We’re not the majority though so unless we educate others this is the new reality.
This is something that needs government intervention unfortunately. Counting on individuals to not just buy the smart tv that is cheaper and more convenient isn’t a viable plan.
This is certainly possible from a technical perspective, but it’s unlikely that it would happen in reality. Consumer product companies are invariably going to want to outsource ads to a third party, not host them from their own systems. It’s also going to be a pretty small percentage of customers that would bother to do this, and they are probably not the ones that are likely to make purchases based on ads anyways.
from what I’ve observed so far outsourcing does not preclude proxying external entities through existing trusted domain.
If you allow updates you risk it updating to a version of the software that stops functioning when disconnected. If it’s functional it’s just better to block internet access altogether.
For what it’s worth, I just bought a TCL 55S450F (55 inch 4K HDR FireTV) specifically because it does not ever need an internet connection to function (expressly stated in the manual). It is currently on Amazon for $268 (they have other sizes at other prices). It’s a great TV, considering the price. The only real drawback for me is the remote is Bluetooth, rather than infrared (less compatible with universal remotes).
Note that for full dumb TV effect, you’ll want to go into the settings and tell it to resume the last input, rather than going to the home screen when you turn it on (without connecting it to the Internet, the home screen is basically just a big banner telling you it’s not connected, and when you dismiss that, it just allows you to access inputs and manage settings).
I’m in the same boat. So I kill two birds with one stone when I shop for used dumb TVs - they are cheap and available as general population craves “smart”. Can’t loose there. I got 42" for $25 and larger ones can be had for under $100. So even if you’ll buy a lemon once or twice you’re still ahead
Hammer is best way. I would say, seriously, don’t buy it. Even though it’s more expensive, buy the dumb TV, because that tells companies that there is demand for dumb TVs.
How much more expensive would a dumb TV compared to a Smart TV for the same quality?
That’s a serious question as I had never thought about all these privacy issues before buying a TV.
Best buy has non smart listing for 55in TVs for about $1,800, it’s also intended for outdoor use. In comparison you can get a 55 in smart tv for $400 from best buy.
There are listings for an $800 hospitality TV, but that is internet capable.
Honestly, I couldn’t tell you because I haven’t owned a TV in about a decade.
They’re not even really available anymore. There are some but they’re more meant to be directly sold to businesses, and often lack features in addition to costing much more. Easiest thing to do is get a smart TV and just don’t let it connect to the internet.
My computer monitor can take HDMI and DisplayPort. It’s just a display. If you’ve got a device that can receive a signal and spit it out to it, should be good.
Computer monitors might not be large enough for someone, depending upon their use.
I remember in the 1980s, people using televisions as low-end computer monitors. I suppose the circle is complete.
I just bought a 10 year old 1080p projector and it’s amazing! I can make a 10ft wide wall size screen. It’s like a theater venue in my living room now.
Doesn’t 1080 spread over 3m look janky?
Have you tried viewing it from 3km away?
You can grab 10 year old 720 and 1080p projectors all day from shopgoodwill for like $20
I have a “smart” TV with a network cable plugged into nothing at all, with no wifi connected, plugged into an Oooold Lenovo Tiny PC running Mint. The Mint box does all my smarts. Pihole, ad-block, all that jazz. It never occurred to me that it might have connected to some open wifi out there, but none of my neighbors have guest wifi or anything, so hopefully I’m good. It’s definitely not on my wifi, anyways.
You should educate yourself about Amazon’s “sidewalk” network. You won’t have to worry about open wifi networks soon; they’ll just be the default, and bluetooth - so you can’t turn them off without also disabling the remote your TV came with.
Hmm… The nice thing is, I don’t use the remote. I have a little wireless keyboard plugged in to my Tiny PC… But yuck. I guess I’ll have to start tinfoil hat wearing soon.
