We know what happens with peaceful protests, elections, and foreign interference (and more foreign interference), so how can Palestine gain it’s freedom? Any positive ideas are welcome, because this situation is already a humanitarian crisis and is looking bleaker by the day.
Historical references are also valuable in this discussion, like slave revolts or the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, although hopefully in the case of Palestine a peaceful and successful outcome can be achieved, as opposed to some of the historical events above.
Stop being a bunch of antisemitic terrorists
Seems very unlikely. The most likely way is if Israel gets annihilated, which would require also destroying the US military capacity. Absolute horror and possibly ww3 is the only way.
I think they probably have to leave. They’ve been treated horribly, but there is no hope on the horizon as far as I can see. Israel is cursed, Gaza is cursed.
The simple answer is, realistically, Palestine can’t do it alone without help. Some other country will have to step up and get involved.
Currently, even the countries who don’t necessarily back Israel aren’t interested in helping Palestinians, including major Muslim countries in the Middle East.
It could have something to do with the history of Jordanian Civil war, which was a war between the King of Jordan and the Palestine Liberation Organization. Islamic countries like Jordan and Egypt haven’t exactly been stellar friends to the people of Palestine ever since.
So unless things change somehow, they will likely not gain their freedom.
Some other country will have to step up and get involved.
Alternatively/Additionally, some countries need to stop getting involved. Mostly Iran. They have no interest in helping Palestinians either, they just care about removing Israel from the map and will back any extremist groups in the area that does so as well.
Thank you, that is a good answer. I have been wondering why Jordan has been pretty hands-off, I’ll have to look into the Jordanian civil war.
on the other hand, there could be an enemy of my enemy situation, because everyone in the Middle East hates Israel (and for good reason too: not only is Israel run by genocidal fucks, but they stole everyone’s land). it’s not impossible that Jordan, Egypt, and neighboring countries would gang up on Israel.
it’s not impossible that Jordan, Egypt, and neighboring countries would gang up on Israel.
This has literally already happened. Israel beat them all in six days.
There really is no other solution than stopping the attacks and trying to establish diplomatic connections.
That’s what the PA is doing, and the result is the West Bank.
By not killing civilians maybe. By engaging in actual normal warfare if it insists it cannot achieve success peacefully. By not encouraging persecution around the world or siding with nations such as Russia and North Korea. By respecting human rights within its borders. Can’t be too much to ask.
How could they engage in normal warfare?
Edit: also, does killing civilians make a whole country fair game to be attacked violently or something?
Let me put it this way, how many of us are anti-nuclear-arms? I’m sure most of us are. Nuclear assault is seen as the epitome of abnormal warfare as it kills people who have nothing to do with a conflict, and nuclear war, defined as when the two nations start throwing nuclear weapons at each other, is seen as absolutely unnecessary escalation under any circumstances considered normal as well as no better just because someone fired the first shot. If there is no distinction between “normal” and “abnormal” warfare though, surely nuclear attack wouldn’t be off the table.
Other forms of warfare follow this logic. Biological weapons attack indiscriminate people and spread in a population and even cross borders. Arson spreads and doesn’t care what it consumes. Landmines like those still littering previously war-torn nations, including those we discuss here, are not programmed to factor in political or religious allegiance. Such things are akin to boxing out of a ring and are highly condemned. If Palestine and its allies don’t change its stance on how warfare is supposed to work, then if they did become fully independent, it would be a shameful new existence, built on national character flaws that would haunt and define any who call themselves Palestinian patriots.
When the Ismaili Muslims were still around in the 1100’s, their mode of warfare was simply to have spies sneak into a fortress and eliminate the leader, sparing the people who do the dirty work, with the intention that the heir would yield, like how in chess you wouldn’t eliminate the other pieces besides the king if you don’t have to. It was called fedai warfare and this was the world’s most peaceful form of open warfare and perhaps more normal than what we call normal. What a leap we took in modern times, where nobody is safe and nothing is off the table.
Targeting civilians is bad.
Terrorists, including those who target civilians, are combatants, and are valid targets. They remain valid targets when they use schools, hospitals, mosques, churches, and residential areas as bases for combat operations. This is pretty clear in international law.
Israel still must not target civilians, and must take reasonable measures to minimize civilian casualties of war. We’ve seen Israel, in at least some contexts, take quite extreme measures to warn civilians, help evacuate civilians, and carefully target munitions to minimize civilian death despite Hamas and PIJ using those civilians as human shields.
