Year of the Linux Desktop Fediverse!
Side note, DAE find calling them “normies” kinda icky? It’s like straight outta 4chan
The advantages most of us see in the Fediverse (lack of corporate control, low algorithm interference) are seen by most normal users as either of little importance, or actively detrimental. The Fediverse requires you engage with it to cultivate a feed that gives you what you’re interested in. But the people fleeing to Rednote want a strong algorithm that feeds them what they want, and they don’t mind influence games being played by the algorithm in exchange for this convenience.
Personally, I think there’s room in the Fediverse for an app with a “strong algorithm” provided it’s completely open ofc.
My biggest issue with algorithms isn’t the fact they exist, but that they’re proprietary black boxes so no one truly knows how it’s being manipulated
We should be able to select different fully open source algorithms from a drop down menu, and load custom ones from fediversealgorithmmenuwithdescriptions dot org, including “no algorithm”.
I assume that’s like a billion hours of work, but, goals.
“No algorithm” would load nothing at all. Everything is an “algorithm,” including listing all posts in chronological order.
Wanting “no algorithm” is like wanting food with “no chemicals” in it and not realizing that carbs, fats, proteins, etc. are “chemicals.”
But when someone says they want no chemicals in their food, you know exactly what they mean. This is just being a bit pedantic, I think.
Did someone call for me???
Exactly. Every time I see someone post that “akshully, chronological order is also an algorithm” (which I see a lot), it makes me think of the old “what you are calling Linux is akshully GNU/Linux” thing. Please people, let that go.
Because you know perfectly well that when we talk about “algorithms” we’re specifically referring to corporate social media manipulative algorithms designed to increase engagement, NOT a simple sort of posts by date or number of upvotes. mkay?
It’s a “domain expert who interprets ‘algorithm’ as a technical term from their domain of expertise” vs “non-expert who interprets ‘algorithm’ with the meaning popularised by the Media in the last couple of years”.
Both are right.
But when a non-expert uses the term, its quite clear what they mean by it.
Only eating noble gases.
Noble gases are chemicals too, damn it!
The only thing that isn’t “chemicals” is literally just vacuum.
Only a dehydrogen monoxide addict will say shit like that!
I would say freedom, fallacies, and magic are not chemicals.
They have at least little tendency to participate in chemical reactions.
Even a vacuum has random particles coming in and out of existence, it’s not even empty space
When you sort your feed by hot vs top vs new, that’s already what you’re doing kinda.
But the platform has to have the data to support the algorithm, so you can’t just “load in” whatever algorithm you want. Besides, that sounds like a security nightmare for the platform lol
I mean, with the fediscovery project, people can make centralised applications from fediverse data (people who opt in) this makes indexing and other stuff that works better centralised possible.
If I understand correctly, that only works with data publicly available (or at least available to 3rd party instances). But there are going to be metrics that fediverse platforms simply don’t make public or even track.
for example: i dont imagine that peertube (or even loops) makes public who viewed which videos, when, for how long. and it’d be a huge privacy issue if they did. Even tracking things like who-liked-what are the kinds of things that a 3rd party probably shouldn’t be able to just check.
without these kinds of insights, it’d be hard to make a good recommendation algorithm, because you can’t really tell how an individual is interacting with content.
A client could be made on one, that tracks those things, and then suggests videos from that.
I don’t think it could.
The client doesn’t have access to all the videos, it’ll have to query the (distributed???) platform to find matching videos.
And the platform is gonna need to serve up some kind of metadata for the client to track (are hashtags enough???)
And the platform is gonna need to be keeping stats on the videos for the client to match against
And what would that query even look like? A gargantuan weighted map of hashtags? I can’t imagine hashtags alone would be enough.
Remember when Musk took over Twitter and “open sourced” the algorithm, although it was impossible to reconstruct anything from what was given, and contained clear signs of being edited and incriminating details suggesting content categorization and prioritization?
What I really want to see is Facebook’s algorithm, because it seems to just produce a neverending stream of alt-right bullshit.
Fwiw Tiktok apparently just open sourced their algorithm a week or so ago.
