• ObsidianNebula@sh.itjust.works
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    10 months ago

    Maybe I’m wrong here, but I think most people never thought Ukraine would win the war outright. Personally, I’ve never heard anyone say that they thought Ukraine would push Russia out entirely and the war would end. Even if Ukraine did secure all of its land, Russia would almost certainly continue fighting along the border to prevent it from joining any alliance like NATO. It seemed the best anyone hoped for is that there would be enough pressure applied to Russia that something changed within where they gave up on the war.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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      10 months ago

      People, and importantly western leadership, absolutely thought they could force a regime change in Russia when the war started. For example, recall all the whole rouble will be rubble talk. The plan was for the west to isolate Russia economically using sanctions and intimidate other countries to stop trading with Russia. Russian economy was supposed to collapse as a result, and people were gonna overthrow the government.

      This is why Europe went all in on the whole thing, they thought they’re gonna ride it out for a few months and then the west would get to put in a compliant regime in Russia like they did in Ukraine. After that, everything would get back to business as usual, and the regime would start selling off Russia to western companies the way Ukraine is currently being sold off.

      Of course that’s not how it went, and now we’re seeing a narrative shift because it’s becoming clear that the west failed to break Russia economically. Not only that, but Russia is emerging more assertive and has the backing of the Global South. This is the worst possible outcome for the west, and Europe in particular.

      • JucheBot1988@lemmygrad.ml
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        10 months ago

        Yes, I remember people talking about how Ukraine was “systematically destroying” the Russian army at Bakhmut, and how it was a meatgrinder from which Russia would never recover – in fact the opposite was true. Then (because Prigozhin) everyone was talking about corruption in the Russian military, how Putin’s hold on power was extremely fragile, etc. etc., and saying with utmost confidence that the Summer Counteroffensive (lol) would absolutely collapse that whole house of cards; Ukraine would reconquer Crimea, there would be regime change in Russia, President Navalny would oversee the “total decolonization” of Siberia (also lol). None of that happened either. Plus throughout it all, we were consistently told that if we would just give Ukraine Leopards, Abrams, F-16s, HIMARS, Javelins, Patriot systems, Challengers, cluster bombs, horcruxes, baatleths, sticks and stones, and of course more of that sweet, sweet US taxpayer money, those plucky Ukrainian would beat the Russians in no time whatsoever. Western governments absolutely thought Ukraine could win, and some of the (particularly Britain) are still clinging to that illusion.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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          10 months ago

          We’re finally entering the stage where the fantasy world western media crafted over the past two years is coming into contact with the material reality, and now reality always wins in the end.

      • Quastamaza@lemmy.ml
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        10 months ago

        I agree with everything, except the fact that the outcome is bad for Europe. Would be much worse had western governments reached their goals.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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          10 months ago

          The problem for Europe now is that it’s been effectively cut off from Russian resources. Now that Russia has managed to reorient their trade towards the east, I doubt they’ll want to deal with Europe going forward. Why bother trying to do trade with people who hate you and are constantly trying to undermine you when you can work with friendly partners instead. Any trade with Europe will be seen as being a very risky proposition by Russia unless there’s a dramatic political shift in Europe going forward.

          European leaders should’ve realized that it was in their interest to do everything possible to prevent the war from starting in the first place. Yet, they chose to follow Pied Piper right off the cliff instead.

      • ObsidianNebula@sh.itjust.works
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        10 months ago

        Maybe I’m not doing the best at explaining myself, but my intent was for my comment to say much the same as yours (which I totally agree with). I was just trying to say that I didn’t hear many people who thought Ukraine could actually win a war against Russia through fighting. There was definitely hope that Russia would have a regime change due to the pressure and that would put an end to the war, but that outcome seems more like Russia just ending fighting rather than Ukraine winning. I suppose my comment was moreso just arguing semantics on the word “win” in terms of this conflict, which is ultimately a bit pointless.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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          10 months ago

          Oh yeah, I completely agree with that. The idea was to have Ukraine hold the line while the economic war does the real damage. We’re very much on the same page here.

  • slappy@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    10 months ago

    There’s no realistic chance of someone winning the lottery, but it happens. If Ukraine is fighting for their sovereignty, NATO should be supporting them. End of story.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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      10 months ago

      Ukraine lost its sovereignty back in 2014 when the west ran a coup that overthrew the legitimate and democratically elected government. What NATO “support” has accomplished was to ensure that hundreds of thousands of people died, and millions more had their lives ruined without changing the outcome. End of story.

