Was just talking at dinner with family, and it seems a logical action to ban circumcision, as in most cases, doesn’t have consent, and is a major (genitals are important) body modification. Can we ban it at the state level? Just a thought.
I think cosmetic surgery should be limited to adults, yes. Circumcision here is usually cosmetic (someone wants the baby to look like the Dad, I am not kidding, that is the argument I hear the most) so like labiaplasty, I don’t think it should be done to people who can’t choose it. I don’t think intersex babies should be modified either.
Trans care for minors does not involve surgery. But other gender affirming care should be available to those over 13, like sexual health services are, without parental consent. That’s the age we legally think kids get some privacy rights so why not this?
There are times where intersex babies need surgery to prevent complications. For anything else, let them wait until they can decide. Agreed 100%.
Cosmetic surgery encompasses a lot more things than boob jobs. A burn victim getting skin replacement is cosmetic surgery for example.
Sure, that’s valid. A burn is an injury and repairing a skin injury is plastic surgery but I guess I didn’t think of it as cosmetic.
Mostly I wanted to say that I do think gender care is something like sexual health services, that people we consider children for other purposes are granted the right to access this on their own. Right now in my state those kids can’t even get counseling or lab services related to transgender care.
circumcision is in the Bible, gender reassignment surgery is not. That’s where they’re going to hang their hats… on the invisible sky ghost.
You’re absolutely right about your point, it all comes down to religion. But the procedure is actually sex reassignment surgery. Gender is the way you interact with the world, sex is the physical characteristics of your body.
Not trying to be pedantic or rude. It’s a common mistake and in a lot of casee the terms can be used interchangeably. Just trying to be informative for people scrolling by. :)
Um, ackshually, eunuchs are in the Bible, including Jesus saying that some people “become eunuchs” to get closer to God. So…
“Hey, there are parts of the Bible I like and parts I don’t like.”
I also want to say, if you read the Bible front to back, it’s the story of a people fucking up. The people do terrible things, a hero teaches them to be better, the heroes turn villain (or, rarely, wander off into the sunset when their role is complete), and the institutions rot.
It’s not a story of a better people, it’s a story of people doing better
Circumcisions should be banned because they are mutilating children’s genitals without consent. At least trans medical procedures have consent.
I think it’s just religious people being hypocrites again. Hard to convince delusional people of facts when they make up what they believe based on the circumstances. The decisions of religious cults shouldn’t have more power than the decisions of individual people. Completely crazy what this country is devolving into
There is scientific evidence that circumcision results in the area being cleaner and easier to maintain. I’m not denying it is child mutilation, but you also shouldn’t just sweep it under the rug as religious bullshittery.
So, yeah. To paraphrase, “When reviewed by people without the same clear and obvious cultural bias, circumcision only conclusively provides an incredibly marginal benefit, with evidence lacking for other supposed (and still very marginal) benefits.”
Where is this evidence?
I don’t think cleanliness is an excuse for lopping off part of a non-consenting infant.
It would be a lot easier to clean your head if you didn’t have any ears. Should we cut those off of babies too?
it’d be easier to brush your teeth if you didn’t have any teeth
Does your teeth develop phimosis?
Most cultures in the world don’t circumcise and it doesn’t cause much issue. It’s only the US where it became so common, because the wacko Kellogg had enough money to push his weird ideas, and somehow people still follow it. You should follow his other “preventative” ideas if you think circumcision is such a great idea.
Here’s a good video to get more ideas from. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ4ES8mOzYg
No. But, if they were to I reckon if I’d have the dentist look at them and decide what to do then…rather than rip 'em all out preemptively.
Well one is done precautionary as it doesn’t have any big life altering side effects while removing all your teeth does. I understand your enthusiasm but a little medical knowledge wouldn’t hurt no one. It’s also more difficult to get circ done after growing up.
