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Love an app that defaults me to people I actually follow and doesn’t bombard me with endless reams of ads or engagement bait.
We’ll see how long that lasts. But for now, its a blast from the past to be on a social media app I don’t hate.
Is this 30 million accounts created? Active user numbers would be a lot more meaningful.
As an illustration, if you have a platform that’s gaining 100,000 users each month and losing 100,000 other users each month, it’s basically going nowhere. But it will eventually reach this “30 million users” milestone too if all it means is account creations.
Active user numbers is probably less than 1 million, but still, 30 million accounts created is quite likely pretty good even if most of them aren’t active.
It’s something, but there’s really no frame of reference to know if it’s good or how good. Because companies rarely talk about this number. Twitter might have billions of accounts created if we look at all time.
Actives are what count.
I wonder how many of the 30 million accounts are bots.
I’ve come to realize that bluesky already had all lot of what I’m happy to not see on masto. Good that there is a place for it to exist without me.
That content is also probably what the majority of people like about it.
Im one of them
Sorry to hear that, but at least some of them are not on Xitter.
Sounds disgusting
It didn’t say anything except share some stats. What part of that was disgusting?
That that many people are willing to hop on another VC funded platform.
The average person doesn’t care about that and large scale development cost money. It doesn’t really bother me either if it’s being run respectfully and I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt until it’s not.
I agree with you, the number/the rise of users on such platforms makes me feel sick. There literally is a built, proven, & running alternative. The difference is what, “the onboarding process” which instance to choose if you wanna post & vote?
You mean the alternative where a random person decides what people you’re allowed to interact with?
Are people running megacorps not random persons deciding what you can view or not, but with extra wealth concentration?
And the beauty of federation is that the process is (and is evolving ever more into) a bit more democratic with easier transitions or irrelevancy of what your home fedistan is.
With megacorps you don’t have even the theoretical option, you can just move to an entirely new platform.
This is why we need social networks where you can choose your moderation independently of your instance. And Mastodon is not that. I’m not sure if Bluesky is.
Why would Bluesky be?
It has a responsibly to its owners to maximise profit.
So they will block & force-promote just like any Twitter or Facebook.And what is self-moderation? The block function? Or like choosing your interests (like subscribing to tags/channels/instances)?
Always reminds me that George Carlin was right
I looked at the terms of service and noticed that they bind you into arbitration, limit your terms to $100, mandate you to travel to Delaware for dispute, and force you into mass arbitration if your dispute is similar to others.
Pass
Funny, someone shared an article in another post about all corporate money going to Delaware, https://www.icij.org/inside-icij/2022/06/delaware-is-everywhere-how-a-little-known-tax-haven-made-the-rules-for-corporate-america/
Off topic, but I pointing this out reminded me of visiting some ancap circles to see the crazy stuff they discuss. At one point there was a question about how externalities would be handled in their system of private courts and such. When ever I do read some terms and conditions there is almost always something in regard to arbitration. Predictably they were not happy about someone pointing that out and explaining that it is for the benefit of corporations not the customers.
During signup, they make it sound like it’s a federated service. It is not. Dumped it when it was explained to me.
Unfortunately that’s standard for pretty much every service in existence until the government determines otherwise or the users demand it en masse. No company is going to willingly expose themselves to any more risk than they absolutely have to. There’s zero benefit to them.
Let’s not call disabling the right to sue a “business risk”. That’s like calling the right to stop paying for the service a “risk” - it’s riskdiculous.
By “business risk”, they just mean bad for the business, ethics aside
Yes that’s what they mean. I tried to persuade against meaning that.
Let’s not call disabling the right to sue a “business risk”.
…and why not?
That’s like calling the right to stop paying for the service a “risk”
But…that’s what it is? I promise if they could remove that risk with a few words in the TOS, and it was legal, they’d all be doing that too.
The right to take legal action for harm done is imperative. It’s importance is diminished if conflated with a legitimate business risk (like research and development). It should be illegal to deny it.
I agree. But we weren’t discussing hypotheticals, we were discussing reality.
And we should just accept that?
Doesn’t matter if you should or not. Point is you accept it or you don’t use any service whatsoever.
Looks like there’s a viable alternative here.
Really? Who are you going to sue here? And how much money do you think you can sue them for?
Oh no, there’s no money or profit motive here. I guess that’s terrible.
That’s not what I asked.