      • slappy@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        10 months ago

        Lol, you think the west is the only one attempting coups? Every country is messing with every other country, and feigning ignorance when they get caught. Odds are, we’ll all get caught with our pants down and New Zealand will reveal themselves as pulling all the strings.

            • OleoSaccharum@lemm.ee
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              10 months ago

              PS - I can almost relate to people who say things like this, or speculate about how every country in the world engages in torture.

              Almost. I can almost remember what it was like to dream like you of a world where everyone is as evil as USA, EU, Japan, NZ, Aus, SK. But thankfully it isn’t. It’s a historical process in motion. Not a static idealistic element of all nation states.

              The truth is that modern torture practices were invented and codified by the colonial empires through systematic concentration camp butchery in the Congo (devices which castrate people faster, etc), other colonies, then the British invented torture which didn’t leave marks for domestic use, the Five Techniques. The US has further innovated torture by electrocuting people in the testicles and other such things related to our military hazing culture that creates so many serial killers famous in our country.

              You can watch TV shows and pretend the world is all Guantanamo Bay, but we have the training manuals slappy. Going back to the torture methods of the british in malaysia and more. We have all the operation condor torture manuals and SERE. I have seen everything slappy. :-) It will always be out there now. Just like 24 taught me what I can do with a lamp wire in a few moments. We opened pandora’s box to try to control the world. We tried to rip the human soul apart and reassemble it. But we failed. And now we have to pay the price of watching our empire crumble.

              The Ukrainians are part of a trail of forensic evidence going back to the British empire in Malaysia slappy. For want of all the evidence but the torture they would be marked American American American :-)

              • slappy@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                10 months ago

                All that talk about Cuba makes me wonder, have you had a Cuban sandwich?

                It’s believed that the first Cuban sandwich was made more than a quincentenary ago the by Taíno tribe in Cuba. They were one of three different cultures that inhabited the island before Europeans arrived. Jorge Astorquiza, a food chemist in Tampa, says the Taínos used casabe bread, made from yucca, to make the dish. Instead of pork – an unavailable meat at the time – the Taínos stuffed fish and bird meat inside the center of two thin, crunchy slices of casabe, which would taste more like a cracker than a slice of dough.

                When Europeans eventually arrived on the island – primarily the Spaniards – meats such as pork and ham were quickly introduced into the native’s diets, transforming the sandwich into a succulent, meaty mass. Casabe was substituted for a doughy, bread-like alternative also, which at the time was easier to make for the islanders. “Traces of the sandwich originate back from the Indians,” says Astorquiza, “but the sandwich was really invented with what was brought from Spain.”

            • OleoSaccharum@lemm.ee
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              10 months ago

              I actually appreciate your wholehearted bewilderment instead of calling everyone a Russian bot. I know a guy in Oregon who just fishes all the time and works shit jobs who wrote an epic series on the Maidan if you ever decide to give a shit about what happened.

              To tell you the truth, I have no confidence any redditor could take the ride he and I took, back to WWII. Back to Stepan Bandera. Back to the Breton Woods conference which began the motions which positioned the US to grasp at total financial, military, technological, petrochemical, pharmaceutical, caloric, you name it we weaponized it economically on a scale the British and other little piddly “empires” could never dream of.

              Back before that, to the development of capitalism itself which was delayed in Germany resulting in its peculiar backward traits. How it indirectly affected the irrationalist philosophers which inspired Hitler.

              There is no hiding the coup in Ukraine slappy. It was well planned. It was heralded with a bipartisan tripartite of congressional emissaries you surely know and love: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bmaakY-PIAc (this video is search blocked on youtube and duckduckgo but is accessible). A paratrooper from north carolina helped orchestrate the false flag attacks at the Maidan. You’d never believe it all. The Russians can’t even believe some of the shit I know about Ukrainian history.

              Did you know Stepan Bandera was assassinated by the KGB with poison gas

              • slappy@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                10 months ago

                Talking about fishing, those prawn are a succulent gift from the depths that graces the nets of those who trawl Oregon’s bountiful waters. You know, fishing for prawn isn’t simply a matter of hauling them aboard indiscriminately. It’s the patient waiting, the understanding and embracing of nature’s tempo, and the hopeful expectation of a bountiful catch. Then once you’ve caught them they might be lightly sautéed with garlic and butter, capturing the essence of the sea, or they might be the crowning glory of a pasta rich with the flavors of the coast, intertwined with tomatoes, white wine, and herbs that dance upon the palate.

