There have been various posts here in the last days describing how difficult it is for new people to start using Lemmy. In fact they are absolutely correct, it is much easier to get started on Reddit. But what many forget is that Lemmy is not a corporation employing dozens of full-time designers, running A/B-tests and so on. Lemmy is an open source project run by volunteers, with only @dessalines and me working on it full-time. Neither of us is a particularly good designer, and our time is mainly spent working on the backend (database, federation, api), and preparing the upcoming 1.0 release.
If you see anything on join-lemmy.org or in the Lemmy UI itself that could be improved, the best option is to make that improvement yourself. Both of them use standard web technologies (nodejs, tailwindcss, inferno etc). The userbase here is quite technical so there are many of you able to contribute. We rarely reject any pull requests as long as they make a real improvement. Though it usually requires a little back and forth to review the changes and then address the review comments.
You can find the source code for join-lemmy.org here and follow development instructions in the readme. Regarding the default Lemmy UI go here and read the documentation with development instructions. If you are not a developer you can still help, for example by improving the documentation. Additionally you can make changes to the texts for joinlemmy and lemmy-ui.
All this said, there have also been some suggestions to make onboarding easier by directing new users to a hardcoded default instance. This may sound like a good idea at first but won’t work well in practice. Running such an instance would take significant time for administration and moderation, but we maintainers are already too busy. Besides it would be impossible to reach an agreement who this default instance should federate with or how exactly it should be moderated. So if you want to get nontechnical users to Lemmy, the solution is to link them directly to a specific instance based on their interests.
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In terms of the “default instance” suggestion, I have an interesting hybrid suggestion. What about having an “easy on-ramp” instance where you get registered for one month with a hard-exit (auto-migrate to other instance, perhaps using some kind of federated-auth/token system for the migration, and forced password-setup on first use of the new instance). At any point during on-ramp the user could configure destination-instance from a list in the settings (or configure auto-export for manual import to any other “auto-migrate-unsupported” instance), with optional early-migration if the user has decided before the end of the month. Optionally a recommendation engine could iteratively curate a list of suggested instances based on usage during on-ramp (admins of those instances could provide - limited number of - tags of their choosing for the engine to use for matching). That part could be opt-in because probably a lot of users would find it creepy. The UX would need to be very user-friendly “pointy clicky” because that would be the overwhelming target demographic of such an instance. I think “on-boarding and educating” is better than “gatekeeping” (which feels like the “if you need to ask the price you can’t afford it” shopping trope). A nice side-effect is it already painlessly introduces users to the killer-feature “easy migration” between instances due to data-portability.
That would take a significant amount of work to implement, and we dont have the resources for it. But all the code is open source, so youre welcome to give it a try yourself.
I don’t really agree that it’s much easier to start on Reddit. Especially nowadays.
-Post from an IP that was once used by a banned account? Also banned (after first being shadowbanned)
-Try to post in any niche sub of your choosing after making an account? Forget it, wait three weeks and farm 3K karma first (which encourages shitposting and reposting, lowering quality)
-Deviate a fraction of an inch from whatever sub’s 500-page rulebook? Banned.
-Try to argue an unbanning? That’s a permanent mute.
-Post anything - and I do mean anything - in a “wrong” sub, get immediately permabanned by a slew of subs you didn’t even know existed.
-Some mod doesn’t agree with something you posted? Even if it was 5 years ago in a sub that has since been deleted? Banned and muted.
Reddit is an absolutely terrible experience for new posters. How they even manage to retain a tenth of them is beyond me. I encourage them to keep it up however, more traffic for Lemmy.
Another to add: Caught an IP ban for “report abuse” after reporting several bigots. Couldn’t have been more than 5. No warning or previous infractions, just straight up IP banned. Appealing did nothing, of course. Eventually just stopped caring.
Saw quite a few people saying they had the same thing happen. The general consensus of those threads was just not to report *anything *anymore…
This post is about UI and onboarding tho, not about mod behaviour.
Here’s another for your list:
- Use a VPN? Blocked from accessing it. (I try to get info from internet searches sometimes and they block me, I have to use a VPN because am in China.)
This is only if you aren’t logged in. If you login to reddit you can use a VPN fine. It is still so incredibly annoying though.
Oh interesting to know thank you. I nuked my accounts there so am not doing that, I guess.
Yeah new users are like, semi-shadow banned for a while
I’m doing my small part.
Went from 100% lurker on Reddit to regularly active lemmy commenter
It’s so much easier to comment and get replies here.
