Upvotes seem to just federate as likes and dislikes.
I get this is obviously intended behaviour on part of actpub but I’d love for there to be a pseudo-anonymous voting system too. Maybe an option to hash user credentials when added to likes to ensure that they’re unique whilst obfuscating the original user.
There is already a foolproof method that is immune to any abuse of trust by admins; create an alt account.
I mean, seems pretty pseudoanonymous to me, unless Musk had another kid he named apj2k36 or something.
People have really weird usernames sometimes
Hash them with the post ID appended, so a user can’t be identified across posts
There are some instances that disable downvotes altogether!
Oof, hell no. That’s some Facebook level cancer right there when they removed downvotes.
It’s just a form of white washing that makes the same people who made up being offended by “black lists” and “master branch”.
Some people seem to really hate down votes. I don’t give a shit either way.
Who cares? If your upvote or downvote or any other activity you deliberately perform on a public platform is something you’re embarrassed about and wouldn’t be willing to do in a face to face engagement you probably shouldn’t be doing it.
I agree, and if you absolutely must, then maybe make an alt?
The main problem is most people assume their votes are private, as they are private on reddit.
I think lemmy instance admins can see this too. Doesn’t even have to be a friendica instance
Any instance admin can see the vote history.
Or you can be an instance admin. In the next lemmy version (1.0.0), mods will also be able to view votes in their communities.
mods will also be able to view votes in their communities.
You can already do this using tesseract, by the way (not tesseract.dubvee.org, strangely?)
On t.lemmy.dbzer0.com i can see both upvotes and downvotes (for all my modded comms):
I guess the feature was already merged in one of the past Lemmy versions then?
I think it’s been implemented this whole time, but it’s just that the default lemmy-ui doesn’t show it
You can already do it with a database query iirc.
I mod a small community with like 6 monthly users, I’m the only one who post or comment and the average post have 3/4 upvotes and 1 downvote. And I always ask myself who is downvoting my submissions, because it’s make no sense to me that someone take the job of pressing the downvote button on a link to a EDM set. Couldn’t they just block the community?
Some people just downvote for the sake of it.
It’s not about blocking, it’s about sending a message.
No, sometimes it is about blocking.
If you run a small community like several of us do, even a small amount of downvotes can completely shut down a discussion from ever being seen by anyone else. It’s a way of shutting down conversation.
If someone neither wants to contribute nor lurk, and merely drag down a community, they shouldn’t be part of it.
I understand that if you are exploring on all and so, sometimes some communities you couldn’t care less appear on the feed, it’s happens all the time to me with sports news and related, but I just block them and move on.
Use https://tesseract.dubvee.org/home/all/scaled to show downvotes
Assess whether banning makes sense for someone who only downvotes content
How exactly can I see who downvoted? Can’t seem to find it in the regular view, and the debug info only shows the vote count, not the voter.
I’d also like to know as I’m in the same boat you are. I’m just leaving this comment to remember to look later and see if you got an answer.
I wish friendica had a mobile app. I spend more time on my phone
Its webui is responsive (i think), its compatible with the mastodon api.
Raccoon for Friendica is great if you’re on Android.
That’s pretty cool. Sometimes in an argument there’s that (1/-1) thing going on, would be funny to see how both are downvoting each other.
This isn’t just a Frendica thing; you can see this from Mastodon, mbin/kbin, etc. Many people seem to think upvotes and downvotes are private, but the reality is that they’re publicly available information by default in ActivityPub. Lemmy just hides the information on the front-end for “normal” users; If you’re a moderator you can clearly see everything.
If one wants truly pseudonymous voting, they’re free to try out PieFed. See the announcement post for this feature for more details.
I’m not sure about the downvotes part (i failed to recreate this lmao) but you can already view upvotes with mbin. Piefed solves this problem with a option to make your votes private (but from my tests it didn’t work? weird)
IIRC, piefed’s private votes are disabled for “trusted” instances. You can see which instances are trusted here.
Damn, so this is how I find out we’re least trustworthy part of the commonwealth.
That is stupid and defeats the point and makes me rethink my decision to support piefed.
Bummer.
It depends what your threat model is. Admins being dickheads about who downvoted what was the main issue at the time so I made it about choosing which admins to trust.
If future Lemmy versions show votes to mods (not just admins) then Pandora’s box would be well and truly open so we’d need to rethink this.
Yeah I guess for me I don’t really trust any admins. At the end of the day that’s a permanent database of user activity which could be passed along to anyone, so ideally the minimum threat surface would be that it exists only on the home instance.