I wonder if loops will provide it as an option
Do you have a link? I can’t find it.
I was mistaken, it was not opensourced - there was a whitepaper on a recommendation system from tiktok’s parent company bytedance, and everyone just assumed it was the tiktok recommendation algorithm when it was published.
deleted by creator
Well, its definetely possible on activitypub. Every “app” built on the atprotocol takes data from a relay’s firehose and then indexes it and does all the algorithm stuff. There is a project (https://www.fediscovery.org/) that will let people build centralised apps with fediverse data. Although, I could just make an algorithm that looks for keywords a user may be interested in, in the posts database and show it to them, it just wouldn’t have every post to its disposal.
Hey thanks for the correction - my mistake!
It’s gonna happen in the AT protocol I’m sure.
Recommendation engines aren’t the biggest issue. People will figure out how to fins what they want, and be generally happy with that, if looking is easy enough.
The big issue is that “join the fediverse” is a really, really shitty and incomplete recommendation. It’s like “join the blogosphere!”
And “join Mastodon” or “join Lemmy” is bad, too. It’s like asking them to “join Joomla”.
You need to point people to the specific website they should join, and that website has to already have what they’re looking for. People aren’t interested in building something.
They just want to consume.
You know, if this rednote thing really takes off, I don’t think I can believe the whole “fediverse is too complicated” thing anymore. People are moving to an app that isn’t even fully in English. That’s WAY more complicated than picking a random instance out of a list (or more likely, just going to the one big one). I’m getting to where I think the vast majority of people just click on what’s advertised no matter how stupid it is, and without ads (not people spreading things by word of mouth, I mean actual “ooh, shiny” ads) mainstream uptake of the fediverse will never happen. Good luck outspending the big corps on that.
Might be for the best anyway. The type of people who respond to ads probably aren’t particularly fun to engage with.
Just made an account on Xiaohongshu and saw literally no Chinese during the process other than the logo. The first Chinese I saw were the titles of videos.
This was the first I saw. But by then, my account is already made and I can already see and enjoy content. I don’t think it’s as much of a barrier as you believe it is.
I recommend you to censor your name
Oh shit, thanks for the heads up! But this is not my real name. I got it as a captcha years ago and thought it was funny, so it’s just some random email address I have as a backup. I’ve still removed it for good measure.
They chose the app specifically because its chinese, they still have every other tiktok clone, like clapper (lol), snapchat spotlight, youtube shorts and instagram reels.
Whatever the reason, navigating that is still more complicated than navigating Lemmy or Mastodon
I agree, but thats why they chose it.
It’s mire simple because they have actual designers that design the app to users to use, so it’s not that much difficult to navigate, with all the icons and familiar patterns.
Yeah, it’s amazing the things you can do with UX when your platform takes in enough money that you can support a UI/UX team.
don’t ask where that money came from or why kthx(some oss projects outright decline help from actual designers by the way)
It would be nice if the Fediverse (or some apps like Sync) had a strong algorithm that you can choose to activate if you like, once you install the app.
And could pick from different algorithms, one big barrier to entry for new users is the UX just sucks compared to platforms they’re used to.
Eg. Default lemmy Web UI is TERRIBLE
I kind of like the algorithm idea that Neptune (a potential Tiktok replacement) plans on having.
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT2dbYBKj/
It plans on giving users different sliders, such as:
Following
Friends
Trending
Categories
etc.
https://www.tiktok.com/@theneptuneapp?_t=ZT-8tE7t6KDR5m&_r=1
Or maybe something like Fedialgo?
Or maybe perhaps something like Bluesky’s Algorithmic Custom Feeds, but adapted for Fediverse Social Media?:
https://docs.bsky.app/docs/tutorials/custom-feeds
I actually enjoy not having a strong algorithm here. This way I can spend as little as possible on my only social media app that I use.
Funny enough, that’s also the reason that democracy is always in the brink of collapse.
Don’t get too high and mighty, you’re doom scrolling like everyone else.
I mean, I’ve got definite FOMO, but I generally don’t feel the need to continuously search for new content. If the comms in my feed are quiet, that’s nearly a good thing.
