A pro-Palestinian protest action briefly blocked all traffic on the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco Wednesday morning.

A pro-Palestinian protest action briefly blocked all traffic on the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco Wednesday morning.

Starting at about 7:45 a.m. Protesters stopped cars and stretched banners across the roadway denouncing Israel’s bombing of Rafah in the Gaza Strip and demanding that the U.S. stop arming Israel.

Northbound and southbound traffic on the bridge was at a standstill as of 8 a.m.

  • SquirtleHermit@lemmy.world
    0·
    9 months ago

    Frankly, you are not defending empirical truth, you are trying to have a linguistics debate. That’s not remotely the same thing.

    But even in your linguistics debate, the statement “it’s not by definition a genocide” is not as clear cut as you are trying to make it.

    Some excerpts taken from the (rather extensive) Wikipedia page regarding the Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza:

    Legal definition of genocide: The 1948 Genocide Convention defines genocide as any of five “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”.[18][19] The acts in question include killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group.[18] Genocide is a crime of special intent (“dolus specialis”); it is carried out deliberately, with victims targeted based on real or perceived membership in a protected group.[19]

    Alleged genocidal actions: Since 7 October 2023, the IDF has been accused of the extrajudicial killing of Palestinian unarmed detainees,[48][49] doctors,[50] and workers, making threats of mutilation,[51] death, arson, rape,[52] and torturing Palestinians detained without legal charges.[53][54] It has also been accused of using excessive force against dozens of schools[55] and hospitals,[56] theft,[54] the cruel and unnecessary desecration and mutilation of deceased Palestinians,[50] and making no, or an inadequate distinction between Hamas forces and civilians.[57] During the fighting, Channel 14 kept a count of every Palestinian killed, labelling all Palestinian casualties as terrorists,[58] while Shimon Riklin, a Channel 14 journalist and anchor, publicly advocated Israel committing more war crimes.[58][59]

    So in a lot of ways, it sure looks like a genocide. And it goes beyond just allegations.

    On 26 January 2024, the ICJ issued a preliminary ruling finding that the claims in South Africa’s filing (accusing Israel of genocide) were “plausible”

    Finally, I think this bit sums up it up nicely.

    Russian-American author, Masha Gessen, when asked if what was happening in Gaza was a genocide said, “I think there are some fine distinctions between genocide and ethnic cleansing and I think that there are valid arguments for using both terms”.[167] When pressed further they stated, “it is at the very least ethnic cleansing”.

    So if you are looking to die on the hill of your linguistics debate, you do you. But the actions taking place are unarguably morally wrong.

    • Pratai@lemmy.ca
      0·
      9 months ago

      Their goal is not to eradicate the world of Palestinians and their culture. They could care less of their existence. It’s a territorial war. Period.

      Always has been. You can spin it however you want. But as atrocious as it is- it’s not genocide.

      By the way… “plausible” doesn’t mean…. “Run with it!”

      • ghostdoggtv@lemmy.world
        0·
        9 months ago

        I thought it was Israel defending themselves against a terror attack. Apparently the goal posts have moved.

      • SquirtleHermit@lemmy.world
        0·
        9 months ago

        Netanyahu has made it quite clear that his goal is the end of Palestine as a sovereign state. Quoted in the “Times of Israel” publication as saying:

        “in any future arrangement, or in the absence of an arrangement,” he said, Israel must maintain “security control” of all territory west of the Jordan River — meaning, Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. “That is a vital condition.”

        He acknowledged that this “contradicts the idea of sovereignty [for the Palestinians]."

        Seeing as part of the definition of Genocide is to:

        destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group

        I would argue that falls under the definition as outlined by the 1948 Genocide Convention. Your focus on total eradication of people and culture is only a part of the definition of genocide. Also, they are certainly doing an unnecessary amount of eradication of Palestinians and their culture, regardless of if it is an “expressed intent”.

        Lastly, “plausible” doesn’t mean “just run with it”, but I never said it did. Plausible means “plausible”. As in, your argument that it “definitely isn’t genocide” is directly contradicted by the ICJ ruling. People whose judgement the world put their faith in to make the distinction couldn’t definitively say it wasn’t occurring given the information they were given access to.

        • Pratai@lemmy.ca
          0·
          9 months ago

          I’d imagine he doesn’t care if they leave Palestine , so long as he gets to have it- which means… he doesn’t care if they live or die so long as he get the land, which means……

          IT’S NOT GENOCIDE.