                You know, I have some great recipes for prawn:

                Garlic Butter Prawns

                Ingredients:

                500g large prawns, shelled and deveined

                4 tablespoons butter

                5 cloves garlic, minced

                Juice of 1 lemon

                2 tablespoons chopped parsley

                Salt and pepper to taste

                Lemon wedges for serving

                Instructions:

                Melt butter in a large pan over medium heat.

                Add garlic and sauté until fragrant.

                Increase the heat to high and add the prawns. Season with salt and pepper.

                Cook for 3-4 minutes or until the prawns turn pink and are cooked through, stirring occasionally.

                Drizzle with lemon juice and garnish with parsley.

                Serve immediately with lemon wedges on the side.

                Prawn Cocktail

                Ingredients:

                500g cooked, peeled prawns

                200g iceberg lettuce, shredded

                1 ripe avocado, sliced

                For the cocktail sauce:

                ½ cup mayonnaise

                2 tablespoons tomato ketchup

                1 teaspoon Worcestershire sauce

                A dash of Tabasco (optional)

                1 tablespoon lemon juice

                Salt and pepper to taste

                Instructions:

                In a bowl, mix all the ingredients for the cocktail sauce.

                Arrange the shredded lettuce at the bottom of serving glasses.

                Layer sliced avocado on top of the lettuce.

                Add a generous helping of prawns over the avocado.

                Drizzle the cocktail sauce over the prawns.

                Garnish with a lemon wedge and serve chilled.

                Prawn Stir-Fry with Vegetables

                Ingredients:

                500g prawns, shelled and deveined

                1 red bell pepper, sliced

                1 yellow bell pepper, sliced

                1 green bell pepper, sliced

                1 onion, sliced

                2 cloves garlic, minced

                1 tablespoon soy sauce

                1 tablespoon oyster sauce

                2 teaspoons sesame oil

                1 teaspoon cornstarch, dissolved in 2 tablespoons water

                Vegetable oil for stir-frying

                Salt and pepper to taste

                Cooked rice to serve

                Instructions:

                Heat vegetable oil in a wok or large pan on high heat.

                Add garlic and onion, and stir-fry until fragrant.

                Add bell peppers and stir-fry for a few minutes until crisp-tender.

                Toss in the prawns and season with soy sauce, oyster sauce, and sesame oil.

                When the prawns start to turn pink, stir in the cornstarch mixture to thicken the sauce.

                Cook until the prawns are thoroughly done.

                Adjust salt and pepper to taste.

                Serve hot over a bed of rice.

                Spicy Prawn Tacos

                Ingredients:

                500g prawns, shelled and deveined

                1 tablespoon chili powder

                2 teaspoons cumin powder

                Olive oil

                Salt and pepper to taste

                8 small tortillas

                1 cup red cabbage, shredded

                1 cup salsa

                ½ cup sour cream

                Lime wedges and fresh cilantro for garnish

                Instructions:

                Preheat a grill or grill pan to medium-high heat.

                Toss prawns with chili powder, cumin, olive oil, salt, and pepper.

                Grill prawns until they are cooked through and have a slight char.

                Warm tortillas on the grill for about 30 seconds on each side.

                Assemble tacos by placing a handful of cabbage on each tortilla, followed by a few prawns.

                Top with salsa and a dollop of sour cream.

                Garnish with fresh cilantro and serve with lime wedges.

                Creamy Prawn Pasta

                Ingredients:

                500g fettuccine pasta

                500g prawns, shelled and deveined

                2 tablespoons olive oil

                3 cloves garlic, minced

                1 cup heavy cream

                ½ cup grated Parmesan cheese

                ½ teaspoon red pepper flakes (optional)

                Salt and black pepper to taste

                Fresh parsley, chopped for garnish

                Instructions:

                Cook pasta according to package instructions until al dente, drain and set aside.

                In a large pan, heat olive oil over medium heat and sauté garlic until fragrant.

                Add prawns to the pan and cook until they turn pink.

                Pour in heavy cream and bring to a simmer.

                Stir in Parmesan cheese until melted and sauce begins to thicken.

                If desired, add red pepper flakes for some heat.

                Toss in the cooked pasta until well coated with the sauce.

                Season to taste with salt and black pepper.

                Garnish with chopped parsley and serve immediately.

                Enjoy experimenting with these prawn recipes, each offering a unique way to appreciate these delicious seafood treats.

      • FluffyPotato@lemm.ee
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        10 months ago

        ???