Same. I still occasionally browse Reddit, but I have a rule that I don’t post or comment there. I do post and comment here.
Same, I only lurk to see what’s popping but dont comment here.
Don’t forget to adblock them so you’re draining the resources, minutely and slowly, but draining nonetheless.
I don’t think that Reddit is so much better. The interface at the moment is full of ads that make i confusing. The only thing is the community search that is a bit cumbersome, but this is due to federation, and understood. On the other hand the federation with Mastodon/Friendica/whatever is super-powerful, hand honestly enjoyable
Thank you for all your work
The only thing is the community search that is a bit cumbersome, but this is due to federation, and understood.
This would help https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/2951
The only thing good about Reddit is that is where everyone is. Full stop.
All this said, there have also been some suggestions to make onboarding easier by directing new users to a hardcoded default instance. This may sound like a good idea at first but won’t work well in practice. Running such an instance would take significant time for administration and moderation, but we maintainers are already too busy. Besides it would be impossible to reach an agreement who this default instance should federate with or how exactly it should be moderated. So if you want to get nontechnical users to Lemmy, the solution is to link them directly to a specific instance based on their interests.
Wholeheartedly agree with this. Also people should get use to taking responsibility for their online experiences. Corporations have made people stupid to the point they reject autonomy.
Let’s all be clear, Reddit is part of the surveillance state.
You can’t log in without Google and Apple trackers being allowed. New Reddit has recapcha trackers on every page. Only old.reddit doesn’t track what you see, just what you write.
Your thoughts and content belong to a publicly traded company focused on profits if you use reddit.
The userbase here is quite technical so there are many of you able to contribute.
As a project manager, I can help by ballooning the scope and setting the deadline to yesterday! Doing my part!
Didn’t be so hard on yourself. You can also pester us about the status of Jira tickets.
Honestly, if my PM never pestered me about the status of my tickets, I would never close them. Some of us need the pestering!
Also, why haven’t you closed that low priority ticket and you keep working the high priority tickets that are new.
My old company solved that problem by making everything high priority by default, with efforts directed by the whims of the CTO.
That’s a recipe for disaster if I’ve ever heard of one. Fixing Jane in accounting’s monitor or figuring out the routing table for the entire enterprise. All top priority!
Don’t forget about asking how the project is going too!
I got you guys, lets start with daily standup to get everyone on the same page.
Oh, I can do project management too!
Your next task is waves hands around … the thing … waves hands around some more … like the other thing … but different.
Good post
My proposal have been a little more complicated, but IMO works well for a BFU:
- create some set of rules for “default instances” - every instance that wants to be in the list must follow them and will be periodically checked
- I don’t have any particular rules in mind, but some examples might include active moderation team, obviously registrations being open and if you really want to make it easy, either no application question or having it automatically approved by an automod of some kind
- on join-lemmy, present a registration form that will create an account on a randomly selected instance from the pool and redirect there afterwards
- there should be a link somewhere for “experts” where you could link to the current wizard
I’m willing to work on this if we can sit down and agree on the criteria for the pool. I can also ask my UX guy to help a little.
Feel free to text me here or on Matrix if this is something you think is worth pursuing. I’d also appreciate if you let me know it’s not the direction you want to go in.
I don’t have any particular rules in mind, but some examples might include active moderation team, obviously registrations being open and if you really want to make it easy, either no application question or having it automatically approved by an automod of some kind
Hexbear meets those requirements, which rule would you add to exclude them? Back in the day, exploding heads would fit them too
Cooking up global fediverse rules specifically meant to try and exclude an instance is crossing the line imo. If you don’t like interacting with them, join one of the many instances that have already blocked them.
This kind of crusade goes against the spirit of the fediverse imo.
These aren’t global fediverse rules, they’re constraints meant to apply specifically to the new user experience on Lemmy only.
Have a look at that frontpage and tell me if you think an average potential new joiner is going to stick around: https://lemmygrad.ml/
As long as it’s clearly labeled as something like “a communist instance”, why not? Some potential Lemmy users would probably feel right at home there. It doesn’t even have to be a controversial label, just a factual description that the Lemmygrad people would agree with.
In that case I agree. The issue I see is people saying “just give new joiners a random instance across the top 20”, denying the unique culture of a few of them
Ah, yes, that makes sense now! If it is an automatic, random server selection, then I also agree that it should be only generic, non-controversial instances that are selected.
maybe they should need to maintain a certain percentage of high pop instances that federate with them. Basically establishing a standard of trust.
