I’m still confused how he could have been dumb enough to think, let alone imply, let alone say out loud, that Republicans want to reign in big tech, when they so transparently want to capture it and make it an even worse version of itself. It’s not that everything they do is a cynical power grab, it’s that everything they do is a blatant cynical power grab, and being in the privacy business without having a perfectly clear understanding of that feels equivalent to not knowing what a VPN is.
His statement here is great, and I support it whole-heartedly and unabashedly. It just feels almost…I don’t know, unrelated somehow? Even though ostensibly it isn’t.
If an employee did this and there was this much backlash that said employee would be promptly fired…
I’m not sure about that. There are a lot of right wingers who also use proton (ya know, like the right wing “libertarian” tech-bro types). If they remove Andy from the board, there no doubt Proton is getting labeled as “woke”, they lose either way. Honestly, making political comments in the first place, is just a no-win scenario for a privacy-focused mission, which wasn’t even that left-right partisan to begin with. He should have just STFU, and everything would be fine.
In the US maybe, in the EU? Only if you want to get sued and then forced to re-hire them.
He isn’t an employee tho, he’s a member of a board of trustees of the non-profit organization who owns Proton AG. The other board members could say that he’s veering off-couse from the mission of the non-profit and remove him. (But then this move could also angers the right-wing “libertarian” tech-bro types of people that use Proton. So this political debacle was gonna fuck up the trust in Proton either way, Andy should’ve just STFU to begin with.)
proton is cia
proton is ciait’s modern crypto AG
So, we just believe that Proton, being buddy-buddy with Trump, isn’t going to turn around, and stab us in the backs?
Call me “skeptical”.
Maybe I missed something, but I haven’t seen anything to indicate that Andy/Proton likes Trump?
They said they agreed with one decision the republican party made, and pointed out how the democrats have been prioritising corporate interests.But what do I know, I’m not American, so I’m not incapable of understanding nuance like most Americans on the internet seem to be.
Andy Yen might be a CERN scientist, but he’s conpletely ignorant of US politics. I think hes just spewing his uneducatedbpolitical opinions, not necessary being pro-trump. It’s kinda concerning tho, I don’t really like a privacy service being run by an idiot (on the topic of politics, at least), not gonna switch overnight, but definitly start looking into alternatives in case he or the board goes full elon mode.
“Here at Proton, we believe that all life is sacred, thats why we gave the IP addresses of pregnant teens who are planning to get an abortion”
(even compiling the user client yourself won’t protect against IP logging, also, external emails arrive at proton servers in plain text)
a post from last year from my personal X account suddenly became a topic of discussion here on Reddit.
You mean last month right.
Yeah, last year, 2024. Stupid way of intentionally phrasing it.
this is the most “i think my userbase are idiots” statement anybody could make. like do you think we dont know how time works andy? fuck you
Yeah, I pay for Proton to try it out. I was liking it but this guy bending the knee to someone like trump is a huge red flag. I won’t be renewing my subscription!
Literally none of this matters and its all just noise. American politics and Americans themselves are insane.
In the first comment after the second Proton toot, some queer woman complains about something related to the killing of people that are non-binary.
!Man, I love Mastodon.!<
Words are nothing, Andy should step away from proton.
are you basing this on previous words he used ?
Touché
Thank you for the chuckle! lol
It’s funny how people completely lost their minds when they could see a potential connection between what he said and some political side while those same people are perfectly fine with ignoring what’s really wrong with Proton and its marketing - even though it all goes against their core beliefs of “privacy” “security” “open-source” etc.
What is wrong Proton and their marketing?
Don’t feed the trolls. This is an obvious attempt to divert the conversation.
It’s always interesting when someone claims something that goes against the norm on the internet, they might know something that I do not. That was not the case today, unfortunately.
It’s a tricky to maintain balance between openness to opposing views while avoiding susceptibility to disingenuous “just asking questions” diversion.
Any e-mail service that doesn’t provide standard IMAP/SMTP directly to their servers and uses custom protocols is yet another attempt at vendor lock-in and nobody should use it.