The raw numbers are still gruesome… unless you compare them to other instances of urban warfare, in which case the numbers are actually lower than many would expect. The civilian death ratio, as far as we’ve been able to estimate (since Hamas does not estimate), appears to be lower than usual.
Civilian deaths are tragic. It would obviously be much better if Hamas had not started this war, or if they would agree to the ceasefire Israel offered, or if they weren’t so committed to war in general. But they are. They frequently condemn even the concept of peace, and insist that they will repeat the October 7th attack as often as they can. There is no avenue to peace while they remain in power.
So the war will continue. And we will continue to hope that Israel does its best to minimize harm to civilians.
What is “normal warfare?”
Warfare that is self-contained, distinguishes between combatant and non-combatant, does not cause damage that ends up being permanent, and doesn’t make metaphorical deals with the devil.
There is no such thing as “normal” or “good” or “moral” warfare. War is war. And war is hell. Regardless of where it’s happening or what reasons are given to justify it. Every bit of time, resources, and effort directed toward war is time, resources, and effort stolen from advancing humanity and uplifting ourselves. By it’s very nature, war has no rules. The dream of a “self-contained, limited-casualty, non-permanent damage” warfare is frankly naive. My experience may be colored by having grown up in and witnessed war in various times in my life, but there is NEVER a reason for war. Because at the end of each and every disagreement, conflict, war…etc., one thing happens: they have to sit down and talk. So it’s all just futile and wasted effort. We steal from ourselves and our children only to end up doing the very thing we should have been doing all along: putting ego (in the psychological sense) aside and talking.
That is assuming war is a single entity. War is more like a series of actions due to how blurry it is. Certainly a hacking is far better than sending a nuclear missile for example. It is these actions that are condemnable when we say war is condemnable. Sometimes a war is even one-sided enough we don’t even call it a war. In Palestine’s case, had they not resorted to what amounts to forcing the burden, they’d have less dismissal than, say, simply sending regular units.
had they not resorted to what amounts to forcing the burden
This is a justification (and not a good one, imo), like the ones I was talking about above. There is no just war. No just response. It just creates more death and destruction.
Maybe ask Israel to stop occupying Gaza (and the rest of Palestine) before demanding that. This isn’t a war between countries; this is an occupied territory fighting for freedom.
Gaza has not been occupied since 2005.
Palestinian arabs have been launching pogroms against Jews without rest since 1920, but Israel didn’t occupy the West Bank or Gaza until 1967. Maybe if Israelis felt they could possibly be safe without occupying the West Bank, they would try it. Like they tried with Gaza. Gee, look how that played out.
Gee, I wonder how Germany and Japan managed to get freedom from occupation… Oh right, they went with peace!
Ask the UN what they think of Gaza’s status. Hint: They won’t say “independent state”.
I don’t care what their opinion is, Israel in fact ended the occupation of Gaza in 2005.
People are now upset about a blockade that started in 2007. Aside from ignoring the reasons for the blockade, and totally ignoring the two years between the end of the occupation and the start of the blockade, people like to pretend the blockade is an occupation because it’s not very nice and they don’t know how to talk about an unoccupied Gaza (or because they’re just too stupid to know what’s going on there).
The United Nations, international human rights organizations and many legal scholars regard the Gaza Strip to still be under military occupation by Israel.[4] This is disputed by Israel and other legal scholars.[74] They argue that occupation requires an actual, physical presence by a military force that maintains authority.
Following the withdrawal, Israel continued to maintain direct control over Gaza’s air and maritime space, six of Gaza’s seven land crossings, maintains a no-go buffer zone within the territory, controls the Palestinian population registry, and Gaza remains dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.[4][75]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
There’s still a right and wrong way to do that. The attack on October 7th is unbecoming of anyone who wouldn’t exist in shame if they had that freedom. In fact, if Palestine and Hamas are distinct, literally the only thing Palestine had to do was condemn Hamas’ actions that day, even if Palestine enjoyed the fruits of the attack, but Palestine instead decided to stand by Hamas. And here everyone is.
So I wrote about this before so I’ll just copy and paste:
The serious argument that October 7th was legitimate resistance relies on the fact that it was against military targets, with no evidence the leadership ordered anything close to slaughter of civilians. Add in that even after the IDF shelled and shot their own citizens the civilian casualty rate was 66% and the idea that Hamas just passed the border and randomly murdered civilians falls apart pretty quickly. Of course not denying the atrocities that actually happened, but October 7th as a whole was legitimate resistance with an army that’s prone to committing war crimes, not a terror attack with the goal of murdering civilians. This distinction is important because “atrocities were committed on October 7th” and “October 7th was a terror attack” aren’t equivalent statements.