I don’t think forced arbitration has really been tried in court. I remember Disney kind of trying, but it was completely unrelated (e.g. argued that arbitration agreement from Disney+ applied to issues on physical Disney properties).
In order to hold up in court, the contract needs to reasonably benefit both parties instead of only the contract issuer. So there’s a very good chance a court will dismiss the forced arbitration clause, especially if it’s just in a EULA and not a bidirectional contract negotiation.
That said, I tend to avoid services with binding arbitration statements in their EULA, and if I can’t, I avoid companies that force acceptance of EULA changes to continue use of the service.
Well I know someone tried it against Valve and they ended up removing the requirement.
While I understand that, I’m in America. My first priority has to be getting people off of Twitter.
Would I prefer open source, non-profit software? 100%. It’s the smarter and better choice for so many reasons.
But if Bluesky is going to gain critical mass, I’m not going to fight it. I’m having a hard enough time getting people off Twitter. I’ve written the media address of environments I’m familiar with asking them to organize a move, and I mentioned both Bluesky and Mastodon.
Good take. Bluesky is a good stop-gap.
I’ve also been thinking, if Bluesky never federates and enshittifies in a similar way to Twitter (which it will do much faster, just cause it’s a different era), then the Bluesky exodus will really have a solid reason to try to understand why decentralisation is so important…
then the Bluesky exodus will really have a solid reason to try to understand why decentralisation is so important…
or people will have lost the ability to imagine alternative and better places…
…which is where we come in to make sure they don’t forget!
Yep. Already true to a large extent. But it doesn’t take a majority of the world to make the fediverse work. We just need enough for it to become broadly attractive to a critical mass of people. It’s big enough to self-sustain now, so I think it’s just a matter of time until it hits that point.
Arbitration of what? It’s a free service. What money could they possibly owe you?
You’re not thinking evil enough, honestly. Two examples off the top of my head, each being fairly innocent mistakes: If you enter your phone number for 2FA, it’s not going to be public-facing. It’s their responsibility to keep that information private from internal and external threats. Ok, so what if it leaks… right? Oh, it turns out the hacker SIM swapped your phone number for the 2FA, and did a password reset on your account via support chat. Still no big deal, its just social media… Except you’ve been giving updates to all your patreon backers on your project that’s shipping soon. It suddenly vanishes off the internet, replaced with a crypto scheme, and all your supporters just flooded your bank with chargebacks. Your attempts at getting your account back are met with silence and your supporters are now furious. Was any of that your fault? No. You get $100.
Let’s try another example: Bounty programs are used by companies to collect bugs and other possibly exploits so they can be fixed. “Too expensive, nobody will know if there’s a bug anyway.” So the app on Google Play store gets installed by 30 million users with a critical flaw… if a very specific image is opened in it, the phone bricks. All the news sites cover the bug, pushing the image to the front page. You open the app and… Your expensive phone just died. Were you at fault for that? No. You get to join the arbitration group and get an individual settlement of $12.
Think more evil. Don’t stick with the “I have nothing to lose” because you almost always have something to lose. The fact these terms were even thought of and written means you do have a financial investment in the platform.
That’s why 2FA via phone number shouldn’t be a thing
They can break data protection laws and stuff…
Ok…and why would they pay YOU that money? Wouldn’t it be companies and governments they pay?
I’ve gotten settlement money from it before
If a company violates my rights and causes issues for me due to leaking data, then obviously i can sue them for damages.
If the mods or admin do something that causes you injury, such as ignoring requests that will prevent harassment.
…how would them ignoring requests cause injury??? We’re still talking about bluedky, right? The online twitter clone without musk as it’s main selling point?
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Then the person liable to you would be the person doxxing you, not Bluesky themselves unless Bluesky themselves was the party that doxxed you and in that case I don’t think a court would hold you to the arbitration.
We’ve seen Disney try but then withdraw an attempt to enforce arbitration when a lady died from an allergic reaction in their* restaurant and their partner had signed up for Disney+ free trial. It’s not unimaginable a court would hold you to it since we’re already in Upsidedown World where forced arbitrary is legal.
That is an ass pull if I’ve ever heard one.
Let me make sure I understand your comment correctly.
You’re saying that if you post information publically, on a platform whose whole concept is that everything is public, and someone uses information you posted there to identify you, stalk you, break and enter, and then assault you…that it’s the fault of the service you used to post that identifying information?
That’s the arguement being made?