        You mean when Yanukovych tried to make himself dictator and killed some protestors for it only to flee when that triggered massive protests and the US wanted the people protesting to accept his deal and not get rid of him?

          • FluffyPotato@lemm.ee
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            10 months ago

            Ah yes a quora post that reads like a conspiracy theory with sources that point to other quora posts. This is why debunking qanon, flat earth and other such conspiracies is such a chore, no one ever has like one credible thing to point to, it’s a spiderweb of events that usually don’t properly connect but they all have massive documents that try to connect them anyways.

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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              10 months ago

              The article literally links to dozens of mainstream western sources. I love how libs are invariably unable to actually engage with the content, and simply resort to ad hominem when faced with facts that run contrary to their narrative.

              • xor@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                10 months ago

                “Quora is not a good source” is not an ad hominem.

                libs are invariably unable to actually engage with the content

                This, however, is exactly that

                • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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                  10 months ago

                  Dismissing the source because it’s Quora without actually engaging with the content of the source which links to lots of primary sources, is in fact an example of ad hominem.

                  Pointing out that libs use this tactic however is not.

        • ksynwa@lemmy.ml
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          10 months ago

          Should also point out that five police officers were tried for this supposed massacre. The trial itself was shady as shit and Kiev Independent acknowledged that the Ukrainian prosecution sabotaged the proceedings. Out of the five officers on trial, the three that were tried in absentia were conveniently given harsh sentences and the two in attendance did not serve any time, with one being acquited.

    • otp@sh.itjust.works
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      10 months ago

      I guess I don’t understand completely Lemmy, because some lib is calling me a Russian troll under this comment and I can’t see it unless I go to the original/non-hexbear post

      I think that was common on Reddit, too.

      It usually means they replied and blocked you, or deleted their comment later. (Or it got deleted by a mod)

      It’s people who have the mentality that the last word wins the argument, especially since anyone else who reads the comment chain would think you had nothing to say in response.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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      10 months ago

      The staggering scale of devastation that ensued when the West shut down diplomatic talks between Russia and Ukraine in March 2022 is truly mind-boggling. Thousands perished, countless others were injured or disfigured, while millions more had their futures irrevocably altered by this turn of events. This atrocious act ranks as one of the more egregious crimes against humanity in recent history.

    • troed@fedia.io
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      10 months ago

      This isn’t Xitter. No need to spread Russian propaganda here.

      There were no peace talks that would ever be acceptable for Ukraina.

    • davel@lemmy.ml
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      10 months ago

      Unfortunately many LIB instances cowadly defederate from hexbear, so you can’t see their comments.

      • TheLepidopterists [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        10 months ago

        Oh yeah, I knew about that part but I think I assumed the defederation would stop all visibility in both directions, and I guess they can see us but are hiding from us, like, as you say, cowards.

        • davel@lemmy.ml
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          10 months ago

          They can talk about you behind your back, though I doubt they’re usually aware they’re doing it. Most people don’t know the gory details of federation and don’t pay much attention to which instances are defederated with which.

    • Hathaway@lemmy.zip
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      10 months ago

      Just for a little bit of nuance, and I don’t tend to see eye to eye with .Hexbesr users but I swear I’m not here just to fight, but, as far as I’m aware, Zelensky can’t negotiate peace if there’s a concession of land. It’s in their government somewhere. He’d need the Ukrainian people to vote for and pass such a thing. Which, I don’t see happening. So perpetual war is what we get for a while I guess. Lovely.

      • ksynwa@lemmy.ml
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        10 months ago

        I would love to see a source for this. Even if this is true, it’s probably possible to circumvent regulations like this during war time. If elections can be suspended, opposition political parties can be banned then this is like possible as well.

        • Hathaway@lemmy.zip
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          10 months ago

          Here’s their constitution any peace deal must be ratified by the people.

          Which, I’m not going to say there isn’t going to be eventual concessions, those people aren’t going to vote to become a Russian state for a long time. Too much division. There are legitimate Russia supporters and there are a ton of pro-Ukrainian citizens. I don’t see how you do that, with actual democracy, for quite some time. Someone has to start losing fairly decisively sadly. I don’t see that happening for a while. A lot of people are going to die yet.

          Edit: article 156 more specifically as changing borders requires a constitutional change which requires the people to pass.

  • Alaskaball [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    10 months ago

    Times magazine is a stalinist rag that’s doing Putin’s bidding by publicly undermining the war effort against the Soviet Union!

