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Mastodon may or may not be good (I don’t use it), but the fact that it segments off users into different groups means it will never be a twitter replacement. The fact that twitter is essentially “public” and all sorts of people from different areas interact was basically the whole point of it.
Bluesky seems pretty nice so far and it has real momentum. Mastodon seems more along the lines of what Google+ turned into.
Mastodon doesn’t silo its users, that’s what federation is for. Everything you post on the public timeline is essentially public for everyone that’s on a federated instance that hasn’t gotten blocked.
I would argue siloing is easier on bluesky - block list manager drama can definitely have a similar effect to user admin drama. The thing mastodon does poorly is discovery. The fed and local feeds are nonsense on Masto. Imo it should be replaced with local admin/user curated topical feeds and top cross server topical feeds.
Mastodon requires far more effort to create a new feed than bluesky, and that’s the major problem.
I’m just dreading the inevitable monetization. These spaces are fun in their alpha state. But it’s just a matter of time before there’s a “Let AI help you spam Shrimp Jesus to your friends” button and a “Pay $5 to override the Block function” feature.
what do you mean?
sure, but what are you talking about? your post could apply to anything
Why must you malign shrimp Jesus so
You can run your own relays, the obstacle is that each relay takes up many terabytes. But it’s fully open.
https://github.com/bluesky-social/pds
https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/entries/Notes on Running a Full-Network atproto Relay (July 2024)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42094369
https://docs.bsky.app/docs/advanced-guides/firehose
https://docs.bsky.app/docs/advanced-guides/federation-architecture#relay
Community owned centralized systems are the answer.
Bluesky Social has pledged to transfer the protocol’s development to a standards body such as the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) in the near future.[11]
Let’s see it then. I’m concerned when the opportunity to profit arises that perverse motives will occur.
Absolutely agree. An aspirational goal to an open standard is not an open standard.
seriously.
please show me a single, fully independant instance of their platform that federates.
you cant, because it doesnt exist.
I mean, ATP has only been around for two years, mastodon has been around for 8 years with 6 years of development on AP.
Development takes time, I feel like “show it to me now or it’s a lie” is a poor take.
The code for their instance isn’t open source, so it’s legitimately impossible to host another relay. So until that changes, yes, it’s a lie
Isn’t this the source for the relay? https://github.com/bluesky-social/indigo/tree/main/cmd/bigsky
And even then the readme says:
A note and reminder about Relays in general are that they are more of a convenience in the protocol than a hard requirement. The “firehose” API is the exact same on the PDS and on a Relay. Any service which subscribes to the Relay could instead connect to one or more PDS instances directly.
And the PDS source code is here: https://github.com/bluesky-social/pds
EDIT: The PDS source is actually here: https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto/tree/main/packages/pds the other link is for self hosting.
I had originally not expected it to last a year of Peon Muck’s ownership, but hopefully it’ll finish dying (or fall into complete irrelevance) by the end of 2025.
All it took was the destruction of the American Republic to make lazy people spend five minutes looking for alternatives
They didn’t look for themselves most likely, it’s reached cultural osmosis levels.
Twitter’s already served its purpose. People slagging it off because it’s losing money really don’t understand that it won a country.
Seriously, seizing the means of mass communication means you own democracy, you own the governement, you own everything. Twitter, while it remains how the cultural elites communicate, is worth basically 30 trillions.
Friendship ended with Mastodon
My new best friend is Bluesky
What’s wrong with Bluesky? From my perspective it looks pretty dang wholesome. Could someone please elaborate?
It’s genuinely just people feeling the need to “pick a side”, and it’s unhelpful. Just makes the fans look like clowns.
Bluesky’s got the same vibe as early Twitter (for now). That’s awesome. Mastodon / “the fediverse” can take some time to streamline onboarding so when Bluesky gets sold to Mussolini’s ghost Mastodon will be ready to take the reins.
It failed lemmys rigid purity test.
Oh really. I don’t know what that is. I’ll try to look that up. Thanks!
If Mastodon wanted to be preferred, it should have been better. I moved to Mastodon over a year ago when the Twitter sale first happened. It was not great then and it’s gotten slightly worse since. I created a Bluesky account two days ago and it already offers exactly the experience I missed from Twitter before Elon.