Well one is done precautionary as it doesn’t have any big life altering side effects
I mean, reduced sensation, higher rates of some kinds of sexual difficulty later in life, and like anything that causes pain and stress to a neonate there are signs that it can have long term psychological effects.
You would only notice it if you get it done after growing up. I don’t understand the logic here. Have you been circumcised?
I’m sure there are many body parts we could amputate to help with maintenance.
Let me tell you about my revolutionary way to prevent athlete’s foot! Also, did you know you can prevent testicular cancer with one simple
snipstep?Wouldn’t that require two snips?
“Root and stem” with one rubber band!
If god wanted my parents to cut part of my dick off why did she put it there in the first place? Are you saying god made a mistake?
Maybe it was on purpose. The Abrahamic god is a sadist who apparently fucking loves killing and maiming people, so maybe he was like, “yoooo, you know what would be funny?” and then convinced a bunch of people they should cut part of their babies’ dicks off.
Wasn’t there also that weird ass bible tale where some dude brought another guy 200 foreskins so he could marry the guy’s daughter? If I don’t have one, at least nobody will kill me and take it from me to give to a potential father in law…
I still have to give the little fucker a good scrub to not stink though so the cleanliness thing has got to be bull.
Yeah. I get that it’s supposed to represent how many enemies he killed, but why foreskins, Saul? Could’ve asked for a lot of other things besides dick skin. Like, idk, their weapons or something.
Because you could buy or steal their weapons, but there’s only one way you’re going to end up with a piece of their dick. Also means you don’t get to count enemies who were Jews.
Honestly such a weak argument. Having helped my uncircumcised son learn to keep himself clean, I can probably say this myth needs to be laid to rest already. It’s just not true.
I dont get it either. However the American pediatric association and a couple others keep suggesting it’s “cleaner.” I think it’s based on some large global datasets and there are less STIs with circumcised penises? Even WHO recommends it. It seems like recommended people clean themselves would be much easier…
It’s not really about the evidence though.
45 years ago my parents genuinely thought they were doing the right thing by asking the Dr to circumcise me.
They weren’t great at critical thinking and have made numerous poor decisions in their lives as a result of vibe-based reasoning.
You can say I was “mutilated” if you like, but I don’t feel like a victim.
My parents also supported my education, where I learned to be skeptical, and challenge my preconceptions.
As a result, I didn’t have my son circumcised.
And if you shave your head, you don’t have to brush your hair.
Not just cleaner but you are also less prone to certain infections. I am circumcised, but it was done as a child. Knowing what I know now, I am glad since it decreases the risk for certain cancers and infections.
I never had not have ever heard of anyone I know having infections or cancers because of a foreskin.
I mean it does reduce the risk of penile cancer (for basically the same reason a mastectomy reduces the risk of breast cancer - less cells means less cells that can turn cancerous), but penile cancer is one of the more rare ones to begin with and the reduction is pretty small.
Some studies have suggested that circumcision may help prevent penile cancer.
Decreased risk of urinary tract infections.
Decreased risk of penile cancer.
Decreased risk of sexually transmitted infections
Suggested. “However, this is unverified”
Okay mate.
Suggested is my phrasing. The studies are pretty conclusive.
The first link says it’s unverified, and also says “suggest”, not your phrasing.
Technically, you can’t get foreskin cancer if you don’t have foreskin. Not sure if that is an acceptable reason to cut off part of a non-consenting infant’s genitals.
The vast vast vast majority of the worlds men have foreskins though.
Then we shall ban dentists too. They never had my consent to touch my teeth.
How many healthy and functional teeth have you had inconsensually removed from your skull by a dentist?
Did they remove your perfectly healthy canines because a bronze-age book said dogs are unclean? If not, get the fuck out of here with your infant penis mutilation apologetics.
Trans surgical procedures have some of the best outcomes of any major procedures. they are performed on consenting individuals who are always well informed and at or very near adulthood, and only after many other interventions have been ongoing. People who receive these interventions show incredibly low rates of regret (compare for example the percent of people who regret knee replacements or probably circumcisions), and enjoy increased happiness and satisfaction by almost any metric.