I mean, a software could easily do it they just don’t.
A lot of people are going to rednote as a show of protest:
- these people have had their data mined since they were babies, they’ve been taught by the market since birth that their data isn’t something they should value
- then they’re told that it’s bad that these other people can access their data, with no explanation as to why it’s any different
- while at the same time being told that it’s totally fine for the folks who are already mining your data to sell it to the people who shouldn’t have your data
So they’re basically saying “you’re lying, and your explanation contradicts your previous behavior, so I’m gonna do the exact opposite of what you want”
Again because they don’t actually care about their dataFediverse fanboys when they realise that their obscure and socially complex software isn’t know by many people specially outside of the tech bubble, and that it’s not the same experiences that they will get with known platforms:
The obscurity and social complexity is the whole reason I’m here haha. My hope is that even if/when fedi apps become the standard, we’ll still have ways to curate ourselves into small corners as that’s just way nicer.
That’s why I subscribe not to topics, but to interests. It doesn’t solve the problem but it puts me with more interesting content and like-minded people, hopefully. Then again I don’t want to be in a bias bubble…
known platforms
I seriously doubt that people ‘knew’ about some random app that isn’t even translated all the way.
If the app was elevated as a point of protest, then people only knew about it because it went viral recently.
Lemmy was also briefly elevated during the Reddit exodus.
You should try this new messenger app.
You’re missing the important factor of the cultural zeitgeist
People who flocked to RedNote weren’t just going there for an alternative to TikTok
They were specifically going there because the US government said “you can’t go on the Chinese App!” so they said “Oh yeah? I’m gonna find an even MORE Chinese app to hang out at!”
Then decades of sinophobic propaganda melted. It was amazing to watch.
I think that it was less: let’s find alternatives, than it was fuck you government TikTok isn’t Chinese enough. It was a direct answer to the government telling us which social media apps we were allowed to use. Also, 100% avoidable if they’d passed data protection instead. It really felt like the government enforcing private interests on its citizens.
Americans typically don’t like the government telling us what to do. It’s all fine if Facebook buys all the competition, but it’s another thing when the government makes the competition illegal because they won’t sell to zuck or musk.
Honestly, Redbook was sort of neat. I doubt it has much staying power as it was really just a protest, but it was sort of a historical feeling moment.
I don’t think there are any experiences on the fediverse right now that are comparable to TikTok. Loops is still beta, isn’t it? If Reddit was banned and people clocked to some Chinese forum I could agree with this meme.
Love your avatar. I miss Netscape. Not that I remember it being awesome or anything. Just nostalgia.
Compared to Internet Explorer it certainly was awesome, as I recall.
Yeah, same. I sort of vaguely remember it as a kid. I had this saved on my computer from somewhere and saw it while making my Lemmy account. What’s cool is that it is actually animated on some platforms.
I remember just feeling cool for using something different than everyone else.
Kind of uncomfortable how my other tech choices map onto this logic. Linux, vim, fediverse, … Am I a dickhead?
No, having a liking for things that aren’t mainstream, in itself, doesn’t make you a dickhead.
Being a dickhead makes one a dickhead.
You’re expecting Zoomers and Gen Alpha irreversibly addicted to short-form video content, which has resulted in an attention span that doesn’t extend past 30 seconds, to READ?
I find this mentality disgusting. “Young people bad!”
(Not all of us, please. I’m 18 - and I love to read - and that’s how I’m even a media and middleware loving nerdy programmer, and that’s how I’m here!!! I’m not even from a developed nation…)
(…I’ve been recommended by YouTube, videos of gen-alpha peeps talking about and using GNU-Linux OSs passionately, even!)
No, not all of you! Or any other group, for that matter. Although I could certainly be wrong, I don’t think the comment is a blanket statement regarding the whole of the two generations, but rather just the portion of the demographic specifically mentioned, which certainly does exist.
Many people older than those two specific generations don’t fit into the “younger generations dumb!” trope that gets highlighted by another commonly referenced subset, so I’d suggest not using that group as a measurement for all older generations. I hope that makes sense.
