You might be right, but to some degree that also means that hamas brought this over their own people.
The nazis in Germany for example did the same, and whole citys where bombed by the allies.
So would you blame the nazis or the allies for this? I think there where a lot of war crimes on both sides back then, nevertheless it started because of the cruelties of Hitlerers entourage. And the German people did not fight this régime which made them accomplices at least according to historians.
This does not mean that I support how the IDF operates. The hole thing that got us in this situation this time is because the hamas attacked civilians in an monstrously way and did this over years with their missiles as far as I can tell. So I would blame them at first also the palestinians should have fought hamas their selfs.
You know, i don’t really wanna engage with these “they brought it upon themselves” argument, because it’s really just gonna spiral down into endless back and forth where the origin is only remotely resemble the issue today. To say palestinian deserve what they get because of Hamas is like saying Israeli deserve what they get because of Netanyahu.
I never said anything about deserving.
Thats a clear staw man argument. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
And I explicitly isolated the situation, exactly to avoid spiraling. Also I blamed the hamas and not the people.
You didn’t explicitly say “deserving”, you’re implying. Heavily. There’s no strawman.
Isolating this situation in such a narrow timeline doesn’t make it better either, it’s a very complex issue that need to have a clear separation between modern conflict and past. Which is why I don’t want to engage in discussing, people will either only isolate the whole situation to the current conflict or be very quickly point out the ancient history.
I think I never had to qoute myself, but what does “hamas brought this over their own people” tell you else then that which is writen? I only am responsible for what I am writing but not for what another one feels the words could mean.
Comparing a resistance movement against a colonizing occupier to the actions that two industrialized nations took against each other during wartime is not really the best way to frame this. If we look at the colonial expansion of the United States against the Native tribes and collectives that were already here, that had established their own system of governing based on mutual collaboration, it gives us a better perspective and context.
I think it’s fair to blame Israel for their excessive violence, in the same way it’s fair to blame the Allies for flattening civilian cities at the end of the war.
When it came to bombings, both sides were terrible. A lot of things the victors of WW2 would’ve been war crimes if it weren’t for the blanket “all Germans were nazis, all nazis were evil, so they deserved it” attitude that developed during the war. But who would defend the nazis? They had invaded every country around them, which turned everyone in their sphere of influence into either their enemies or their liberated subjects. Switzerland could wag a finger at the victors, but there weren’t many places in the world that could add anything.
I don’t know if historians would call the German people accomplices, but the media and general public sure did, and that’s what stuck around. Real life is a lot more complicated than “group A bad, group B good”. Hitler didn’t come to power democratically, he was a minor player that used threats and violence to seize control.
There are a lot of similarities between the beginning of the second world war and the current destruction of Gaza. Everyone feels bad for the Palestinians but nobody wants the Palestinians to come to them. Invaders haven’t spoken their intent to commit genocide out loud yet, but everyone can see where this is going. There is a clear imbalance in military strength, and out of fear of escalation, nobody is willing to do anything. There’s also a second war raging that has powerful allies worried much more.
But there are also differences; Israel isn’t going to try to conquer the Middle East, the colonial powers are no longer controlling the vast majority of the world so the political situation is more complex. The Palestinians are much more concentrated in one single place, and the conflict has not only an ethnical history, but also a territorial one, going back hundreds to thousands of years, with both sides picking an arbitrary point in history to claim their right to the land. Then there’s the cold war-style military backing of Hamas and the IDF by Iran and the USA and its allies. It also doesn’t help that both sides are fighting to drive the others out of their lands; if Israel would stop their invasion and attempt to rebuild Gaza into a paradise, many Gazans will still cry for the death of all Jews in ten years time.
The Israel/Palestine situation isn’t as simple and clean as any world war. It has festered for much longer. Barring the eradication of all Jews, I doubt we’ll see peace in the middle east in our lifetimes with the way things are going.
You might be right, but to some degree that also means that hamas brought this over their own people.