End copy paste.
Therefore there’s no reason to condemn the attack. The lack of condemnation of atrocities committed during the attack is pretty bad and the result of rampant anti-Semitism in the Arab world, but there’s no reason to condemn October 7th itself.
What’s often downplayed is that during the Oct 7 revolt, Israeli child casualties were 3% of total casualties. We know how that figures against Palestinian child casualties.
The resistance argument falls apart when you remember the attacks coincided with not one but two Jewish observances. Ever since the hospital incident, it’s also widely known for fact in developed nations that those targeting Israel have been honest about the war and is good at its dishonesty.
It also coincided with the 50th anniversary of October 7th, basically the Arab victory over Israel. Also Idk if the Jewish observances were intentional or not, but attacking your enemy while they have their guard down is common sense.
I think it’s when
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both countries have a military
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the countries at war are not bound by occupation law.
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Within Israel, the vast majority of people don’t particularly care about any kind of manifest destiny style reclamation of the West Bank or Gaza, and if that were the only issue, I genuinely don’t think there would be a significant problem.
What essentially everyone does care about, however, is repeatedly having rockets lobbed at them. When people feel under threat, reason starts to fall away, people begin dehumanizing the “other”, and you get the massive mess we have today. The fact of the matter is that Israel will never accept any situation where its people are under threat. No matter what you think about what acts are or aren’t justified or your opinion on how various parts of the history played out, none of that changes this basic reality.
Palestine is not going to be able to militarily eradicate Israel. There is precisely zero chance that Israelis allow themselves to be subjected to a second diaspora and they’ll fight to the death to prevent this, and that’s to say nothing of external players like the United States. Again, whether you think this is a good thing or a bad thing, it is a true thing.
On the flip side, Israel is perfectly capable of essentially eradicating the Palestinians, though this would subject it to massive international condemnation that would also have huge economic impacts. You’re already beginning to see whispers of this as the world increasingly sees Israel’s response in Gaza as being excessively harsh. The most they could do is a slow and steady degradation of Palestinian society while encouraging them to “voluntarily” leave, which is arguably what the strategy has essentially been under Likud with settlements and the like.
So, what’s required for a peaceful co-existence? Firstly, you need a mutual acknowledgement from both leaders (and also, a legitimate Palestinian leadership in the first place) that the other side exists and has a right to do so, ie, Palestinians giving up on the idea of eradicating Israel and Israelis giving up on the idea of fully annexing and ethnically cleaning Palestinian lands. This is not a trivial thing. The Israeli far-right, though they’re not dominant, are growing and believe they have a divine right to the West Bank, with the Arabs being seen as little more than animals in the way. The extreme Palestinian side is that all Israelis are essentially foreign invaders and should be forcibly removed or killed. Both of these positions must be completely taken off the table.
Secondly, Israel will not engage unless it is confident that its security will not be threatened, which will in practice mean that Palestinian authorities must be de-militarized beyond what’s necessary for basic local law enforcement. Again, this might seem unfair, and hell, it probably is. But the fact of the matter remains that Israel is the side holding the guns here, so you either play by their rules and try to find some positive outcome, or you flip the table and enjoy the complete loss, but with some moral satisfaction. Similarly, there would probably need to be some kind of border controls for imports that Israeli authorities can inspect for covert weapons shipments, since it’s a known thing that Iran does regularly try to bring weapons into Gaza. Ideally, this would be some kind of bi-national force with Palestinian cooperation.
If you reach these points, then you still have other very big questions to deal with, like precise borders, land swaps, the question of Jerusalem, how to connect Gaza and the West Bank, any right of return for displaced Palestinians both recently and during the Nakba, and plenty of other things I’m sure I’m forgetting about. But ultimately, if you have a Palestinian and Israeli leadership that are actually interested in peace and accept the existence of the other, and both agree to cooperate on matters of security and prioritizing that peace above and past grievances, no matter how legitimate, that gives you a real foundation you can build from.
I wouldn’t get my hopes up though.
What essentially everyone does care about, however, is repeatedly having rockets lobbed at them. When people feel under threat, reason starts to fall away, people begin dehumanizing the “other”, and you get the massive mess we have today. The fact of the matter is that Israel will never accept any situation where its people are under threat.