Ignorant people have a tendency to be loud to compensate for their ignorance, and shouldn’t be used to define those with more nuance.
Only on Lemmy will I ever find such kind words time-and-time-again. Everybody is so truly dedicated to their morals and… just chill. Just nerds hanging out somewhere truly calm!..
Long-live Lemm-Lemm, peeps, long-live Lemm-Lemm!
My kids use a plethora of short-form video apps, and they also read novels, in addition to hobbies like cooking, knitting, crocheting, mechanical work, etc.
Maybe it’s just your kids.
Thanks for encouraging your kids to have diverse interests and hobbies instead of letting a glowing screen raise them. I don’t have children but if I did I would hope to achieve the same for them.
There are plenty of kids who aren’t interested at all in the activities yours are.
Maybe your kids are the exception.
You know what, I shouldn’t comment before I eat breakfast. You’re fine, I hope you have a very nice day.
Ok boomer
Your comment is another proof that Lemmy/Fediverse is lacking young people
More or less is proving my point no?
No, it just shows a lack of understanding and is very unwelcoming.
Unfortunately, Fediverse apps still have a lot of UX issues compared to their mainstream alternatives. Those will need to be smoothed over for mainstream adoption to take root.
They’re attractive to the tech inclined who are comfortable working around what, to them, is minor clunkiness. Mainstream users have shorter attention spans and are more likely to move on when there’s friction.
Far as the meme is concerned, the only Fediverse equivalent is Loops which is still in closed beta.
UX issues
Easiest way to sum up Facebook
Not with their onboarding.
(Also, familiarity is a kind of UX lubricant, all on its own)
Except Voyager app (or webapp) that shits ready for the masses
Feels 100% like the Apollo app for redit, plus blocked features of Apollo are free in voyager
Agreed, the Voyager app for lemmy is the GOAT.
I don’t know, though. I’m someone who gave up on Linux Mint because I just couldn’t get it to work properly. I wouldn’t say I’m tech inclined. I used a button phone until 2022. I only got a smartphone because my sim stopped working with my Nokia. The only issue I had with Lemmy was the sign up (it was during the reddit exodus so the sign ups weren’t going through, but I’m glad cos I nearly joined ml).
Mastodon was easy as heck to join. I got a friend to sign up, no issues, and he has no idea what the fediverse even is.
Have you seen what acquiring lots of mainstream users does to a platform?
It allows it to have a large range of content covering a variety of interests?
Gotta second this. Especially if the growth is sudden. It’s very difficult to integrate newer users into the existing culture.
There are merits to being a smaller community.
That’s what I love about the fediverse. Sure, the huge instances will struggle to maintain their identity, but new instances can be spun up for approx $15/mo USD. Pass the hat around to 100 people and you can easily cover that.
Also instances do not have to please everyone, and they don’t have to push ads, or worry about being a friendly corp playground, so they can just tell people who don’t fit the vibe to fuck right off.
You mean they signed up for an app that actually works and generates a feed for you vs one that doesn’t do either of those things?
No, I think they mean “Well, fuck. The thing I liked is being taken away, and here’s where everyone else is going, so I should do that, too.”
That’s just my interpretation, though.
Sadly, yes
exactly
Even worse; they flood the internet with „china actually kinda based“ posts. Orientalism is back and nothing changed
In art history, literature and cultural studies, Orientalism is the imitation or depiction of aspects of the Eastern world (or “Orient”) by writers, designers, and artists from the Western world. Orientalist painting, particularly of the Middle East,[1] was one of the many specialties of 19th-century academic art, and Western literature was influenced by a similar interest in Oriental themes.
