We reached the point (some time ago) where the save icon being a floppy disk makes absolutely no sense to anyone born after a certain time. We could choose a more modern media format and use an icon of that instead, but we would run into the same problem once that media becomes obsolete.
What is a good icon for the function of saving something that can easily be understood by anyone regardless of language or the march of time?
Edit: I know it’s not really an answerable question and is hard but the question is what would you come up with if tasks to design an icon. Given the constraints of the question, what are your best shots at coming up with something that fills the requirements and why do you thing it would work?
A piggy bank
There is no correct icon, the floppy disk is at least popular enough to be used essentially forever
Alternatives would be making an SVG that mocks a HDD, or an open drawer with an arrow pointing in
For long term (1000 years) I think an open drawer is best especially with an arrow. It suggests putting something in, loading can be the inverse
So people used to store stuff in physical space like drawers? You mean if they needed something they had to physically go there and get it out of something else? Man, early humans were crazy.
Almost none of our symbols make sense and are disconnected from their origin. That’s a good thing. Without detachment of the signs from their reference we can’t have abstract thought and language. The letter D comes from an icon for fish. But it went from indexical reference to icon, to symbol. And then we changed its shape over time to what it is today, and some people started using it for the alveolar plosive. The same has happened for every single symbol we recognize and use, alphabet or not. It’s all arbitrary and it doesn’t matter if we don’t use actual floppy disks anymore.
This is all true but given the charge of creating a new icon that would be the “most recognizable” as save to the most people the first time they see it, what would that look like. The question is impossible to answer with a single thing as it’s too vast and everything becomes meaningless eventually. But given everything we know of languages, the brain, how we perceive things, what would be a better icon we could design?
You can’t design a better icon. That’s not how symbolism works. The most recognizable symbol for save is the one we are using now. As designing something new, by default, it would not be recognized by anyone but the designer since use defines meaning. Until it is used it won’t be recognized by anyone.
Edit: like, think of the play icon and its meaning in media control. It was born as an indicator of the direction a reel to reel tape player was moving. It still holds that meaning for digital streaming today despite the virtual extinction of tape players. Its use defines its meaning, detached from its origin and despite the obsolescence of its reference.
Not necessarily. I can see an icon with some randomly-sized vertical lines and think of rain. Or an icon might have a mountain peak silhouhette that generates a random mountain peak. Symbolism doesn’t work in the sense we can’t just design something but I’d argue we could probably come up with something that is at least indicative of saving to people regardless of language. Obviously the floppy fills that for now but if we could go back and drive the adoption of the icon, what icon could we create that would most indicate saving to people regardless of technology.
(I understand there isn’t a correct answer to this, just wanted to read people’s thoughts on ideas)
A friend was a design teacher and he taught me that design uses existing symbolism and iconography. But you can’t control what people will ultimately use your design for. The babadook for example, was a monster intended to cause fear in a horror movie. However, a clerical error by Netflix and an over imaginative tumblr user, turned it into a queer icon that is now widely recognized on internet culture. Of course you can sort of imbue intent and predict use of design to some extent, but humans have an arbitrary side that makes it hard to say something would be a better icon for an abstract concept.
We’ll see the problem with this is symbols are inherently contextual to culture
Maybe something like a document going into a safe? As things are increasingly digital, both of those technologies become somewhat less relevant. On the other hand, one could go with 保存 on a button. Chinese and Japanese speakers will instantly know what it does. Others could learn. At some point, kanji are just slightly more complex squiggles to represent an increasingly non-concrete thing.
Are you going for just updating? If so, I’d leave it alone. Culturally it’s ubiquitous and doesn’t require changing.
If you’re thinking more along the lines of a save version of the whole “how do we ensure future people know nuclear waste resides within” then you’re gonna run into the same problems they do, symbols change meaning over time. But if I had to pick something that may be obvious to most people, my vote is a scribe and a pen. Most cultures have writing, most cultures with writing save information by writing it down. There are problems, obviously, but if you gotta pick one, that’s my vote until I hear a better suggestion.
And for what it’s worth, with the nuclear waste sitch, my vote first the atomic priesthood
Down arrow pointing to a horizontal line.
You mean the scroll lock?
Yeah similar to that.
?