I get what you mean, but the current situation has continued since even before the rocket attacks. Gaza was blockaded before rocket attacks even became a thing (setting aside the second Intifada because that’s its own thing). What I mean is: Israeli’s feeling under threat is probably a factor, but it’s not the main issue.
and also, a legitimate Palestinian leadership in the first place
True enough, but let’s remember that it’s Israel that engineered a situation where they can claim Palestine has no legitimate leadership. You’re not wrong about the fact, but I just wanted to make the cause clear.
For sure, I’m not at all trying to portray Israel as blameless here, because they are not.
I think the blockade does have some basic level of merit, at least in principle (it can’t really be doubted that Hamas does import weapons and materials with Iranian backing), but it’s critical that those kinds of controls only go as far as they’re needed and no further. However, the Israeli government has never really cared about not going to far, so Palestinians have no real reason to trust that they’re being treated in good faith, violence comes to feel like the only real option, and onwards the mess rolls along.
Along with Palestinians needing to accept that Israel is going to exist in some capacity and that it will not accept any deal that doesn’t ensure its security, Israelis need to accept that if they don’t take every step towards keeping peaceful paths available and fruitful, then people will turn to violent ones. Israel can of course easily win a conflict of violence, but it doesn’t have to be this way
Thanks for the detailed and thought out response. I can’t help but notice that it’s built on a foundation of autocracy and Israeli exceptionalism i.e. Israel holds all the guns so they call the shots and they have the singular privilege of having non-hostile neighbors while every other country in the world except the U.S. should respect negotiations and international law, and many have hostile neighbors but that’s ok. I can’t blame you, though, because the narrative is thus constructed: Israel alone has the right to security, Israel alone has the right to self-determination, Israel alone has the right to self-defense, etc. Why doesn’t Palestine? The narrative says “because they lob mortar shells over the fence” which is a pure double standard (Israeli exceptionalism). History must be erased to maintain the narrative, like the invasion of Akka among many others. When a country has such a consistent history, it’s rational to believe that they will continue annexing Palestinian lands, so it’s very important that the narrative removes the Palestinian right to self-defense as well as erasing Israel’s colonial history. The truth is different, though.
I’m speaking solely to the facts on the ground.
Regardless of anyone’s thoughts on the matter, Israel does hold all the guns here. Rights and privileges mean as much as the paper they’re printed on. In a perfect world, Israel and Palestine would exist side by side as peaceful partners, each with fully fledged institutions and militaries and all that jazz. But unless Israel is confident that a Palestinian military won’t have its destruction as its primary goal, it will not allow that to happen, no matter how much pontificating about rights and narratives and double standards anyone does. I’m not trying to talk about who’s “right”, whatever that even means. I’m talking about the actual situation and what will actually happen, regardless of anyone’s opinions on the matter.
When a country has such a consistent history, it’s rational to believe that they will continue annexing Palestinian lands
And an Israeli would say that Palestinians have a consistent history of attempting to murder Israeli civilians and so it is rational to never allow them to build up any military power, and thus the circus goes round. My point is that no amount of moral superiority means very much if you don’t have actual power to go along with it, and Palestinians simply do not. If the goal is actually to develop a real peace rather than avenge any sins of the past, both sides will have to give up on prior grievances and decide that they care more about the lives of their children than their own pride. It’s hard to imagine the situation being much worse than it already is (though I’m sure it’ll find a way)
Here’s a decent framework in my opinion.
I feel like he totally misunderstood the concept of a Palestinian “right of return.” They’re not asking for a right to return to a future Palestinian state, that isn’t a controversial thing, they would obviously be in control of their own immigration policy. They want a right for millions of Palestinians to “return” to Israel.
Israelis view this not only as an unacceptable danger, but as a move that would end Israeli democracy; an instant majority of Muslim voters, many of whom were raised to believe that Israeli civilians should not be allowed to live, would turn Israel into, you know, the rest of the Middle East. Ban alcohol, ban homosexuality, ban apostasy, ban building synagogues or churches, do everything else every other Muslim-majority country does.
This was one of the major sticking points at Camp David. And this guy just totally missed it.
I dont feel that a two state solution would actually fix things. Creating a Palestinian state would be incredibly difficult, it’s why attempts to do so have failed. Israel would object to all but the most disfavorable terms for the Palestinians, and as seen in the past, Palestinians will object to disfavorable terms.