What Proton is doing is pushing for vendor lock-in at any possible point so you’re stuck with what they deem acceptable because it’s easier for them to build a service this way and makes more sense from a business / customer retention perspective. Proton is doing to e-mail about the same that WhatsApp and Messenger did to messaging - instead of just using an open protocol like XMPP they opted for their closed thing in order to lock people into their apps. People in this community seem to be okay with this just because they sell the “privacy” cool-aid.
People complain when others use Google or Microsoft for e-mail around here, but at least in those providers you can access your e-mail through standard protocols. How ironic it is to see privacy / freedom die hard fans suddenly going for a company that is far less open than the big providers… just because of marketing. :)
Proton is just a company that wants profits and found out there was a niche of people who would buy into everything that they label as “encryption” and “privacy” no matter what the cost. They’ve learnt how to weaponize “privacy” to push more and more vendor lock-in. Not even Apple does this bullshit.
Now, I can see anyone commenting “oh but they have to it because of security” - no they don’t. That’s bullshit.
Any generic IMAP/SMPT provider + Thunderbird + PGP will provide the same level of security that Proton does - that is assuming they didn’t mess their client-side encryption/decryption or key storage in some way. PGP makes sure all your e-mail content is encrypted and that’s it, doesn’t matter if it’s done by Thunderbird and the e-mails are stored in Gmail OR if it’s done by the Proton bridge and the e-mails are on their servers, the same PGP tech the only difference is the client. So, no, there isn’t the reason to do it the way they do it besides vendor lock-in.
Any generic IMAP/SMPT provider + Thunderbird + PGP will provide the same level of security that Proton does - that is assuming they didn’t mess their client-side encryption/decryption or key storage in some way.
And isn’t that the point? I don’t have time nor do I want to learn about PGP and how to encrypt email. Someone sells that service, great. And it is not like I cannot send normal emails to anyone else. They are using the same standard, not some made up version of SMTP (when sending to other servers, I assume any email from client A to client B both being Proton customer never leave their server, so no need for a new protocol).
Proton is doing to e-mail about the same that WhatsApp and Messenger did to messaging - instead of just using an open protocol like XMPP they opted for their closed thing in order to lock people into their apps
Proton themself provides a way to export emails in a decrypted format. It is even cross platform. https://proton.me/support/proton-mail-export-tool And all they do is open source, here is the code for their mail server: https://proton.me/support/proton-mail-export-tool. They seem to be using ordinary standards, but what do I know?
I cannot agree with you and I do not think your arguments holds, I would even go as far as to say that they are flawed (example being claiming “closed thing” while being fully open source using open standards). It seems to me that they have something that people are willing to pay money for. You are not one of them (nor am I).
I don’t personally use them as an email provider because of the limit on how many domains they allow as a standard.
I want to learn about PGP and how to encrypt email. Someone sells that service, great. And it is not like I cannot send normal emails to anyone else.
I don’t disagree with you, I believe it as well. PGP is it stands is cumbersome.
The thing is that could’ve still implemented a easy-to-use, “just login and send email” type of web client and abstracted the user from the PGP complexities while still delivering everything over IMAP/SMTP.
They are using the same standard, not some made up version of SMTP (when sending to other servers, I assume any email from client A to client B both being Proton customer never leave their server, so no need for a new protocol).
You assume correctly, but when your mail client is trying to send an email instead of using SMTP to submit to their server, you’re using a proprietary API in a proprietary format and the same goes for receiving email.
This is well documented and to prove it further if you want to configure Proton in a generic mail client like Thunderbird then you’re required to install a “birdge”, a piece of software that essentially simulates a local IMAP and SMPT server (that Thunderbird communicates with) and then will convert those requests into requests their proprietary API understands. There are various issues with this approach the most obvious one is that it is an extra step, there’s also the issue that in iOS for eg. you’re forced to use their mail app because you can’t run the bridge there.