No, I believe the argument they’re making is if someone else posts your private information on BlueSky (think Kiwifarms doxxing gay people and sending that info to Christian hate groups), and BlueSky moderation doesn’t take action against the account posting the info, and then somebody uses that information to find and attack you, then BlueSky is culpable in the attack because they could’ve done something, but didn’t.
A better example, I think, would be the recent issue with known transphobe Jesse Singal and his followers, who came to BlueSky around a month ago and immediately began posting bigotry and false info. When reported to the moderation team, they did nothing about it (he actually got banned by the auto-mod and then manually unbanned during that period, but that’s another story). If he were to do something like my example, posting a trans person’s private information online and telling his followers to harass them, and BlueSky did nothing to remove the posts or his account, then they’d be legally culpable for enabling anything that might happen to you. But under arbitration, you can’t sue them for it.
Ah, THAT explaination at least has legs. All these other responses I’m getting are these abstract “mouse trap if everything goes exactly like this”, sort of explainations.
Although, I still don’t think financial recouperation is the path I’d take. I would be pressing legal charges. Like, criminal acts go to prison type charges.
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You have nothing to hide. Just sign away all your rights.
Nice. Glad to see people leaving xitter en mass.
I feel like we’re going to have a similar issue a couple of years or decades down the line with Bluesky. People would be better off on the Fediverse instead.
People are atleast getting used to the @username@instance thing through bluesky atleast… That would make mass exodus to fediverse in future easier (if that ever happens)
the issue with that is the fediverse isn’t the easiest thing to sign up for. and the fediverse needs explaining pre-sign up for most people.
listen I have both bluesky and mastodon so I get you. but for now, bluesky is at least not the platform of an angry nazi man child. (at least not yet).
No, this time will be different, I swear!
And that’s fine. What the exodus to Bluesky is doing is making it easier for people to stomach switching to similar platforms, so if Bluesky also went to shit, the inertia is much lower for people to abandon it.
1/10th the US population! Fantastic!
Mastodon has around 1 million active users¹ Bluesky has around 3.5 million active users²
Bluesky doesn’t have a decent way to see active user count, but it is likely higher than 3 million
Mastodon retains 10%, Bluesky retains 10% also, but I can’t confirm it
Edit: Using unique likes, it shows about 2 million active users on each day³
Source:
Something similar is going to happen with lemmy if reddit keeps caving in to Elon
Activitypub or gtfo
Time for the fediverse to reflect on this lamentable failure to capture the zeitgeist. The future could have been glorious. Instead we have infighting, defederation, owner class privilege with their delegates (moderators) as the first class citizen. And of course, hiding the structures of power has already begun in the name of harmony, so no, you can’t have frictionless account migration. Don’t step out of line if you don’t want to lose your fediverse relationships and history…
Time for the fediverse to reflect on this lamentable failure to capture the zeitgeist
We haven’t failed, the wise ones among us understand companies like bluesky grow cancerously, and that cancerous growth is neither desirable nor emulatable (especially in pace) in a healthy system.
What… are you talking about?
I agree that defederation is vastly overused, and simple account migration should be a priority.
I tried Mastodon two times in the past. I love the idea of federation and really want it to work. There’s just too much friction though.
First you have to choose an instance. If there isn’t a sensible default preselected when you download an app you already lost almost all non-technical people.
But I’m a technical, motivated individual, so I managed. Next I wanted to follow some creators I know. I couldn’t just look them up, I had to find them on twitter or other places and manually copy their name@instance or whatever into mastodon.
Cool. Now I can press follow and it’ll follow, right? Wrong. I press follow and nothing happens. I find out It’s pending? I’m guessing both instances have to accept federation between them?
Let’s follow some more creators I know. What do you mean I can’t follow someone because their instance is straight up blocked by my instance because their instance mods think everything anime-related is for pedos? So I can’t follow creators from both instances because they don’t like each other? So I need to find an instance which isn’t blocked by anyone, doesn’t block anyone? Or host my own one person instance and hope other instances accept my federation?
At this point you already lost 99.9% of people. I want mastodon to work, but it straight up sucks.
Tried it last night for a hockey game. I still think I’m not using it correctly but people were nice.
There’s no right or wrong way. For it to be fun for an event like that you need to follow lots of people in that space. Like journalist, reporters, beat writers and analysts. However if you don’t want that content in your feed full time you could try searching one of the teams hashtags and use the latest tab to follow along. You can also take all those suggested follows and make a list to pin to your BlueSky front page without following them and just goto that feed during games.