Forcing a two state solution on them will not work either, wherever state lines have been drawn in the past there has been conflict because of those borders.
A Palestinian state would also give some legitimacy for Israel to create conflicts with them, and due to their hyper-militization and incredible intelligence capabilities (much less, the capabilities of the USA helping them out) would certainly make any conflicts with the fledgling nation. There will be no peace when there is official means for the two sides to fight amongst them selves, especially when adding religion, border disputes, and Israel’s history of oppression.
Ideally, as an anarchist, I’d love a no state solution, as it would be impossible for state mechanisms to oppress any group of people with no state. But I think that is not geopolitically feasible because states like states, and creating a stateless society would harm the legitimacy of states themselves.
Realistically, I think a one-state solution is necessary, but not in the sense of making it an ethnostate for any one group. We would need to follow in the footsteps of attempts to do similar tasks, be it the de-apartheidization of south africa, as well as from the horrors America did in the wake of reconstruction and their colonial expansion, abd various other former setteler-colonial countries. And we should certainly learn from the mistakes of the past. Speaking as an American, with an American-centric view, I think the best way forward is decolonization.
Israel is rightfully concerned by becoming the minority, they’ve done unspeakable evils to Palestinians, and many Israelis think they are beyond forgiveness, that they are too far gone. Combine that with a long history of minority jewish groups being oppressed by many states all over the world, and their anxiety on this is very understandable.
However, as long as there is oppression, there will not be peace. Putting a minority group on par with a majority group gives an unequal advantage to the minority, but letting the minority group get trampled is just as bad. I think that in order to protect the religious rights, the state must be secular, and it must have inalienable rights enshrined to everyone equally.
I think the only way to lower tensions is for Palestinians to forgive Israelis, and the only way for that to happen is for Israel to make up for their crimes. State leaders should be prosecuted, war criminals should be prosecuted, and Israel should fund the repairs needed to provide housing to Gazans, and Palestinians who fled. Palestinians should be able to return to their homelands, and if their homes still exist, they should return to them. If this involves kicking out an Israeli, the state should fund housing for them.
This isn’t a complete plan by any means, and I don’t want to insinuate that it is. This is just my statist idea on how peace could be achieved, even if I believe that a stateless anarchist revolution would do waaaay better.
Free Palestine. FTRTTS
Palestinians have to kill Hamas to gain their freedom. Unfortunately, Israel blockades weapons from Gaza, so the Palestinians have no chance to fight for their own freedom.
Leftist government in Israel (like Rabin) would help
China having more global influence than USA would help
China having more global influence than USA would help
… would it? I’m not sure I see how.
The support of Israel in the USA becomes a partisan issue.
We are already seeing division within Democrats for supporting Israel, with younger people mostly anti-Zionism. Likely with the next Democratic President and possibly because of Israeli meddling in supporting Republicans, the USA drops its veto of Palestinian statehood. At this point, Israel likely gets very cagey and may try to start a war to expel all Palestinians, but that act of aggression will be met with a response.
Very interesting, thanks.
Violence is the only option, even if you don’t like it. Ask Nelson Mandela.
Alternatively, like in Canada, have your people become the majority and give them Independence, and forget about the destruction of the natives.
Liberation will never be given to you by your oppressor.
Realistically I think the only option for Palestinians to keep the West Bank and Gaza is for the us to enforce a 2 state solution (basically guarantee the safety of both nations from attack).
Part of the issue with Gaza is Israel is scared if they stop policing the border/sea/air they will be armed by Iran and then attack, some third party has to ensure their defense in order for them to stop.
It isn’t an ideal solution in any sense of the word but at least it could relieve the suffering of the Palestinians and give them the ability to self govern in the places they have left.
I don’t think Lemmy is powerful enough to enforce that.
Realistically?
They can’t. Not without a major change in American politics, which is unlikely given the amount of lobbying power that Israel has, and the grip that Evangelicals have on right-wing political power in the US. Anti-BDS (boycott, divestment, sanctions) laws intended to prevent people from protesting Israeli policies by cutting funding to the country have passed in nearly all states. We can see, with the way that current events are unfolding, that even expressing support for the Palestinian people is resulting in people being labelled as antisemitic.