The bridge is an afterthought to support generic email clients and generic protocols, only works how and where they say it should work and may be taken away at any point.
while being fully open source using open standards
Delivering your data over proprietary APIs doesn’t count as “open standards” - sorry.
https://proton.me/support/android
We don’t currently integrate Proton Mail with third-party email clients on Android. Third-party email clients for Android are not capable of the encryption and decryption processes Proton Mail performs.
https://proton.me/support/ios-iphone
Third-party email clients for iOS are not capable of the encryption and decryption processes Proton Mail performs to keep your data safe
They do lock you in on handheld devices but that seems to be a consequence of the fact that they are storing all emails encrypted on the server. After reading this link (“[…]Since IMAP can’t decrypt your emails[…]”), I agree that they are just implementing PGP with an extra steps and creating an unneeded layer (the bridge).
The reason I would not compare it to XMPP is because they are still using SMTP. It is when they stop using SMTP or force others to use something else that I would be very worried.
They do lock you in on handheld devices but that seems to be a consequence of the fact that they are storing all emails encrypted on the server. After reading this link (“[…]Since IMAP can’t decrypt your emails[…]”), I agree that they are just implementing PGP with an extra steps and creating an unneeded layer (the bridge).
Yes, that’s precisely the problem there. You can use PGP with any generic IMAP provider and that will work just fine with handheld devices. There are multiple mail clientes capable of doing and all your mail is still encrypted on the server. Proton just made an alternative implementation that forces you into proprietary systems because it’s more convenient for them.
Those kinds of setups with servers encrypting your mail and still delivering over IMAP are fairly easy to implement, here’s an example. They simply decided to go all proprietary.
The reason I would not compare it to XMPP is because they are still using SMTP. It is when they stop using SMTP or force others to use something e
On a generic mail system SMTP is used in two places: 1) from your mail client to your provider and 2) between your provider and other providers. Proton is NOT using SMPT for the first step, making it non-standard and much more closed.
Folks, don’t take this obvious bait.
a hobbyist after mine own heart
I understand your concerns of vendor lock-in. The fear is that it could avoid people leaving the service in the future. However, do you know that I use a generic email client that, through IMAP, contains a Proton account?
Sure, you’re using a bridge they develop and they can away or break at any point. It’s not the best ideal. Why support a company that is actively trying to turn open protocols into more closed stuff? Makes no sense. That type of non-sense is what got us into the situation we’ve now with WhatsApp and other messengers.
I understand the fear of the bridge being burned down. I also see how that would make Proton like WhatsApp, which has its own protocol and locks its users in. Would it be inaccurate to say that your fear is that Proton pulls an “Embrace, Extend, Extinguish” move?
In any case, it’s worthwhile looking at your claims. You mention that Proton is “actively trying to turn open protocols into more closed stuff”.
- Why can I use PGP as the encryption protocol in Proton Mail? Is that a closed protocol?
- Why could I download an archive of all of my emails last December both through IMAP and through MBOX? Are those two “closed stuff”? In fact, I could’ve downloaded my archive as EML; is that a closed protocol?
- Why could I download a copy of my contacts as VCF? Is that a closed protocol?
- Why can I export my Proton Pass passwords as JSON or CSV? Are those closed protocols?
- Is it really tenable to argue that Proton is pulling an “Embrace, Extend, Extinguish” move when they support PGP, IMAP, SMTP, MBOX, EML, VCF, JSON, and CSV?
You could argue that it’s simply a matter of time until they pull the rug and close their protocols. Let’s elide the whole discussion regarding the probability of the rug pull happening and instead focus on the present reality: as of December 2024, I could download an archive of everything I have on Proton without a hitch. They do not have the whole Meta thing of “Please give us four working days for us to create an archive of your data”. At least that wasn’t my experience. I could download an archive quickly.
- If users have the capability of downloading open protocol archives of everything they have on Proton, are they really stopping them from going elsewhere?
Would it be inaccurate to say that your fear is that Proton pulls an “Embrace, Extend, Extinguish” move?
No, it isn’t. But they never “embraced” as there was never direct IMAP to their servers, instead it’s a proprietary API serving data in a proprietary format.