Basically every major medical organization in the world (and certainly in America) agrees these interventions are medically useful and should be performed. While there are doctors who dissent, they are in the vast minority and almost never actually work with any trans people, but rather insist all the doctors who do work with trans people must be wrong. It’s not a controversy in the medical world, just the political one.
States could but I don’t see anyone pressing for it. People would just claim a religious exemption if they wanted to do it.
As someone whose circumcision worked out perfectly fine and can’t imagine myself without one, I still think it should be banned for babies and children under 18 for any reason other than medical necessity. Even a slight risk of problems outweighs the ‘my dad did it and he turned out fine’ or religious tradition arguments.
It should not be banned for adults who voluntarily choose it for themselves though.
The problem is it’s quite difficult to get circumcision after adulthood
Is that because it is not medically necessary often and there is a lack of expertise, or because of risk aversion in the medical community? If there was suddenly a drive for adult circumcision I would imagine plastic surgeons would be all over it.
I’m guessing lack of expertise since most people who grow up with a foreskin are going to be comfortable with one just like I am comfortable with what I grew up without and the demand is pretty low.
In which case it is cosmetic surgery.
One does not Botox an infant.
In some cases it’s functional. Not all genitals grow as they’re supposed to.
… And that would be the very very very very rare medically necessary intervention.
Stop conflating medically necessary intervention and mutilation.
Some people are born with webbed toes, we don’t cut them up because “my dad did it to me and I’m alright”.
Too many very for today’s society where genetic anomalies and cancerous growths are on the rise.
Assuming you’re talking about male circumscission, the short answer is you’re about to be inundated with accusations of antisemitism.
As for female circumcision; it is illegal in the US. The Stop FGM act was signed into federal law in 2020.
To add to that, some Muslims will claim that FGM is religious. That is not correct. It is something that existed culturally prior to the introduction of Islam to those regions of Africa, and was incorporated into their religious practice. It is not, in any way, a necessary part of Islam. Unlike male circumcision, which is required in orthodox Judaism.
No religion should be mutilating babies. EVER.
I’m on the fence. Male circumcision reduces rates of certain STIs, decreases rates of UTIs, and it pretty well eliminates the possibility of phimosis. On the flip side, some men claim that circumcision reduces sensation, although I don’t know how anyone other than a person that had a circumcision after being sexually active would know. On the list of things to be upset about that parents frequently do to children, it’s pretty far down on my list, well below “spanking” and “gross invasions of privacy”.
Interesting that surgically removing a body part without consent isn’t as alarming to you as spanking
There are no benefits to spanking for the child, only negatives. There are benefits from male circumcision, and the negatives appear to be alleged rather than proven. (Most men that claim reduced sensation would likely do well to use lube, and stop using a kung-fu death grip.)
Given that circumcision has some limited benefits to the child, and spanking has none at all, yes, it makes sense that it’s a lower priority.
Also, in regions where FGM is practiced, it is practiced by Christians and Animists as well as Muslims.
It should probably be noted a more important distinction is that the entire purpose of FGM is to remove their ability to feel pleasure - by clipping off the clit - and thereby ensuring she doesn’t go around having sex.
While (male) circumcision isn’t necessarily to do that. (Though when they take too much, it absolutely does. Jewish mohels take far less than surgeons.)
Worth noting “clipping off the clit” is one of the milder less invasive forms of FGM.
Some types of FGM involve cutting off the clit and the labia.
Some involve going full scorched earth and cutting everything off then sewing up the wound leaving a tiny straw hole for pee and menstrual blood.
Then the husband is supposed to cut the scar open with a dagger on the wedding night.
Even before marriage, this creates all kinds of long term health problems and recurrent infections for some women. Of course, not all girls survive the procedure, traditionally the stitching is done using accacia thorns.
The first problem is using logic. These bans are to hurt trans people to score political points. Nothing more.