          I’m done arguing this with you.

          • SquirtleHermit@lemmy.world
            0·
            9 months ago

            It looks like you might be done arguing because you can’t quite reconcile your belief that it’s not a genocide with the fact that there’s a clear intention to eradicate Palestine as a nationality, which fits one of the definitions of genocide, right?

              • SquirtleHermit@lemmy.world
                0·
                9 months ago

                Well, technically it’s the definition of Genocide as outlined in the 1948 Genocide Convention, but I am willing to accept their definition.

                Regardless, you can’t think of (or even imagine) a war that wasn’t fought to completely eradicate, in whole or in part, of a group based on a nationality, ethnicity, race or religion?

                • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
                  0·
                  9 months ago

                  I sure can and that’s exactly the point: fighting to end a nation =/= genocide. Genocide = to eradicate a group of people

                  • SquirtleHermit@lemmy.world
                    0·
                    9 months ago

                    Sure, but Israel isn’t simply fighting to “end a nation” as in the nation state and it’s government. They are targeting civilians and refugees, and trying to forcibly end the group identity that is Palestine. Saying that all Palestinians should relocate, and targeting non-combatants indiscriminately, based on nationality, is genocide.

                    Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:

                    (a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2[7]

                    Raz Segal, the program director of genocide studies at Stockton University, concretely says it is a “textbook case of genocide.” Segal believes that Israeli forces are completing three genocidal acts, including, “killing, causing serious bodily harm, and measures calculated to bring about the destruction of the group.” He points to the mass levels of destruction and total siege of basic necessities—like water, food, fuel, and medical supplies—as evidence.

                    He says Israeli leaders expressed “explicit, clear, and direct statements of intent,” pointing to Israeli President Isaac Herzog’s statement during an Oct. 13 press conference. In his statement, Herzog said, “It’s an entire nation that is out there that’s responsible. It’s not true, this rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true,” Herzog said. “They could have risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d’etat.” (Herzog later said that he is not holding the civilians of Gaza responsible for keeping Hamas in political power, when asked to clarify by a journalist at the same press conference.) Segal says that this language conflates all Palestinians as “an enemy population,” which could help prove intent.

                    Edit: Also, after rereading my comments, I can see how I didn’t make the through line clear, and thus why you assumed I simply meant that “wanting to remove a government = genocide”, which it obviously does not. My intent was that the quote from Netanyahu regarding the intent to end Palestine as a sovereign state would show that, combined with my aforementioned comments regarding the large scale destruction and intentional targeting and displacement of civilians, their goal is the complete destruction of the group based on Nationality. That Palestinians would not only have lost the right to self-governance, but would be all killed or scattered throughout the world, absorbed into other cultures, and thus cease to exist.

            • Pratai@lemmy.ca
              0·
              9 months ago

              I’m done arguing because i don’t exercise futility. It’s a pointless debate. I don’t just make up the rules to things so they can fit my agenda because I have no agenda.

              I’ve no dog in that race and therefore have no bias. And having no bias allowed me to see it objectively and without any manufactured emotional outrage.

              It’s not genocide. By definition, or U.N. policy.

              • SquirtleHermit@lemmy.world
                0·
                9 months ago

                I don’t just make up the rules to things so they can fit my agenda

                But that’s exactly what you are doing. I presented the definition of Genocide (as outlined in the 1948 Genocide Convention), I also provided evidence that they are targeting Palestinians based on their Nationality, and that they are completing three genocidal acts, including, “killing, causing serious bodily harm, and measures calculated to bring about the destruction of the group.”

                Though if you need a more express proof than Netanyahu’s statements to show they are committing their atrocities based on Nationality, here is another fun quote from Israeli President Isaac Herzog’s statement during an Oct. 13 press conference. In his statement, Herzog said,

                “It’s an entire nation that is out there that’s responsible. It’s not true, this rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true”

                So let’s just highlight in bold what Isreal has done that checks the genocide defintion boxes:

                Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:

                (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; © Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. — Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2[7]

                You didn’t contest that they were committing large scale atrocities such as “Killing members of the group based on their affiliation”, that they were “Causing serious bodily and mental harm to members of the group”, and that they were “Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part”. Nor did you contest the fact that they were targeting these actions based on national affiliation. So we have agreed that Israel sure has committed alot of the acts that define genocide, but to fit your agenda, you keep just repeating “IT’S NOT GENOCIDE”, as if putting it all in caps makes less boxes be checked.