That was just rules to make it work on the technical side - you’re not helping the user experience if you have to wait half a day until someone manually approves your registration.
The rest would need to be discussed and actually thought out (and agreed upon with Lemmy devs, who own the join-lemmy domain).
I haven’t given it much thought because I see no point if it never gets implemented.
I would call them “starter” instances. And I’m in agreement there should be a set of principles that these instances should follow but at the same time telling new users that it’s okay to switch instances. I started in .world but moved due to their increasingly conservative changes.
While I personally would steer new users away from .world, I think it’s more important to tell them it’s okay to switch instances.
Here’s my idea for rules as well as the ones u came up with: No illegal shit No extremist ideology No hexbear or ml cos they will claim they are being unfairly censored and the irony of that is pretty funny.
create some set of rules for “default instances” - every instance that wants to be in the list must follow them and will be periodically checked
I don’t have any particular rules in mind, but some examples might include active moderation team, obviously registrations being open and if you really want to make it easy, either no application question or having it automatically approved by an automod of some kindThe Mastodon Server Covenant is pretty much what you describe here, and could be used as a starting point: https://joinmastodon.org/covenant
I like this!
- create some set of rules for “default instances” - every instance that wants to be in the list must follow them and will be periodically checked
Thank you for your work :) I’m not sure I’ll have time for this, but I’ll try to check what I can improve on the UI. Where can I find the sources for the “alternative UI”?
- https://a.lemmy.world - Alexandrite UI
- https://photon.lemmy.world - Photon UI
- https://m.lemmy.world - Voyager mobile UI
- https://old.lemmy.world - A familiar UI
There is usually an about page with the source link, or the joinlemmy apps page should have a link.
Yes, I asked too fast. It was quite easy to find out. Thus said, those are complete reforge of the UI, so that’s a lot more work.
I do my part! (Throw a couple of PRS the devs way then go back to my goblin hole)
I have nothing to add except I hope you’re still enjoying Lord of the Rings.
I do, although the sections in Mordor are a bit tedious to get through. But its worth it for all the details that were left out of the movies.
There’s still plenty more detail waiting for you after LotR!
I definitely plan to read the Silmarillion, because the history of middle earth sounds so interesting.
It’s worth it! I only read it last year and it gave me a whole new level of appreciation for the other stories.
Once you’ve read the Silmarillion, there’s also The Children of Húrin. If you start from the Hobbit > LOTR > Silmarillion > CoH, it’s basically a steady progression of increasing epicness and tragedy.
I suppose the Silmarillion is the most epic, but Children of Húrin is the most intensely tragic.
It’s a great book!
I’m the OP of one of the posts that blew up about UX.
This is great news, I will look into building something like join-lemmy/onboarding that could guide users, or improving join-lemmy
Nice !
Its best if you improve the existing site, that way you dont have to worry about hosting, or directing users to your new site.
Easier
If choosing a server and signing up is too “hard” for someone, then I’d rather they stay on Reddit.
Can Lemmy benefit from your suggestions, definitely. But the easy vs hard structure to these types of conversations feel a lot like the shopping cart dilemma.
It’s not that it’s “too hard”, it’s that even a tiny set back for something that someone is already hesitant to do can be enough to make them not do it. It’s just easier to call that “hard” or “confusing” than say “even a tiny set back for something that someone is already hesitant to do can be enough to make them not do it.”
Then they don’t want to be here. Part of the reason this community is so great is because it’s fueled by those who actively want to participate in a place like this. It doesn’t have to be a place for everyone to be the best place for those here.
You can actively want to do something but be bombarded with minute ultimately irrelevant details and still get frustrated.
The great thing about Lemmy is that it is an open source project and you can tweak the UI yourself if you have a bit of HTML and CSS knowledge. Do not be put off by fancy words like Bootstrap, Inferno, Tailwind, many are just HTML, CSS, or Javascript under the hood.
If anyone on here is looking for a more a more accessible Lemmy theme, I helped make one recently for the instance RBlind: RBlind Lemmy Themes (Codeberg repo). I made detailed documentation as well which could be helpful for theme developers or for those interested in helping improve Lemmy’s accessibility.
Since making the theme, I’ve been making some pull requests (PRs) with lemmy-ui and lemmy-docs to try improve the UI and docs based on some of the things I saw while developing the theme. I hadn’t done anything involving PRs before but the Lemmy team dessalines and nutomic and other contributors have been very receptive so far and offering helpful suggestions. The changes are small but every bit counts, and when they trickle down to all users I am hoping it’ll be a positive change for many users.