Critical studies
Edward Said
In his book Orientalism (1978), cultural critic Edward Said redefines the term Orientalism to describe a pervasive Western tradition—academic and artistic—of prejudiced outsider-interpretations of the Eastern world, which was shaped by the cultural attitudes of European imperialism in the 18th and 19th centuries.[20] The thesis of Orientalism develops Antonio Gramsci’s theory of cultural hegemony, and Michel Foucault’s theorisation of discourse (the knowledge-power relation) to criticise the scholarly tradition of Oriental studies. Said criticised contemporary scholars who perpetuated the tradition of outsider-interpretation of Arabo-Islamic cultures, especially Bernard Lewis and Fouad Ajami.[21][22] Furthermore, Said said that “The idea of representation is a theatrical one: the Orient is the stage on which the whole East is confined”,[23] and that the subject of learned Orientalists “is not so much the East itself as the East made known, and therefore less fearsome, to the Western reading public”.[24]
In the academy, the book Orientalism (1978) became a foundational text of post-colonial cultural studies.[22] The analyses in Said’s works are of Orientalism in European literature, especially French literature, and do not analyse visual art and Orientalist painting. In that vein, the art historian Linda Nochlin applied Said’s methods of critical analysis to art, “with uneven results”.[25] Other scholars see Orientalist paintings as depicting a myth and a fantasy that did not often correlate with reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism
Yeah i dont think that people saying “China is kinda based” are trying to appropriate chinese culture from the perspective of a culturally and racially superior western hegemonial empire. Quite to the contrary actually.
I swear some people think Westerners expressing any interest in anything Asian at all ever, or thinking an Asian country does something better than their own, is orientalism.
Culturally and racially superior?
The self impression of the imperial empires at the time. The kind of thinking that justified genocides, slavery and robbery with “but we bring them culture”
In terms of ethics and culture i would say most places in the world to have been far better developed than European imperialists.
power users/businesses: “you can’t go VIRAL on mastodon”
Regular Users: “yOu HaVe To PiCk A sErVeR???”
Guess they’re China’s problem now.
Not until they move there
I assure you, people can be a problem from afar.
Red note just added a feature that lets you translate any comment to English (or presumably the local language of your phone number) . Online reviews and Airbnb have done this for a long time. It’s a simple yet amazing feature, one that will really remove barriers to appreciating different cultures. I would love to have it here so that everyone can speak their native tongue and others could appreciate it. I always want to know what the French and German communities are up to (those are the most common other languages I see).
Browser plugins can do that.
Great point
Best thing that happened recently. Wonderful wonderful chaos, when the best plans of authoritarian politicians go awry. And I mean both Chinese and American politicians.
I don’t see how this is authoritarian, Bytedance’s bad intentions are clear. They could make money from selling the app, keep making money from it in a stock sale but yet they’d rather have 0 dollars than relinquish control of their brainrot engine. It’s clear that the CCP values it more as a cultural weapon than as a product.
Why sell it, when they can just give trump a paycheck under the table to keep it going?
I swear on the graves of my ancestors, they script this shit to keep everyone guessing at what the real explanation is. Everyone finds a way to fit it into their own understanding of how the world works. Same thing with the ceasefire agreement. Democrats understand it one way, Republicans understand it another way, outsiders understand it a third (or fourth or fifth), more skeptical way.
Nobody would want to take a shitty deal, and since your comment was posted it’s back online in the US. You sound like you don’t understand how business works and are twisting facts to fit your understanding of the situation.
A forced sale guarantees ByteDance gets a fire sale price. If there’s any way forward that allows them to sell not-under-duress, there’s a chance for far more upside.
That works even for pure economics game theory, aside from wanting to continue in what they built on principle/commitment/interest in the project.
Would Zuck give up Facebook for the right price? Would he give it up for a highly discounted price of a rush sale?
Yes he would if the option is making 0 dollars. Which is the option Bytedance faces, losing one of their biggest most profitable markets when they could get a big bag or do a stock sale and continue to profit from its growth.
Also I’d like to remind you, the US is not the only country looking to ban TikTok, other western countries are eyeing it as well.
For me their malicious intentions are transparent. Hell this bill passed with full bipartisan support after congress saw the intel acquired by the alphabet agencies proving as much. When was the last that happened?
But that’s clearly not the only option. They assumed the public backlash would be in their favor and it was. Now they get to keep on making money, which is the best outcome for them.
They still have to sell.
I agree. Although the method of resolution could vary widely, depending on the party in power, if the US masses keep jumping from foreign platform to foreign platform.