Proving they are logically unsound does nothing for the base that eats this up. They just want to hurt those that scare and confuse them, that’s all.
Real answer? Society doesn’t care about problems that only effect men.
I challenge you to name some problems that only effect men that werent caused by us men in the first place
Testosterone deficiency.
Nope, women can also experience that.
Prostate cancer?
Hey, I like your cat picture! Yes, prostate cancer is one, but with 14000 urologists in the USA alone we cant say society doesnt care about it
Yours too! I was just being facetious and taking your challenge literally (I agree with you). Cheers!
Yea, both my brother and father had prostate cancer - we haven’t invested money into treating either one which is why… neither of them died to it?
Fuck off with that incel bullshit.
Boner pills.
Same reason they want to ban trans medical procedures. “Family values”
It’s tradition, so supporting it means supporting the status quo. Change is scary, and throwing shade at the past means throwing shade at all the people who’ve been harmful things all their lives. Can’t have that, then they’d be to blame for not doing better (even though most probably didn’t know better nor had good resources to know better).
Hot take: I have never regretted being circumcized and never met anyone who regretted being circumcized so banning it doesn’t make sense for that reason alone. Some parents pierce their children’s ears without their consent, some give them frenectomies, pull teeth, reshape heads, bind feet, or do a variety of other “elective” procedures so I’m not sure why circumcision has so much hate.
Definitely a hot take to say because other people mutilate their children without their consent that we should be okay with this mutilation.
Also weird that people seem to take it as a personal attack that people want to ban pointless procedures because they had it done to them.
Peak “If it was good enough for me, it’s good enough for my kids” energy right there.
If we find people who regret it, do we then need to ban it? Is there a certain threshold of regretful people we need to meet?
Do you expect a lot of people to regret something that happened to them before they were capable of forming memories?
Google is right there buddy. Just google “people regretting being circumsized” before spearding this cult shit lol
Can find anything on the internet.
Especially groups of angsty men, who, for some reason are obsessed with the idea that they are victims of something.
That dude just listed a bunch of horrendous mutilations and went “if that’s ok then…”.
Critical thinking fail there.
I know we have never met (and after having read your previous post i am quite okay with that), but I hate the fact i am circumcised. I have severe loss of feeling from it. My father said he regretted it the instant it was done and would have never agreed to it if he knew the way i was going to scream.
I personally cannot regret being circumcised, as i had nothing to do with it other than being born with a foreskin.
Genital mutilation is incredibly sad and people are somehow tricking themselves into being ok with it because they can’t they dick tips back lol
Remember that cult where dudes were required to cut their balls off? It’s the same cult.
I’m always on the look out for uncut cocks to help abate the resentment of having my own mutilated.
Genital mutilation is awful but the really hard part is getting buy in to the idea that it’s actually genital mutilation. People don’t want to be identified as mutilated - men who have been circumcised don’t want the thing that happened without their consent to define them.
Exactly. The mainstream male culture is too toxic to admit that yeah some are mutilated and even if it’s not a big deal on average these people did have their rights taken away from them and their identity invaded without consent.
Maybe there would be more success with a softer word instead of mutilated but then there’s a risk of people pushing this away as “not a big deal”.
Seriously not even that hard of an area to rinse. I actually wonder how much sensitivity men lose because it it. Articles keep saying it doesn’t reduce sexual satisfaction but I cant walk around with my foreskin pulled back all day. It would dry out and hurt like crazy as soon as I put on clothes. There has to be some loss to men that were mutilated and no one wants to admit they are missing out.
tricking themselves into being ok with it because they can’t get they dick tips back lol
I’m not tricking myself. I am literally indifferent to the fact that it happened. If people want to argue that it’s unnecessarily traumatic to children that is a good argument and makes sense. If you want to argue that I am mutilated, traumatized, and tricking myself then you’re full of shit.