(For reference - Evangelicals support Israel as a Jewish apartheid ethnostate because they believe that the Jews need to control Jerusalem and Israel in order for Jesus to return. It has nothing to do with Evangelicals liking Jews, which they mostly don’t. If you don’t want to believe that, I can certainly help you find sermons from megachurch pastors saying precisely that, but I generally try to avoid listening to that trash.)
We’re very slowly starting to see that kind of change now, with the way that the youngest generations in the US as more supportive of the Palestinian people. But it’s not likely to mean much, since by the time they have enough political power to do anything, Israel will have completed genocide.
Good points. Regarding Evangelicals, don’t they believe that when Jesus returns (is that called the rapture?) all the Jews will die or something?
Not exactly; I think that it’s supposed to be more like the Jews will finally realize that Jesus was their messiah all along, and will convert on the spot to christianity. There are other things that need to happen at the same time, like the whole world turning against Israel (…like, say, because Israel was a genocidal apartheid ethnostate run by murderous far-right authoritarians…?), that two or three prophets will be killed in Jerusalem and the bodies will remain in the street for a few days, etc. The so-called prophecy is loose enough that people can always say that the end times are nigh.
I’ve been out of that for nearly 20 years, so I’m not nearly as well versed in it as I used to be.
I mean, the Olmert proposal was an opportunity. The 2005 Israeli withdrawal from Gaza was an opportunity. It doesn’t seem that “freedom” was good enough for Palestinians back then.
The Olmert proposal where Israel wanted to keep 10% of the West Bank? And what opportunity in 2005 they fucking blockaded the place as soon as they left.
The Olmert proposal where Israel wanted to keep 10% of the West Bank (not that we know much about the proposal or why it failed, but from that point it’s a no-go)?
No, the actual Olmert proposal. It involved land swaps for about 6.3% of the West Bank (to help minimize the number of Israelis who need to be forced out of their homes), giving East Jerusalem to the Palestinians, supporting the establishment of a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as the capitol…
Abbas didn’t feel like negotiating from that starting point. Because he either didn’t want peace, or didn’t think he could swing it politically (with a Hamas-dominated Palestinian Authority). A not-one-inch even-with-land-swaps even-with-this even-with-that policy is not conducive to peace.
And what opportunity in 2005 they fucking blockaded the place as soon as they left.
No, the blockade started in 2007. You’re missing the two years where Gaza was totally free and Hamas used that freedom to ramp up rocket fire, kill their opponents in Fatah, and gain a majority in the PA.
Actually you’re both wrong, in 2005:
Following the withdrawal, Israel continued to maintain direct control over Gaza’s air and maritime space, six of Gaza’s seven land crossings, maintains a no-go buffer zone within the territory, controls the Palestinian population registry, and Gaza remains dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.[4][75]
A British Parliamentary commission, summing up the situation eight months later, found that while the Rafah crossing agreement worked efficiently, from January–April 2006, the Karni crossing was closed 45% of the time, and severe limitations were in place on exports from Gaza, with, according to OCHA figures, only 1,500 of 8,500 tons of produce getting through; that they were informed most closures were unrelated to security issues in Gaza but either responses to violence in the West Bank or for no given reason. The promised transit of convoys between Gaza and the West Bank was not honoured; with Israel insisting that such convoys could only pass if they passed through a specially constructed tunnel or ditch, requiring a specific construction project in the future; Israel withdrew from implementation talks in December 2005 after a suicide bombing attack on Israelis in Netanya[28] by a Palestinian from Kafr Rai.[79]
Gaza hasn’t been free since at least 1967.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
How much land do you think Ukraine should cede for peace? How much control should Russia have in Ukraine’s government in exchange for ending the occupation?
These are honest questions, I would like to know what you and others think.
Also, are you aware of Palestine’s proposal to respect the 1967 borders, which Israel rejected?
How much land do you think Ukraine should cede for peace?
For a war Russia started? With no justification? None. Not even land swaps.
How much control should Russia have in Ukraine’s government in exchange for ending the occupation?
As much as it takes for Russian civillians to be safe, which is to say, again, none. Ukraine does not have a history of massacring Russian civilians, they haven’t repeatedly stated that they’d repeat attacks on Russian civilians ad infinitum after any hypothetical ceasefire.
Also, are you aware of Palestine’s proposal to respect the 1967 borders, which Israel rejected?
Which proposal?
I totally agree with you on Ukraine.