What are you doing when you save something? You’re keeping it in its current state, held in stasis, to be retrieved later. Maybe using freezing imagery (like a snowflake) could get that concept across, and it would retain its meaning over time.
Another way to think of saving is storage - putting something in a convenient location for later access. A safe might be a useful image, but it implies security. Other types of storage devices seem too likely to change with time. Maybe a pocket? If there was a way to graphically represent putting something in your pocket that would be a fairly universal and durable image.
Your second sentence makes me think an equal sign would be appropriate.
How about something like that? Symbolises data to device.
Maybe it’s just me but this looks like we’re putting it somewhere to forget. Like junk lol
that’s an in/outbox for paper documents.
Yeah, I just used what icon was handy. I mean if you were to do a more serious attempt,I’d draw it more like a concrete box, myself. Or more specifically concrete slots that line up with the numbers, driving home the point that it is a more permanent solution.
This is what I was thinking of, but no binary and just a square cardboard box with the flaps open.
Just an arrow pointing into a box.
I think this assumes no knowledge and transcends culture and tech.
How are there so many people ITT who genuinely don’t even understand what OP is asking and are arguing about something else completely that they thought up in their head like whether we should do away with the floppy icon because it confuses people now or if their youngsters know what a floppy is or if they do or if there’s a better icon to us now that can represent saving.
None of those are anything to do with OP really.
What OP is asking is if in 10000 years the next human civilization after our collapse that has no concept of computers and probably no electricity or industry nor potentially any grasp on our language or alphabet stumbles upon a functioning computer from our civilization, how do we tell them which button is the save button, when all shared symbolic context has been lost?
Consider the same question but for radioactive waste, how do we ward off potential future pre-industrial human civilizations from our nuclear waste sites to stop them dying to radiation poisoning for possibly tens of thousands of years until they develop an understanding of radiation and the equipment to measure it? Well, something like this maybe:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_nuclear_waste_warning_messages
Though maybe given this thread, we should instead be considering how to convey very simple abstract questions to the pre-industrial people on lemmy.world instead, especially when it appears they have only a rudimentary, GPT2-esque grasp on language.
This is not a place of honor, no honored dead is interred here.
Now I want to see the original sign.
Thanks!
I am also very perplexed by the responses in this whole thread. These are very basic drills that are also done in design based classes. It’s just a thought experiment.
k
I was gonna fight you because “or if there’s a better icon to us now that can represent saving.” Is a reasonable interpretation of what OP said.
But then I continued to read more comments and wow people just like… Explaining the floppy disk is wild.
A hammer and chisel with a stone slate… some combination of that
I’ve noticed youngsters where I work sometimes no longer know what “saving a document is”, as they only know google doc style sync.
So I’d go with a send button: send to harddrive. Usually represented with an triangle/arrow.
Send/share buttons are already a fucking mess though
I think that’s more of a UX issue than an issue of iconography, though. Could-synched stuff synchs in the background, so there’s just no interaction involved.
I don’t know how far down that road it’ll go, but I wonder if eventually the concept of “checkpointing” in games becomes more frequent than old document saving and that’s how we think about version control going forward.
Anything designed to represent the save action will become obsolete eventually because the nature of saving data changes.
Originally you saved writing by inscribing it on a wax tablet, then paper, then removable disk, then hard disk, then solid state, now the cloud.
I would say the most times less will be pencil on paper as it’s the most basic method of recording.
📝
But that’s already considered to mean an edit action
GTA2 save point.
“Halleluja, another soul saved”!
Spot on 😁
Or just the hard drive by itself. Is a platter drive old fashioned these days?
Also a safe would be a decent choice.
Why do you want to move a piece of paper onto an old style record player?
I mean I’m in my 40s now, but we still have spread sheets, Word documents, and web pages don’t we?
And I think everyone still knows hard drives are at least a thing? I can buy people in their early 30 or under never used a floppy, but we’ve all used some form of hard disk.
Also, I noticed no argument of the safe suggestion, and I hazard a guess many fewer of us have used an actual safe than a hard disk, especially a safe with a big swinging lock, but I think the majority could get the intent of putting something in a safe. Perhaps an open safe with an arrow going in if we want to be grandiose about it? 😉
A safe would make more sense for an encrypted partition or directory