Proving my point here tbh
Unconsensual body modification is mutilation. Wouldn’t you be offended if your parents performed any other permanent irreversible body modification? Clip your toes or ears?
No one is trying to shame you or say that cut dicks are bad but it’s extremely unethical to do that to babies. Just think about how messed up that is.
Are you a doctor or any kind of medical expert?
You don’t have to be a medical expert to have an opinion on the topic of cutting bits off people.
You don’t have to be a medical expert to have an opinion on the topic of cutting bits off people.
You probably should be a medical expert if you’re going to insist that:
people are somehow tricking themselves into being ok with it
You’ve confused me with someone else.
I have not.
Op said:
people are somehow tricking themselves into being ok with it
Op was asked if they were a medical expert. You jumped in saying OP doesn’t have to be a medical expert to have an opinion. I jumped in saying OP should be a medical expert in order to insist on a medical opinion.
Wouldn’t you be offended if your parents performed any other permanent irreversible body modification? Clip your toes or ears?
I couldn’t possibly tell you because that’s not a thing that happens. “Oh, you’re not bothered by this thing that happened to you? What if it was a different thing?” Is not a compelling argument.
To be clear, I am in no way arguing for circumcision. What I am saying is don’t say you’re fighting on my behalf over something I’m not bothered by. Some armchair “expert” insisting I am covering up trauma I don’t have is just going to cause me to think the entire movement is a bunch of performative assholes who don’t care to actually listen to people who were directly impacted by the thing they are talking about. That is the definition of virtue signaling: You don’t actually care about what the people it actually happened to have to say, you need to make sure everyone sees that “you know better” and you’re doing this for them.
it’s extremely unethical to do that to babies
Now that, is a good argument. Stick with that. Babies are unable to speak for themselves and need people to advocate for them. I don’t need someone else to speak for me, I am fully capable of doing that myself.
Cutting foreskin versus turning a dick inside out are two very different things.
Yeah, one’s done without anesthetic to babies to make sure their dicks look like their dads’, and one’s done to adults with their fully informed consent
Huh? One completely changes a person’s anatomy, while the other slightly changes the look. These things are not comparable, and to do so is idiotic.
It does not just change the look.
Why are you allowed Viagra, minoxidil, testosterone supplements, lifts in your shoes, girdles, hair plugs, tanning booths, calf implants, guns, camo/armor, ozempic and all the other gender affirming care that many conservatives and theocratic nutjobs enjoy to help pretend they’re big, strong men and not the withering impotent cowards that they actually are?
It would require that a significant portion of the population admit their parents mutilated them as infants.
For some reason, they refuse to admit they were mutilated without their consent.
Some of them have subsequently mutilated their own sons, and admitting that was mutilation is beyond their capacity.
I was circumcised, I don’t have a problem with that fact. I understand why people do have a problem with circumcision and I don’t have an issue with it being banned.
Don’t try to induce mental trauma in me for my past that I’m not bothered by.
I have been physically punished when I did something bad as a kid. I’m not traumatized by that either but I still think it’s good that it’s illegal nowdays.
I agree. And if people went around claiming you must be traumatized over it and lying to yourself you’d say they’re full of shit. If someone was trying to convince you to be traumatized about it you’d tell them to fuck off.
I don’t think they’re saying people are traumatized. That word has a meaning. They’re saying people have issue reconciling the fact that their parents would do something like that to them and also that their parents are generally good people. Many people would rather not even consider that it wasn’t the right call, because it makes it easier to hold those two beliefs at the same time. However, people make mistakes. Those aren’t contradictory ideas if you can understand that people can be mislead.
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you a persons who is refusing to admit.
Thanks for demonstrating my point so effectively.
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the problem with the anti-circumcision movement.
There are good arguments to be had for banning circumcision. Refusing to recognize my autonomy, and insisting you know the “secret trauma of strangers” better than they do is not one of them. It makes you sound like an asshole who doesn’t know what they are talking about and will cause people to think the whole movement is the same way.