Also, I kind of just don’t get the point of obfuscating for some and not others unless there are some politics going on behind the scenes, which just gives me even more cause for concern. I think this is a killer feature for piefed and really addresses a major concern I have with Lemmy so it is just disheartening to hear that the functionality has been nerfed for seemingly no good reason.
I hear ya. There was quite a bit of back-and-forth about it and we ended up with a compromise. It would be good to have more configurability of this to suit different preferences.
There’s a niche out there for a max-privacy instance. No server logs, no email verification, automatic deletion of old content. And if it was running PieFed, no trusted instances set.
Not a niche I want to pursue but someone could.
Do you have a link to any discussions on this? I have browsed local posts on piefed.social but can’t find it. I’d be curious to see more context in support of the trusted instance concept.
Check this out for general background discussion https://piefed.social/post/205362. The idea to differentiate by trusted instances was mine and not discussed there. Pretty sure there was some discussion about it in the Matrix channel which is lost to time.
During the recent roadmap planning one of the potential units of work was to sort all this out https://piefed.social/post/411591 but it didn’t garner significant interest and didn’t make it through to the final version of the roadmap.
Ah, well that sucks :( i thought it just used a different strategy to do so if it was trusted, not outright disable it.
Will correct it, thanks
IIRC PieFed’s method is to send the upvote using a second random username not connected to your username.
I wish I could see what scummy lemm.ee mods removed my comments and got me banned
you can, names are shown in other frontends like phtn.app.
Thanks but doesn’t work if you’re site-banned.
The whole concept of the Fediverse as social media is that all the data is public. Stop acting like these servers are giving out private data.
I don’t think everybody knows that and at least here on Lemmy, it doesn’t show it by default like friendica. The fediverse doesn’t necessarily mean that all data has to be public. It’s just that it’s way harder to have a sense of truth without public data.
I know, but some people assume votes are private.
It’s not good practice. Really one shouldn’t be assuming anything is private or some entitlement to privacy on a service where all content you post is made publicly available to any and all linked instances. They miss the point of a federated public forum. If one wants privacy, data must be kept locally only. That’s why Lemmy has local-only communities, the “private” community aspect that many people want just won’t be federated, because you can’t make something like this private otherwise.
I know, but most people don’t.
I know, it’s a really big problem here and on the Fediverse in general because people get so outraged and entitled over something that just is the way things are, this wouldn’t work any other way.
If you’d only ever interacted with Lemmy and not read up on how ActivityPub works then that’s a reasonable assumption, it’s not like anything (that I’ve noticed!) actually tells you that your votes are public, and they don’t look to be public in the places you’re likely to see!
Lemmy likes aren’t meant to be public, this is just other software failing to respect the privacy Lemmy indicates.
That’s almost as bad as using robots.txt to claim sites are private and secure and just whining that people/bots should respect it.
You should assume voter data is fully public and fully open. It otherwise is in the federated ecosystem.
The comparison doesn’t work because both Lemmy and Mbin are implementing the same standard, while robots.txt is mostly an honour system.
You should assume voter data is fully public and fully open. It otherwise is in the federated ecosystem.
Information not being private isn’t the same thing as information being public.
Except ActivityPub data is by in large already not private, it is handed out to any tom dick and harry who run a server and have subscribed to actors on this one, and most of the time, it doesn’t even really require extra authorization. That is fundamentally how ActivityPub and federation work, but you can’t have any expectation of privacy in this system when it comes to the content shared. Expecting it to be private because it’s labeled is as dumb as expecting your website not to get scraped because you said so in robots.txt.
I didn’t say it was private, I said it wasn’t public, there’s a difference. If you asked me what number I was thinking of I’d tell you, but that’s not the same thing as the number I’m thinking of being public information. ActivityPub is, at its core, about consent. We have consented to having our data be sent to any person able to serve 200 responses on an inbox endpoint by using instances with open federation. We could, if that makes us uncomfortable, moved to a closed federation system where we only accept request from an allowlisted set of instances, with software that follows the spec’s public addressing system.
Information not being private isn’t the same thing as information being public.
I’m not sure that is a realistic expectation these days.
idk, the label is also an honor system, if it can be just ignored like robots.txt.
I didn’t explain what I meant very well. To scrape a website you don’t need to understand robots.txt, implementing robots.txt is something you do to be a good netizen. But to get like info from Lemmy, implementing ActivityPub is a requirement.
Now I’ll admit, it’s not a great system and I do wish we had something better, but I also don’t think “this isn’t a good way to communicate preferences” is a good reason to ignore them.