I also see how that would make Proton like WhatsApp, which has its own protocol and locks its users in.
The problem isn’t that taking down the bridge would make Proton like WhatsApp. It’s the other way around, when they decided to build their internals with proprietary protocols and solutions instead eg. IMAP+SMTP they became the WhatsApp. Those things shouldn’t be addons or an afterthought, they should be bult into the core.
This clearly shows that making open solutions ranks very low their company and engineering priority list. If it was at the top they would’ve built it around IMAP instead.
I could download an archive of everything I have on Proton without a hitch.
Yes you can, but the data will come in more property formats hard to upload to anywhere else - at least for some of the data. They’ve improved this situation but it’s still less than ideal. In the beginning they would export contacts and calendars in some JSON format, I see they moved to vCard and iCal now.
I’m personally satisfied with the statement, position and reflection on the issue.
It was a fuck-up to publicly respond to donaldtrump in what could be seen as an endorsement. This was acknowledged and remedied.
The no politics stance is probably unavoidable, as mentioned but they should never focus on political parties, but on defending the values, this is what is clarified and that’s best. We should accept to support a bill strengthening privacy even if it may come from a political party we generally do not support. Denying our support to such a bill would not strengthen the core value we defend. And as individuals we may still criticize all other activities of such a political party if we disagree with others of their activities.
As a community, I hope we can come together, and resist the temptation of purity tests, and acknowledge that we are all fighting for the same cause, no matter our perspective on other issues. We need the support of everyone.
we are all fighting for the same cause
Catering to the “Libertarian” neo-Nazi crowd so they buy your product vs wanting to defend minorities against these sort of people is not the same cause
You’re confusing proton with our stance as a community which cares about privacy.
As a community the question is, will we shun anyone who cares about furthering our rights to privacy, because they have other stances on other issues?
Doing so is only isolating us and prevents us from making our issues heard and gathering more support across the political spectrum.
You can fight alongside someone you don’t agree with on other topics. It is not an endorsement for all they stand for.
will we shun anyone who cares about furthering our rights to privacy, because they have other stances on other issues?
The Reich Wing doesn’t want to further your rights to privacy. Their “other stances” are that some humans are sub-human, and deserve to be extinct.
So, yes, you shun the people who think some humans are sub-human.
Perhaps I need to review my thoughts and either see how I really feel about this topic or find another way to express them.
Either way, you are making a compelling argument and I am not in disagreement.
I don’t value privacy for the sake of privacy, I value it because it’s useful for defending against capitalists and fascists who want an unequal society that commits genocides and incarcerates people for immutable characteristics. Fascists don’t value privacy for the sake of privacy either, for them it’s a tool to further their goals of creating the worst society possible. It comes down to a left vs right issue, I picked one side, and Proton picked to promote the other.
This comment is not the original. He changed it.
They seem to be two separate things. One is a comment, the other is a post.
Either way, if he believes this:
Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.
he’s fucking dumb as a hammer
Removed by mod
When’s the last time the gop did something to prevent an abuse of any kind?
Removed by mod
The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau?
This article goes into some details that I’ll just recklessly post a big section of here:
Then, after he won the election, Biden committed to the cause like no other president had in modern times. He appointed one of the movement’s brightest and most aggressive reformers, Lina Khan, to run the FTC, as well as other fierce critics of corporate concentration in key posts, including Jonathan Kanter, who took over the antitrust division of the DOJ, and Tim Wu, who became a key economic adviser inside the White House. Six months after taking office, Biden issued a whole-of-government executive order that called on 17 different government agencies to take 72 actions to foster competition and protect consumers against monopolies. As a result, agencies like the FTC, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and the Food and Drug Administration have cracked down on public scourges like price gouging, noncompete contracts, and banking-related junk fees, and created new rules to make consolidated industries like the hearing aid market more competitive.