Would it be better if Mastodon was good and the federated FOSS option was superior? Sure, absolutely. But, that scenario isn’t even close to the case we are presented with.
Can you give actual examples?
I feel the only thing that Mastodon ‘misses’ is some feed to get you addicted.
Which is precisely what makes people actually use twitter
Might be paranoid, but I feel as if alot of the anti-mastodon sentiment is astroturfing. Might just be me and my schizo anti-corpo mind though.
Seconded, some specific examples would be helpful.
I’ve been a heavy Mastodon user for two years, and I honestly don’t see why so many people on Lemmy give it so much shit. Certainly not in favour of the likes of Bluesky.
I get WAY more engagement with my posts on there than I ever did on Twitter. And maybe I’m just at an age where I don’t give a shit about celebrity, but I couldn’t care less that all the Big Names have gone to Bluesky and Threads. It’s great not seeing the same people being shared into my TL all the time.
I’ve got a bsky account too but I get way more engagement on my fedi accounts. I’ve been building up my follows for 15 years on the fedi so bsky never had a chance to catch up. it probably never will.
15… Years? On the fediverse? How’d ya manage that without time travel?
The fediverse is older than mastodon.
Friendica and GNU Social/StatusNet date back to 2010. That’s nearly 15 years ago. Diaspora is also from around the same era, which IIRC was aiming to be something more like a decentralized Facebook (with groups and stuff) rather than just status updates like Twitter.
Huh, didn’t realise it was that old. TiL I guess.
“Write a bit about yourself to join this server and if we decide you’re too boring and normal we’ll reject your application and say you’re a spammer afterwards”
Hmm I wonder why normies aren’t flocking to these fediverse platforms, what could be stopping them, couldn’t be the shitty onboarding process could it? Nah asking people to apply is the best onboarding process ever (obvious big ass /s)
Tbf it’s a good way to keep the laziest of shits out
I DON’T RECALL GETTING A PAYCHECK TO POST
Agreed. If someone can’t be bothered to write two sentences, they really have no business being on a discussion platform. Because clearly they won’t be contributing much if anything to the conversation.
Great, so you want to join a club instead of a social media? Is that it? Because that’s what you’re advocating for, small private clubs which most normies don’t have enough interest to join, out of fear of being rejected or just being rejected multiple times anyway. “Wonder why it’s so empty here?” -Lemmy Users trying to figure out why their exclusive Lemmy clubs haven’t taken off.
Most people aren’t satisfied with Lemmy’s very small and stagnant growth, and I can say I’m one of them, asking people to prove their worth and rejecting them for being a normie is a horrible strategy for growth.
Users don’t cost much to keep around, especially if they don’t post. The data needed for the account would be authentication data, and post data, the second of which doesn’t apply to users who don’t post, and the first one being negligible compared to the amount of space available on a common hard drive. So, why not just give them a chance?
What percentage of people who join platforms like Twitter or Bluesky actually post anything though?
So many of the people who are most invested in federation are a contradiction in terms; centralized social media is evil and it’s fucked up that it’s the norm, but also anyone who isn’t a cynical, crotchety Gen Xer with a tech degree doesn’t belong on federated social media.
Talk shit about normies all you want but they’re most of the people who repost memes and give communities life, you can’t cut them out and expect to have a thriving community. These practices of elitism and exclusion are the reason why Mastodon and the fediverse as a whole are stagnating.
Elitist neckbeards like you are why Mastodon and Lemmy are still boring
Many Lemmy instances are requiring their users to apply for an account.
And that makes it better how?
It doesn’t that was the point of my comment, it is sarcastic, because asking normies to write about themselves then manually determine their worth before they join will exclude the vast majority of them. Applications are how you run exclusive clubs, not a social media platform. Which is the biggest reason the Fediverse sucks for regular people.
I don’t want to join a club, I want to join a regular platform. That’s why I joined discuss.online and not any of the other exclusive club instances.
Yeah. I somehow caught that. I wasn’t responding to you.