The nazis in Germany for example did the same, and whole citys where bombed by the allies. So would you blame the nazis or the allies for this? I think there where a lot of war crimes on both sides back then, nevertheless it started because of the cruelties of Hitlerers entourage. And the German people did not fight this régime which made them accomplices at least according to historians.
This does not mean that I support how the IDF operates. The hole thing that got us in this situation this time is because the hamas attacked civilians in an monstrously way and did this over years with their missiles as far as I can tell. So I would blame them at first also the palestinians should have fought hamas their selfs.
But maybe I am wrong, so I am listening.
You know, i don’t really wanna engage with these “they brought it upon themselves” argument, because it’s really just gonna spiral down into endless back and forth where the origin is only remotely resemble the issue today. To say palestinian deserve what they get because of Hamas is like saying Israeli deserve what they get because of Netanyahu.
I never said anything about deserving. Thats a clear staw man argument. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man And I explicitly isolated the situation, exactly to avoid spiraling. Also I blamed the hamas and not the people.
This whole shit has to end some day.
You didn’t explicitly say “deserving”, you’re implying. Heavily. There’s no strawman.
Isolating this situation in such a narrow timeline doesn’t make it better either, it’s a very complex issue that need to have a clear separation between modern conflict and past. Which is why I don’t want to engage in discussing, people will either only isolate the whole situation to the current conflict or be very quickly point out the ancient history.
I think I never had to qoute myself, but what does “hamas brought this over their own people” tell you else then that which is writen? I only am responsible for what I am writing but not for what another one feels the words could mean.
Your next point is valid though.
This started in 1917. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration
Then there was Nakba in 1948. Literally catastrophe. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/nakba-palestine-catastrophe-explained
Hamas was founded in 1988 and revised their charter in 2017. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
Comparing a resistance movement against a colonizing occupier to the actions that two industrialized nations took against each other during wartime is not really the best way to frame this. If we look at the colonial expansion of the United States against the Native tribes and collectives that were already here, that had established their own system of governing based on mutual collaboration, it gives us a better perspective and context.
I think it’s fair to blame Israel for their excessive violence, in the same way it’s fair to blame the Allies for flattening civilian cities at the end of the war.
When it came to bombings, both sides were terrible. A lot of things the victors of WW2 would’ve been war crimes if it weren’t for the blanket “all Germans were nazis, all nazis were evil, so they deserved it” attitude that developed during the war. But who would defend the nazis? They had invaded every country around them, which turned everyone in their sphere of influence into either their enemies or their liberated subjects. Switzerland could wag a finger at the victors, but there weren’t many places in the world that could add anything.
I don’t know if historians would call the German people accomplices, but the media and general public sure did, and that’s what stuck around. Real life is a lot more complicated than “group A bad, group B good”. Hitler didn’t come to power democratically, he was a minor player that used threats and violence to seize control.
There are a lot of similarities between the beginning of the second world war and the current destruction of Gaza. Everyone feels bad for the Palestinians but nobody wants the Palestinians to come to them. Invaders haven’t spoken their intent to commit genocide out loud yet, but everyone can see where this is going. There is a clear imbalance in military strength, and out of fear of escalation, nobody is willing to do anything. There’s also a second war raging that has powerful allies worried much more.
But there are also differences; Israel isn’t going to try to conquer the Middle East, the colonial powers are no longer controlling the vast majority of the world so the political situation is more complex. The Palestinians are much more concentrated in one single place, and the conflict has not only an ethnical history, but also a territorial one, going back hundreds to thousands of years, with both sides picking an arbitrary point in history to claim their right to the land. Then there’s the cold war-style military backing of Hamas and the IDF by Iran and the USA and its allies. It also doesn’t help that both sides are fighting to drive the others out of their lands; if Israel would stop their invasion and attempt to rebuild Gaza into a paradise, many Gazans will still cry for the death of all Jews in ten years time.
The Israel/Palestine situation isn’t as simple and clean as any world war. It has festered for much longer. Barring the eradication of all Jews, I doubt we’ll see peace in the middle east in our lifetimes with the way things are going.
Well written. There is nothing to contradict.