I think the main success of the current narrative on Palestine is disguising Israeli expansion as Israeli self-defense. Here’s a map of the UN partition plan for Palestine and you can check today’s borders to see how much land Palestine has ceded to Israel, unwillingly of course. Israel was created as a result of the Palestine Civil War and have been expanding ever since. That was the plan the whole time, as it says in the above linked page:
Zionist leaders viewed the acceptance of the plan as a tactical step and a stepping stone to future territorial expansion over all of Palestine.
I don’t see how Palestine is any different from Ukraine in terms of needing to cede land to the invader in exchange for peace. What do you think? I’m sure there’s a lot I’m not aware of.
About the negotiations and truce offered to Israel:
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna24235665
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders
Oh and one more thing, you said
For a war Russia started? With no justification?
but there was justification, I believe it was NATO encroachment or something about Nazis in Ukraine. I’m not saying it was good justification but I would like to point out that there was justification (just like Colin Powell in front of congress with a vial of white powder that was something something WMDs in Iraq) and I’m sure someone, somewhere was saying “doesn’t Russia have the right to self defense?”. If I understand correctly, the justification for Israel invading Palestine in the first place was “we are God’s chosen people and we want this land” which is an extremely flimsy justification but that might just be my personal opinion because I’m not religious.
I think the main success of the current narrative on Palestine is disguising Israeli expansion as Israeli self-defense. Here’s a map of the UN partition plan for Palestine and you can check today’s borders to see how much land Palestine has ceded to Israel, unwillingly of course. Israel was created as a result of the Palestine Civil War and have been expanding ever since. That was the plan the whole time, as it says in the above linked page:
Arabs rejected that partition plan and waged war after war against Israel. Land changed hands both ways in the late 1940s—the great sin of Israel is that it won more land than it lost, that’s what the Arabs can’t forgive them for. The Arabs started the war thinking they could beat the Jews and expel them altogether.
Some of the land taken in 1967 is up for debate, but regions like the Golan Heights have a large strategic value and have historically been used to attack Israel. Israel happily returned Sinai to Egypt for peace. I’m generally opposed to settlement expansion, but that’s almost never framed as self-defense. And the current war in Gaza is really not expansionist.
I don’t see how Palestine is any different from Ukraine in terms of needing to cede land to the invader in exchange for peace. What do you think? I’m sure there’s a lot I’m not aware of.
I’m assuming you’re talking about the Olmert proposal or similar, since land isn’t really a big part of the Gaza debate, Israel wants the hostages back and Hamas gone.
Peace is the concession being made by Palestine, not for Palestine. many Palestinians are strongly opposed to peace with Israel. Hamas is categorically opposed. Palestinians want an end to the occupation, control of East Jerusalem, as much land as they can get, and a totally unrealistic “right of return” that would realistically end Israel.
The deal in question included East Jerusalem, removal of Israeli settlers from the west bank, an end to the occupation, acceptance of a number of Palestinian immigrants into Israel, and was just a starting point.
The land swaps—not a one-sided cession, swaps—are designed around areas that are already mostly Israeli settlers. Practically, moving multiple townfulls’ worth of settlers is really unrealistic. Israel removed 80,000 settlers from Gaza unilaterally during 2005, and is willing to remove more but removing hundreds of thousands, especially from towns that are already mostly Israeli, is an extreme challenge and land swaps are a practical way to get around it.
About the negotiations and truce offered to Israel:
Lol, I assumed you were talking about a peace deal. Hamas was really open about this one: permanent concessions (there was more to it than just the land), in exchange for a temporary truce that was just a strategic aim on their part to shore up resources so they could more effectively massacre all of Israel when the truce had ended. And there’s no way they’d be able to keep the truce going for as long as they said, they couldn’t even handle the days-long truce in the current war.
but there was justification, I believe it was NATO encroachment or something about Nazis in Ukraine.
Lol, Ukraine never joined NATO, even after the Donbas invasion, Ukraine was literally run by a Jew, and the Russians have turned the Azov battalion into heroes. And none of that would have been grounds for war, if it made any sense to begin with.
the justification for Israel invading Palestine in the first place was “we are God’s chosen people and we want this land”
… what the fuck are you talking about? Are you attempting to describe the Israeli War of Independence? Or something else? I’m so confused.
Realistically? Unless the international community (or the Muslim world) have a change of heart, the Hamas way of "get Israel to broadcast their atrocities to the world as loudly as possible) seems to be the best bet currently. A direct war of liberation is impossible because of the blockade, but at this rate the international community might actually give Israel the Apartheid treatment in two or three decades.