Oh interesting, thanks! I figured out the hashtaga bit but a lot of fun popped up without the hashtaga etc.
I suppose I’ll just keep muddling along and figure something that works for me while trying to be a net positive influence!
Bluesky is like Twitter but with about 1/10th the idiots, and no mechanism that the idiots can elevate their racist, moronic hot takes above other comments.
Bluesky will follow the same enshittification trajectory Twitter did, it is just the beginning of the rollercoaster where the coaster is slowly brought up to the top to be launched… and everyone is exclaiming “wow I haven’t even thrown up yet!” as if that was any indicator of how much they were about to throw up…
I don’t think it will go down the same path as Twitter, since Bluesky is open source and available on Github other devs will have the possibility to improve it or create a better version of it but with the more users joining it might necessary to monetize it to better cover the costs. I would love to see everyone switching to the Fediverse but it’s not very intuitive for the average end user with the instances and the fact that you need to target a user and an instance to follow it
*an incomplete subset of Bluesky is opensource
what do you mean by incomplete subset ? The code is available on Github and can be compiled
The entire appview layer is proprietary in practice and in spirit.
can you please be more specific ? What proprietary parts you found ? Did you read the code ? Again code is open source and anyone can read it and modify it, there is no proprietary, the license used is MIT not another weird license that limit the code from being used for other purposes like commercial stuff
The code isn’t available for the parts that aren’t open source? Just because a component of a system is open source doesn’t mean the entire system can be called open source.
That is a dangerous conflation to make in public discourse about this as it warps the conversation in artificial ways.
Make NO mistake if the entire system was actually open source they would have no way to lucratively monetize bluesky, and that is precisely what they will do.
The CEO of Bluesky has gone on record saying they haven’t ruled out monetizing through forcing ads on a system. Do you not understand that is functionally impossible to force ads on a fully open source system?
how can you be so stunningly naive
Yes but Twitter was fine for well over 10 years so it’s fine. Like I don’t understand this attitude that we can’t enjoy something now because at some point in the future it may theoretically be not as good.
Maybe it will, but for the time being it hasn’t. The experience is so vastly better than Twitter, that it’s a no brainer to jump over.
why are people frothing over Bluesky? this is just Twitter but owned by a different oligarch
They have an addiction to that kind of socials.
Because they learned nothing
No clue. Never found those platforms to be useful, just toxic.
Same here… even when Twitter was not even in the sights of fElon I found it to be super toxic. I signed up because “it was the best way to get the news” and left in about 4 days
Because it isn’t just Twitter. Nobody can buy the network, the same way nobody can buy email.
- Anyone can host a server.
- Anyone can make an app.
- Anyone can make an algorithm.
- Anyone can make a moderation service. Users can freely pick a server, app, algorithm, and moderation service.
Yeah, no, not anybody can host a server. Sure, you can host a PDS, but the AppView still wasn’t open source last time I looked, and hosting a relay requires tens of terabytes of storage, not to mention the bandwidth to keep up.
Meanwhile, people host actual activitypub instances on repurposed routers and their car entertainment system…
Ngl thanks for the detail, I went and had another look so correct me if I’m wrong.
- Anyone can host a open source PDS like the Bluesky PDS.
- Anyone can make an AppView to view these PDSs.
- Someone with many resources needs to host a relay.
- Also it seems that Bluesky is able to gatekeep access to its federation of PDSs on a per AppView basis? The details are a bit confusing.
So if we wanted to undermine Bluesky’s currently - hopefully temporary - centralised state, we would need multiple community modified PDSs, a widely rehosted open source AppView webapp & iOS/Android clients, a very expensive relay that is community controlled via non profit or something, and then we would be federated with each other and the bluesky infrastructure too?
Sounds like a lot of work just to recreate the user-end functionality of ActivityPub :/ Very confused why they felt the need to invent ATProtocol? I have heard some vague praise of it over AP but I think I’m not technical enough to really properly make that comparison. It’s nice that ATProtocol gives you ownership of your data though.
Perhaps Mastodon/ActivityPub-apps need to improve their onboarding process and user experience. Maybe include the custom feeds feature for Bluesky too. Something has to have gone wrong for Mastodon to have failed where Bluesky succeeded.
Yeah, why would I use BlueSky when I could just use my favorite platform named Threads?
Tap for spoiler
Just kidding