Under Kanter and Khan, the DOJ and FTC have also filed far more ambitious antitrust investigations than any administration in decades. Last summer, an investigation into several food production conglomerates over wage suppression and collusion resulted in an $85 million settlement, one of several successful DOJ investigations into no-poach and wage-fixing schemes across the economy. In December, the FTC successfully blocked the medical data firm IQVIA’s attempt to monopolize the business of advertising to doctors through the purchase of an ad tech company called DeepIntent. And in January, a judge sided with the DOJ in its suit against a JetBlue-Spirit merger, the first successful prosecution of an airline merger in 40 years.
The effect of a more aggressive posture from regulators goes beyond favorable court rulings: Under the threat of litigation, Amazon, Lockheed Martin, Berkshire Hathaway, and the chipmaker Nvidia were some of the companies to back off multibillion-dollar acquisitions of smaller firms. Biden’s regulators filed a record 50 antitrust enforcement actions last year, and mergers dropped to a 10-year low.
These actions don’t get media attention because the media treats the government like some reality TV bullshit
Yeah because Trump will run it like musk runs Twitter. Bezos lost a huge contract last time he refused to bend the knee to Trump.
Yep, I especially appreciate the lack of apologies. An easy cop out would be to say he’s sorry but what would he be sorry for when he didn’t say anything wrong? This is a great response, and the only possible one. And still people will call it damage control.
His main point is outright wrong though. Republicans are not better at anti-trust, they’re the big money. Thinking Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos will protect small tech companies is laughable.
We should accept to support a bill strengthening privacy even if it may come from a political party we generally do not support.
Nobody on the left, afaik, rejects bills out of hand, purely because of which party promulgates it… The problem is, while the American Reich talks a lot about worker’s issues, the bills they propose are just oligarch hand outs, cloaked in socialist or populist ideas. ie, The PATRIOT Act was the least patriotic bill ever put forth, but NOBODY was allowed to be unPATRIOTic and vote against it. The left, opposed it. Same with the 1993 Crime Bill, put forth by Dems… Can’t be “anti-crime” now can we?
Trouble is Andy, we now know what you privately think and all the follow up statements in the world can’t put that genie back in the bottle.
Proton is an org that exists in an industry whose customers do not trust easily. Publicly aligning with someone utterly untrustable, either as an individual or as a board, has tainted Proton and adversely affected peoples ability to trust. How can we ever know when Proton will find it acceptable again to respond positively to a Trumpian decision or how it might affect our privacy?
Literal thought policing (“what you privately think”) and quasi-religious purity logic (“has tainted Proton”). This nicely reveals the kind of busybodying inquisitorial mindset that keeps losing elections for US progressives and thus landing the rest of the world with Trump.
There’s an easy solution to the pseudo-problem you raise: judge Proton by its actions rather than the (utterly commonplace) opinions of one of its directors.
“Thought policing” is when you coerce someone to change their thoughts against their will. It is not boycotting a service because one does not agree with the service owner’s thoughts. That is not thought policing. That is a purely voluntary transaction on both sides, and that is one’s right as a consumer of said service. He is not entitled to customers.
It’s not thought policing. Proton, a company all about privacy, is literally nothing without the trust of its user base. Aligning with someone who is not trustworthy by making a statement that makes no sense (literally saying Trump’s administration will be anti-big tech while it’s been gaining shit tons of support from the Tech Titans Musk, Bezos, and Zuck) completely debases that trust. Additionally it’s not thought policing because companies are not people and cannot think.
Even if it was thought policing, in line with the Social Contract of Tolerance, there is no room to tolerate, let alone vocally support, fascists.
Literal thought policing (“what you privately think”)
Your private thoughts, nobody cares about. He didn’t have a “private thought” exposed, he literally posted his thought publicly.
THATs the issue, and people can choose to disassociate with you, if you publicly ruminate how you’re going to work hand-in-hand with a fascist state.
judge Proton by its actions rather than the (utterly commonplace) opinions of one of its directors.
And, this is what we are doing. A CEO speaks for the organization, and telegraphs it’s actions. And his actions are gross.
If the org wants to fix this, they need to fire him. Because otherwise, his opinion is the opinion of the organization.