Oh. If the only thing stopping the votes being public is a label saying pretty please don’t make this public then it does seem very open to abuse.
Especially in federated networks where the data isn’t under access control, doubly so if the privacy extension is optional
There’s no way that isn’t going to be abused. Some marketing or tracking agency will setup a fediverse server and just collect all data like this for free. Or worse, take advantage of a friendica instance to bombard it with requests for data collection purposes.
What can they use that data for?
It would only be usable data if they could show personalized ads to the users. They can’t.
All they know is that Meldrik up/downvoted this and that, but outside of Lemmy they have no idea who Meldrik is.
If you think metadata is worthless, I would like to make you aware about Snowden and his revelations. Look them up.
I think the issue is that many Lemmy users will think more carefully about what they comment than what they up/downvote, as a comment appears connected to your username but a vote doesn’t. You might decide against commenting on something you disagree with because you don’t want to get in a fight, instead just downvoting it, but if people then know if was you who downvoted can still pick the fight.
Basically the issue is you’re revealing a lot more information than you might initially have realised if you’d have known votes were public all along. Maybe a disgruntled person uses that to dox you, or maybe a corpo feeds all that information into their fancy computer system to work out who you might be, who knows.
Yes, but as long as you don’t reveal your identity, they can’t do much to track you.
They don’t have access to your IP.
Of course, it you’re using the same username over multiple services, or reveal identifying information (which is much easier to analyse now due to AI) they will be able to track you.
My name is actually Ricky Rigatoni and I am King of the Brooklyn Mafia.
Is IP not logged anywhere in Lemmy/ ActivityPub?
Nope just server
If image embeds aren’t cached by your server they can be abused to gain IP, but that’s a hack, it’s not intended.
You can set a Lemmy server to proxy image requests
Exactly, that’s why I said for ones that aren’t cached. They can be cached, but it’s not a guarantee they will be.
Proxying is a separate option from caching. I think it was added in 0.19.5
I think server admins can access. It makes sense moderation wise, if for keeping a tab on alts for enforcing permabans.
Well yes, the whole concept of the fediverse is that of social media as a public service. All activitypub data is public.
So you’re agreeing with me that it will be abused.
But it has absolutely nothing to do with how it is displayed in Friendica.
Not them but yes but it’s not a feature of the system, it’s a failure of the humans.
What is it that you mean by that? Do you mind rephrasing your reply?
Tools do not have morality or ethics, only people do. Some people use tools in a morally and/or ethically questionable manner, either for profit or because it amuses them.
True, we perpetuate the unjust systems around us. Systems can be constructed to unfairly benefit some over others as well, like how capitalism unfairly benefits the wealthy.
It’s the age old argument of “It’s not Communism that’s bad, it’s the human element.”
Speaking as if any system created by humans will ever be free of the human element, which is of course faulty logic.
I mean, when the human element is literally not doing communism, yes, that would be a problem.
That’s the problem: for communism to work, it requires perfect beings that act according to how the system is designed. Humans do not do that.
, which is of course faulty logic
…which is why design systems so that when using them we can account for the human element, right? Come on! We have centuries-spanning systems even industries built on that! Engineering, avionics, Yelp reviews…
I think you’re forgetting the context of the discussion…
Not them but yes but it’s not a feature of the system, it’s a failure of the humans.
A system designed to be used by humans has an attribute bound to be exploited by humans and it’s the failure of humans for exploiting it.
i think we should be accounting for it if we don’t wanna get swallowed by shitty interests tbh
Like, of course; tho any sort of “accounting” should IMO start from the base that the intent of this entire thing is to publicly share public information.
.
This feature has been available to all kbin/Mbin users since the beginning, btw.
I wanna say it was built into Lemmy originally as well but they removed it from the FE
It’s in lemmy but only available to instance admins
Cant you just defed with them?
If you can identify all of their instances, yes.
This is nothing new. Fire up any ActivityPub server and you can see everything over the wire. As a Lemmy admin of my server of just me, I can also see it in the UI.
this is an icky issue because lemmy sends votes with empty addressing, so remote instances should count them but not show them to anyone. however mastodon (and *key) sends likes with empty addressing too, but considers them public. lemmy is (surprisingly) right here and should request that the rest of fedi respects the protocol and hides stuff based on its addressing. maybe open issues on mastodon and friendica
also this issue probably exists when seeing lemmy posts on any microblogging instance
How to fo that?
Asumming you meant “do”, go to friendica (friendica.world) and paste the fedilink (press the rainbow button) into the searchbar.