It lowers the barrier of entry which may deter some people who just want to check out the space first.
Granted, it also makes it more accessible to scammers, so give and take really.
Yeah it’s actually a much bigger problem here than it is on Mastodon. Probably will end up slowing adoption of Lemmy in the future. Especially considering Lemmy is one of those platforms that really needs normie content and normie interaction to keep going, something it’s really struggling at currently.
I tried to join Beehaw simply because a reddit community I was actively part in went there.
I got told that’s not a valid reason to join, and that further applications from me would be ignored. I mean… okay? Sure… guess I’m no longer part of that community.
Beehaw sucks, they embraced the exclusive club mentality harder than anyone else.
Does beehaw no longer federate? Otherwise you can reach that community from lemmy.world and be a part of it you know.
No, they don’t federate any more at all I think.
It also acts as a filter to keep threat actors and spammers out. Open sign ups are actually a bad thing for the overall health of the network. Yes it also keeps out the lowest common denominator normies but those aren’t exactly the ones who contribute to the network as a whole anyway
This isn’t capitalism, there isn’t a need for growth for growth’s sake. There does need to be a more simplified way to onboard users but not at the cost of the health of the network.
Open sign ups are actually a bad thing for the overall health of the network. Yes it also keeps out the lowest common denominator normies but those aren’t exactly the ones who contribute to the network as a whole anyway
This is an elitist mentality that harms the health of the network on its own by limiting the amount of people who interact on the platform and post. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, turning the Fediverse into a club is a horrible way to create a platform where people interact with each other like a social media, because the nature of clubs is that they are small and exclusive.
This isn’t capitalism, there isn’t a need for growth for growth’s sake.
Please don’t mischaracterize the demand for having people interacting on the platform and with as something capitalist, or big tech only for making money, it’s disingenuous because people want to have their posts seen by other people, why else would they even post them publicly? Having more people makes a platform more lively, and having more people voting makes content shift and flow.
Let’s face it, small exclusive clubs are one of the biggest reasons Fediverse hasn’t taken off. And it makes sense since if you don’t let normies in and treat it like a club the place will be dead as fuck and have very few people interacting. Only reason its active now is because many instances used to be open and gained userbases.
There does need to be a more simplified way to onboard users but not at the cost of the health of the network.
No, we don’t need something new and convoluted, that’ll just push out the normies who want to be here or make them not want to. We need to take the page out of big tech’s book, let people and spammers signup freely, and ban the spammers automatically. No one wants to do this, they want to invent new solutions that are unfriendly, or just kick out normies and then complain that this place is sooooo dead. Stick to what works, it wouldn’t have been done that way on the OG centralized social media if it didn’t work.
Also don’t conflate assholes/trolls with spammers, that’s disingenuous as fuck both because you are over-inflating the spam problem to make your elitist solution seem more appealing and also because the solution does not work for both types of people. You’re not going to stop all or even most assholes or trolls by asking them questions, they can lie dumbass have you forgotten that or do you think Instance admins are divine beings who can’t be lied to, if Reddit admins aren’t Lemmy admins sure as fuck aren’t. Some of the biggest assholes I’ve met on Lemmy are on instances with applications, it DOES NOT WORK AGAINST THEM.
I appreciate your take and the thought put into the reply. I don’t mean to gatekeep the fediverse to keep normies out because that isn’t my desire at all. Merely my stance is while I believe that low engagement is very undesirable, high volume of scammers/spammers are equally undesirable.
I’m also thinking of things from a moderator/instance owner point of view where trying to defend your instance from illegal activity, spam, and harmful content is greatly increased by having open sign ups. If the majority of engagement on your posts are from pussy in bio accounts then that is a put off from the end user as well.
Trolls and assholes will always get through if they are motivated enough, fediverse platforms usually gives the end user enough tools to block them.
Your perspective has a lot of valid points as well, I think that there is a compromise somewhere that is slightly more effective than a simple captcha that could also streamline onboarding and validating users. I don’t know if it’s as easy as you suggest to ban spammers automatically but I’m all ears for hearing solutions. I think the fediverse is especially equipped for cooperation that could make that kind of automoderation more successful than on legacy socials
I don’t want the fediverse to be an exclusive club, I am already annoyed about how things can be an echo chamber even worse than legacy socials here at times. My hope that bridges and utilities will come that help people follow each other from bluesky/mastodon and allow account migrations from either as well.