Literal thought policing (“what you privately think”)
Are you suggesting that a statement that he made is not what he thinks?
quasi-religious purity logic (“has tainted Proton”)
lol, sorry you’re incapable of processing descriptive language :) I’ll rephrase it to ‘has negatively affected Proton’s image in the eyes of some’.
This nicely reveals the kind of busybodying inquisitorial mindset that keeps losing elections for US progressives and thus landing the rest of the world with Trump.
Neither I, nor Proton, are American so its difficult to see how my opinion keeps landing the world with Trump.
hey i remember you from yesterday’s thread, where you called the official proton’s account doubling down “significant if true” and still haven’t changed your tune
They walked it back and apologized.
Hey bud, when you blurt out what you think “privately”, it’s no longer private, and people not liking what was said publicly isn’t “thought policing”.
Secondly, Protons actions include supporting this wackjob’s “private” thoughts.. Even by your asinine rubric, they’re allowed to be judged on that.
I love user notes; this one has ‘fascist centrist’ attached, and lo and behold.
I was unaware this feature existed, how do you set this?
I can do it in the Boost for Lemmy app. I don’t know if you can do it via the web interface.
To be honest, many of not most CEOs probably privately think that way because it’s advantageous to their business. It’s a product of how the government is owned by the corporations. We all hate it but it’s simply The current state of affairs. It’s literally his job not to let it out into public that he feels that way.
The lines between fact (…) and opinion can be blurry at times
Are they though?
Andy Yen, perched on ivory tower: “Why yes, they are a bit blurry up here.”
Fact: People make statements on social media they later regret.
Given the context, what is your opinion of that fact? Untimely? Biased? It’s still true. Facts are facts
Honestly all that noise was coming from Americans anyway, not a big deal They’re drama-queens. Never take Americans seriously on politics & economy (& also healthcare)
Am American. Can confirm that we are hyper reactionary. I read the tweet and shrugged it off, and rolled my eyes at the people claiming that Proton was now “dead” to them for bending the knee to Trump and were seeking out alternatives.
All of our American healthcare horror stories are true. Never take medical systems advice from us; our system is so evil and broken that our only possible recourse is “deposing” CEOs.
You are one of those exceptional ones
Full context here for everyone.
Personally, that answer does not seem nearly enough and I believe he should stand down if he truly cared about the Proton project as a whole.
Stepping down would be a step in the right direction.
👆
Why does his username have “88” in binary 🧐
The number 8 is lucky to Chinese people. Source: I am Chinese
Is it normal to double it up?
Yes, doubling characters or numbers is common in Chinese to insist on the item.
At weddings, you will see lots of double happiness characters for example.
“Everybody” is literally the character for people that is repeated, so “yan yan”.
He might be born on 1988, although I could not verify this. He started his PhD on 2009, that’d make him 21 at that time, which is not unusual
He replied to a comment on reddit that it’s his birth year.
https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i2nz9v/on_politics_and_proton_a_message_from_andy/m7g9jo0/?context=10000
Bruh, just “Andy1988” would’ve been a better username 🤦♂️
21 is quite young for a doctorate degree. Most people only have a bachelor’s degree by 22.
Not that unusual IMO, lots of people start their PhD directly after completing their Bachelor’s. If they weren’t born born in the first half of the year then they’ll have completed their BS by 21 and start the PhD either at 21 or 22.
A PhD is a mutli-year committment, usually right about 4 years before you’re ready to argue your dissertation.
Like, a PhD program is basically 1/3 doing your research, 1/3 being a TA, and 1/3 being an RA.
They’re saying he could have started his PhD at 21, not finished it at 21. That age checks out if he was born in 1988.
Bah, I totes misread that, yeah.
88 was my favorite number for a long time until I found out that Nazis were using it. Bummer. I’m weirdly still sad about it.
I can’t even tell you why it was my favorite number. I think as a kid, I always heard people pick 7 and I just wanted to be different so I leaned into 8s. Idk.
Now, I struggles because I like 8s but I don’t want to be a Nazi. F’ing Nazis ruin everything.
Guess I could just like 8 or 888, haha.
Because of fucking course it does. 🤦♂️😮💨