For those arguing to ban circumcision: you need to purge assholes like this from your numbers. They are only doing harm and not helping your cause.
Refusing to recognize my autonomy
Glad that, as an infant, you exercised your own autonomy, when your parents decided to circumcise you.
If you did exercise your own autonomy as an adult, then fine. That’s not what we’re talking about.
Your autonomy argument doesn’t work when you refuse to recognize my statements that I am not bothered by the fact that it happened to me. It makes you a blatant hypocrite when you say you are concerned about the autonomy of children but ignore my autonomy as an adult.
Children do in fact need someone to speak for them. When you insist on speaking for me when I am fully capable of speaking for myself and telling you not to, then I’m going to tell you to fuck off and won’t be very receptive to anything else you have to say.
What? They’re not bothered by it how the fuck is that refusing to admit anything? Does that mean if two people get jumped scared in a dark room and one for the rest of their life needs a light on in their room and the other doesn’t that they are secretly traumatized? No it doesn’t.
Also circumcision happens at birth most of the time so many people (myself included) don’t remember it. It should absolutely be illegal but as the other person said don’t tell someone what traumas they faced and how they should be effected.
You’re a clown
so many people (myself included) don’t remember it.
"She doesn’t remember being raped, so it’s ok’.
Also circumcision happens at birth most of the time so many people (myself included) don’t remember it. It should absolutely be illegal but as the other person said don’t tell someone what traumas they faced and how they should be effected.
Just because you don’t remember it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t effect you. Aside from the obvious physical effects, there are studies that suggest that neonatal stressors and pain (such as say amputating part of the baby’s genitals) can have long reaching psychological effects. For example:
https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=55727
Good for you not being bothered by it. But I think it’s rather easy to imagine that it can be a traumatizing experience and lead to psychological or physiological injuries. So it’s a medical procedure that should only be prescribed by doctors or if you are an adult.
Sure, I’m not arguing against that. I’m arguing against this mentality that everyone who has been circumcised should be carrying trauma over it, or must be carrying trauma but are lying to themselves. Don’t say you’re fighting on my behalf for something that doesn’t bother me in the slightest.
Fair point, not sure somebody is doing it and if so why, but that would be indeed contra productive. If someone does not feel traumatized why would anyone would want to convince them otherwise?
Fair point, not sure somebody is doing it and if so why, but that would be indeed contra productive
The post I was replying to:
For some reason, they refuse to admit they were mutilated without their consent.
For some reason, they refuse to admit they were mutilated without their consent.
I’m not sure that is exactly how they meant it, but I can see you interpret it that way. An unnecessary, irreversible medical operation was performed on you without your consent, but since you are not bothered by it - good for you.
AFAIK, circumcision reduces risk of HIV.
So does condoms
I have a neutral stance on circumcision. Do what you please. I just wish people like you could try to prove a point without using “mutilation” over and over to make it sound worse than it actually is. It puts an agenda on your point and biases it. There’s nothing mutilated about it. It’s just altered.
If you consider this to be mutilation then that would also mean you think any gender affirming surgery is also mutilation. And one could much easier argue that converting a penis to a vagina is far more mutilating than just removing some extra skin from a penis.
So if you’re trying to convince people to stop circumcision, stop using overly dramatic words and just explain why it’s not necessary. Otherwise I’ll just roll my eyes at people like you.
If you consider this to be mutilation then that would also mean you think any gender affirming surgery is also mutilation.
No one gets gender reassignment surgery until they can concentyi it as an adult.
False equivalence.
Maybe because people actually don’t feel “mutilated” and we don’t appreciate being called mutilated because you are obsessed with and upset about your own dick. I fully support it not occurring any more but to try and suggest everyone who is circumcizedis mutilated and equivocate it to female genital mutilation is ridiculous.
because we are a stupid, prudish, and vain country. we don’t want people to enjoy jerking off too much, nor do we want to reverse the trend of mutilation, which would make the old guard feel like they’re the broken ones