I’m also thinking of things from a moderator/instance owner point of view where trying to defend your instance from illegal activity, spam, and harmful content is greatly increased by having open sign ups. If the majority of engagement on your posts are from pussy in bio accounts then that is a put off from the end user as well.
I don’t particularly agree that it’s “greatly increased” by it. I’m on a server with them and I don’t see that much many more spammers. It seems like fearful hyperbole, I’m not saying there aren’t any I’ve certainly seen a few but it’s not as common as most people think it is.
Your perspective has a lot of valid points as well, I think that there is a compromise somewhere that is slightly more effective than a simple captcha that could also streamline onboarding and validating users. I don’t know if it’s as easy as you suggest to ban spammers automatically but I’m all ears for hearing solutions. I think the fediverse is especially equipped for cooperation that could make that kind of automoderation more successful than on legacy socials
Proof of Work Captchas are very effective when it comes to stopping or slowing down bots, while not impacting regular users much if at all. As for banning spammers automatically it is very easy to set up scripts that ban people for rapid posting, malicious links (bio, posts, comments, DMs), as well as words or phrases associated with spam (buy my Tshirt, check out my OF, see my pussy in my bio). For illegal content, image hashes can be used to automatically purge images and data that is known from the server, while simultaneously banning the people doing it. Rate limiting of suspicious IPs are also another way. There’s probably some more ones that can be done, as well as ways to improve these methods, point is they aren’t new, and they improve the situation for new users who can sign up easily and instantly without worry of rejection or too high expectation.
The big thing about these (except for captchas and PoW) is that they are post-signup methods that catch the people doing it in the act. It might seem like a loss for some since you don’t stop them from signing up at all but you need to remember. Spammers don’t give up, they don’t stop, they don’t care, real normie users do though. You can increase the bar and make them seem to disappear, but then you also lose the flow of real users, as most of them are filtered out or quit. Detecting and purging them automatically is the best way to combat them, captcha and PoW stop people using scripts for batch signup but banning them automatically when they start. If done right, spammers would be auto-banned after a few seconds of spamming or account setup depending which flags they trip first.
I don’t particularly agree that it’s “greatly increased” by it. I’m on a server with them and I don’t see that much many more spammers. It seems like fearful hyperbole, I’m not saying there aren’t any I’ve certainly seen a few but it’s not as common as most people think it is.
My mastodon instance rarely ever sees spam despite having open signups either. Maybe my problem is I’m worried about future problems rather than the current state of how things are. My concern comes from personal experience with legacy socials like facebook and twitter when it comes to spam that I report and the frustration of when I get the automoderation notification back and they determine it didn’t break their guidelines.
I don’t want the cesspool of spam to become a problem on the fediverse as these experiences were a major reason I decided to join it.
I appreciate your comments again. You’ve softened how I feel on the challenge of balancing open user sign ups with moderating malicious users.
At least on the Fediverse when it comes to that most platforms will take spam more seriously than monopolized media, since even if they ignore their users they’ll listen to other admins, and if they don’t they become less popular. But there needs to be an initiative to improve on what big tech as done, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel.
You don’t have to do that when you sign up for mstdn.social, and it’s also not a requirement for mastodon.social And there are more instances where you don’t have to apply like that.
But when it’s asked that you apply to the server, it’s usually to ease the load of moderation, to see if you would fit the vibe of that instance. And/or to protect the more vulnerable people on that particular instance.
You don’t have to do that when you sign up for mstdn.social, and it’s also not a requirement for mastodon.social And there are more instances where you don’t have to apply like that.
Yes, and we need much more like that if we want this platform to be sucessful as a whole. Normies want to join social medias, not clubs.
But when it’s asked that you apply to the server, it’s usually to ease the load of moderation, to see if you would fit the vibe of that instance. And/or to protect the more vulnerable people on that particular instance.