    Don’t believe me? Look who times celebrated as person of the year back in 1943 when the OG Dictator was conqueroring Ukraine to steal it from the heroes that liberated it and genocide the ukrainian freedom fighters!

  • JucheBot1988@lemmygrad.ml
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    10 months ago

    The Biden Administration’s strategy is now to sustain Ukrainian defense until after the U.S. presidential elections

    An interesting admission here. I think this is true, though the real reason has nothing to do with helping Ukraine – it’s about avoiding a political disaster for the Democrats.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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      10 months ago

      Indeed, it seems that US mainstream media has pretty much abandoned the whole helping Ukraine narrative. Now they’re admitting that the goal is to cynically force Ukrainians to fight until the election, and then throw them under the bus after.

  • taladar@sh.itjust.works
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    10 months ago

    If Russia comes out of this conflict with any gains at all that could be construed as “worth it” for their side it will be an open invitation to keep invasions on the table as a method to apply again in the near future.

    • CableMonster@lemmy.ml
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      10 months ago

      I am not a republican, but sending aid to Ukraine so that more Ukrainians die, is something we shouldnt be doing.

        • CableMonster@lemmy.ml
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          10 months ago

          Those are easy words for someone that doesnt have to fight and die in a war that is already lost.

          • LopensLeftArm@sh.itjust.works
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            10 months ago

            The Ukrainian people are fighting for their freedom against Russian oppression. We should be helping them, and your defeatism is doing the opposite.

              • LopensLeftArm@sh.itjust.works
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                10 months ago

                Doesn’t matter that they’re conscripted, they’re invaders and aggressors and they need to be stopped. We should be helping Ukraine, and you’re over here waving the surrender flag.

                • CableMonster@lemmy.ml
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                  10 months ago

                  You said its that they want to fight for their freedom so we should help them. Turns out a large portion of them are forced to fight, they dont want to. How are you okay with giving money to a country so they can fight a war with war slaves?

                • Alsephina@lemmy.ml
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                  10 months ago

                  We should be helping Ukraine

                  By “we” I assume you mean your government. If you’re in the US your country already backed a fascist coup in 2014 and had been bombing eastern Ukrainians and ethnic Russians like in Donbas and Crimea for resisting. As you’d expect, people in Donbas welcomed the Russian army as liberators in 2022.

                  Not to mention blocking all negotiations with Russia because the war is profitable for the US MIC.

                  I wouldn’t exactly call that “helping”

                • iknt@lemmy.ml
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                  10 months ago

                  Yes, We should be helping Ukraine, the East Ukraine that has been bombed by West Ukraine since 2014. Did you not see what West Ukraine troops look like? Nazi symbols everywhere.

    • Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml
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      10 months ago

      Sure, blame the Republicans and not the Democrats wasting all their munitions on a middle east genocide.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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      10 months ago

      If you bothered reading the article before making your vapid comments, then you’d see that the aid that republicans are holding up isn’t going to change anything:

      The Biden Administration is entirely correct to warn that without further massive U.S. military aid, Ukrainian resistance is likely to collapse this year. But U.S. officials also need to recognize that even if this aid continues, there is no realistic chance of total Ukrainian victory next year, or the year after that. Even if the Ukrainians can build up their forces, Russia can deepen its defenses even more.

      • xor@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        10 months ago

        It seems your reading comprehension is pretty poor: the article doesn’t say that Ukraine can’t win ever, regardless.

        It says that they can’t win a total victory this year or next year, even with further aid.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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          10 months ago

          My reading comprehension is just fine. Anybody with a functioning brain can understand that Ukraine’s prospects of winning will only be worse from here on out. Western support is already cracking, and that’s the only thing that’s been keeping Ukraine afloat this whole time. Meanwhile, the west is already openly admitting that it lacks capacity to continue supplying Ukraine at even current levels while Russian military industry is rapidly expanding. It’s incredible that people still can’t understand the basic facts of the situation.

        • sinovictorchan@lemmygrad.ml
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          10 months ago

          Is this a confession that Euromaiden Kyiv depends solely on support from the US government which imply no popular support domestically or internationally, that no defection from Russian military squads occurred contrary to the claim by Pax Americana media, and that Russians did not waste all their resource for the war?

    • JucheBot1988@lemmygrad.ml
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      10 months ago

      Yeah, no. I’m from the states, and these Ukronazi losers can fuck off and pay their own bills. The same goes for Taiwan, Israel, and whatever other meme countries our government and ruling class – the real traitors – are supporting. Americans have their own bills to pay.