We all know or should know that running a platform like a club where people need to apply and have their worth manually determined is a toxic and unwelcoming environment that does not promote any kind of growth, and the fact that it is common and encouraged is not helpful to the fediverse long term. It just pushes normies away. Because a social media doesn’t ask people to apply, a club does. Most people don’t want to join small exclusive clubs.
The vast majority of users are on general instances without demands like that. If you don’t want to join an exclusive club, just pick a sever that is not intended to be an exclusive club (I.e. nearly any of the big ones).
The top 3 servers on Lemmy are private clubs as of now, they may not have been before but they certainly are now. There are barely any for normies to join. I only found discuss.online because I was lucky enough to, and lets face it this is the only real option because the other one has a swear in the name and most people won’t want to join an immature server like that.
You can’t just pick a server, your options are severely limited, if discuss.online goes away or converts to a club too, there won’t be any options. You can’t “just pick a sever” that only works if you have choices. This is the last one, after that no more choices.
The conversation here is about mastodon
Good point, On Mastodon there are a handful more options but it’s generally not much better over there. Point is the Fediverse is suffering from becoming a collection of exclusive clubs rather than a social media platform.
Yes, and we need much more like that if we want this platform to be sucessful as a whole. Normies want to join social medias, not clubs.
Why? There’s plenty of general servers aimed at normies that don’t require you to write an essay about yourself.
Let those specialty servers be specialty servers. Some only want artists, some only want neurodivergent people, some only want trans people on their platform. That’s their right! They get to decide who comes on their platform and who doesn’t. It’s not up to you to decide that for them. You need to understand that the people hosting these servers are not gazillionaires that do this out of the kindness of their hearts, they want to foster a certain atmosphere and a certain community on their server, and they do their best to keep disruptive people out. And one way of doing that is by limiting who gets on.
So instead of desperately trying to join blahaj_artists.social, why not join normies.social like mastodon.social or mstdn.social, or mastodon.coffee or any of the other ‘normie’ mastodon servers.
Go here, select “Sign up process: instant” and choose any of the servers on that page, and you’ll get in, without having to write an essay about yourself.
I just created this account. I went to Lemmy.world to make a new one and it said I need to fill out an application. I laughed. Get out of here with that nonsense.
It is bullshit and it will hurt Lemmy and the fediverse greatly in the long term since they’ve effectively crippled the onboarding process and turned their instance into a club.
Heres the thing with federation
It will always be more complicated, and lead to smaller segregated communities. This mitigstes the network effect social media services rely on
The consumer lockin then monetization lockdown cycle always sheds users. I think eventually most federated systems will gain users, albeit slowly.
This only works if a new centralized network doesnt take its place, Blueskys existence kinda proves thats not always the case
The proof is that mastodon user base is steadily going up. There hasn’t been a giant spike in a while but the barrier to monetization is too high for it to shed users from that. Its more like how wikipedia has outlived google as a resource despite wikipedia not being particularly better now than soon after it started.
I don’t really under the hate towards BlueSky, did they do something really unacceptable that I am missing out on?
The idea is that these social media sites always become monopolies. That occurs because no one can communicate with each other across platforms, which eventually leads to a majority of users migrating to a single platform over time. Once that happens, the social media group no longer has to try and the media site enshittifies slowly over time. On top of this, the insane amount of users also cripples the centralized system’s ability to self-moderate properly, leading to user-based enshittification as well.
With federated social media, that barrier doesn’t exist, and, in theory, the subsequent conglomeration of users doesn’t happen. Additionally, federated instances can be self-hosted and sport much smaller userbases which can make self-moderation much simpler.
The joke in the video is that rather than switching to federated social media like mastodon and lemmy, twitter users chose to go to yet another centralized social media site (which while having a federation protocol, is unlikely to have users utilizing that defederation). Essentially, Billy is abandoning twitter to go to another site which will potentially have the same downward trend as twitter did before.
If the internet has a future, it’s on the Fediverse. We work around capitalism to avoid enshittification, or we let it defer our future further.
In the meantime, the Fediverse needs to get shiny and intuitive. The sign that something is cumbersome and hard to use is people saying “it’s not that bad”.
People may disagree with how BlueSky is organized and architected, but I get why they decided to do what they did. User experience.
Their architectural decisions mean that people don’t have to worry about instances confusing people, and the org structure means is easy to staff a proper dedicated experience team that can be working, planning, and testing before big expensive decisions are committed to code.
You forgot one main thing, 🤑🤑🤑🤑.
Filing as a B corp wouldn’t be my first choice if I was trying to prioritize getting rich.
That is how it usually starts. It start innocent but the moment you see potential money or the funding runs out you either become like OpenAI, Google or go obscure worst bankruptcy. It does not help that their protocol is basically how search engine works today. They control the flow of information and funded by venture capital.
Yeah probably. If you told me in 2013 that reddit would go to shit in 2023 I would not really do anything different. Knowing bluesky will go to shit wouldn’t really change anything (if I was a fan of the Twitter format) either.
Bluesky is apart of the Fediverse and the quicker ActivityPub sites accommodate that fact the quicker we’ll have an open internet.
This pissing fight between ActivityPub sites and Bluesky is dumb and doesn’t further an open internet.
Not directed at you but to a lot, go put time into making Mastodon compatible with atProto instead of bitching.
Didn’t BlueSky come up with their own federation system because… Fuck you?
I mean, what was wrong with using the ActivityPub standard?
I can’t find the source but if I recall bluesky relies on running feeds through central servers and it has patents on its methods so I would say bsky federation has some asterisks. They have done a great job insulating users from the structural elements which reduces confusion.
It’s almost like the average person doesn’t care about the fediverse and decentralisation and only wants muskless twitter. Nooo clearly the normies are idiot sheep
Bluesky is Decentralized, people are moving to Bluesky because it is easier to use and has better UI and UX. The reason people are moving to Bluesky and not mastodon has nothing to do with Decentralized, it is because it is simply user friendly. I used both and I think currently that Bluesky is definitely better. One of the biggest issues is the app, many users use their phones and The mastadon apps are awful in comparison to bluesky.
https://www.hostinger.com/tutorials/how-to-host-a-bluesky-pds
That’s exactly the thing, mastodon has all of these nerd things attached to it that most people won’t care about, whilst BlueSky doesn’t
Yeah, Bluesky has both federation and ease of use, which is why many prefer it over Mastodon. Instead of making someone search for a server to join, Bluesky gives you a default server which makes it easier for less tech savvy users.
bluesky does not have functional federation by any reasonable measure.
It is currently early access, but should be opened to everyone later. There is also a bridge that links Bluesky and Mastadon. https://docs.bsky.app/blog/self-host-federation
A bridge is a tool for connecting things don’t connect, it is not federation.
The relay layer/app view forces you under the control of a centralized system at a fundamental level with bluesky, the only thing meaningful about that kind of federation is hosting costs for processing and storing post data are offloaded onto the user.
…Which when you think about it is actually pretty fucking insulting to the fediverse and what is trying to be when bluesky pretends it is aiming for true federation and decentralization.
This, right there. What FOSS fans fail to understand is that some apps feel like a jigsaw to use for people less experienced in technology. Some people barely have an idea about how browser cookies work, and they are expected to understand the concept of manually picking up a server to create an account on, and you would still not be connected to everyone.
People are also expected to understand the concept of manually picking a brand of toothpaste. My point is that if we can’t even expect a little consumer choice (the same consumer choice we have in the real world), then we deserve all the monopolization and centralization we get.
Also, selecting a Mastodon server isn’t like some scary technical choice. It’s like a vibe check and a signup form.
Bluesky is not decentralized if you have to use their relay to access the network from your PDS
If the reason people only want bluesky is because it’s Elon-less Twitter then they are stupid and wrong (or just ignorant). But then they can move to the next thing in 5 years when the enshittification happens.
Yup, there it is.
deleted by creator
Its got faults but it’s currently where the big batch of users seems to be going and since some of my interests are pretty narrow that means a lot more to read and see in those interests (or it exists at all). That’s kinda hard to ignore tbh. Its not right wing infested and I’ve already got elon, musk, trump and a bunch of other stuff auto filtered.
