This is going to have a much bigger impact on the third would countries.
Most people here are not going to buy a new computer there are tons of people who buy second hand laptops that are old to be able to afford them.
Additionally people are not tech savvy and don’t understand the implication of this. When they see an ad that says to buy a new computer, they are going to dismiss it the same way they dismiss all the other ads online telling them to buy stuff.
My biggest worry for this is, there’s probably dozens of black hats out there that have found some very large exploit for Windows 10, and are holding off on abusing it until the day Microsoft ends support.
Currently, my plan is to make a partition for Linux Mint, set up dual boot, see how much of my daily computer obsession I can execute through there, and then try to slowly transition while slowly moving stuff from Windows. (I am vaguely worried I’ll run into that Windows issue where files accessed from outside the OS login are security-restricted. That has even screwed up my Windows reformat fixes)
NTFS file reading and writing is reasonably well supported under Linux, though exFAT or native filesystems are preferable. Actually finding software that will understand your files is one level removed, and getting equivalent or even the same software running is another level still. e.g. reading MS Office documents - LibreOffice is pretty good at that. For games, Steam and Proton have a lot of that covered.
If all you do is on websites, most if not all of the usual web browsers are available and work indistinguishably.
That said, I will leave you with these three words: Backups. Backups. Backups.
I’m not worried about interpreting the NTFS filesystem or individual files of given formats. Mainly, I’m worried about a Windows security-level problem I’ve had where Windows restricts access to whole directories based on user-level permissions, since the old “user” that owned them on a given operating system has been obliterated. It’s an issue I’ve had even when reinstalling Windows to the same computer.
As far as I know, Linux ignores NTFS permissions when given raw access to a disk, or rather, acts as thought it’s SYSTEM or some other high-level user, working around anything Windows might have set.
Worst case, you could still move your important files to an exFAT partition (or into an archive) where permissions don’t apply.
As far as I know, Linux ignores NTFS permissions when given raw access to a disk, or rather, acts as thought it’s SYSTEM or some other high-level user, working around anything Windows might have set.
I think that was the case for ntfs-3g.
I’m not certain that’s the case anymore with the new kernel NTFS driver, though I havent tested it. If it isn’t, it should be correctly handling the file premissions.
LMDE6 still uses ntfs-3g as far as I can tell, so I’m going to assume that regular Mint does too.
lsmodreports nothing like ntfs, and the tried and tested, if no longer developed, ntfs-3g suite is installed.Things might change as and when the kernel driver is more stable for writing. I’m sure more bleeding-edge distros are already running the kernel driver, but then, those who run those distros are deep into Linux and NTFS is not really something they deal with regularly.
I believe it actually is used in regular Mint (the Debian kernel doesn’t include it, but it looks like Ubuntu’s and Mint’s do). But yes, I suppose it is still in the process of being adopted by various distributions.
Mint’s sweet I switched from 10 a few months back. Biggest difference is getting use to the different file system, only 2 games have been unplayable (didn’t try to make them work tbh).
PR nightmares will keep significant exploit fixes coming. Microsoft isn’t that stupid.
might be better to separate drives, windows has been known to fuck up Linux partitions recently.
This sounds like something I should be wary of, but it’s the first I’m hearing of it. Any other info?
only anecdotes unfortunately.
It typically happens during updates. People have reported their grub screwing up. If you’re able I would honestly suggest separate drives
Microsoft took a big bite out of GRUB, which is the utility that your motherboard uses to dual boot OSes. A Windows update basically borked it and set Windows as the mandatory default OS. It basically makes it so your motherboard can’t properly identify your Linux install(s).
Luckily, you can fix it directly in Windows Command Prompt. But still, it’s a dirty trick that Microsoft has been using recently. Windows has historically been a bad neighbor for other OSes, (for instance, the Secure Boot Module is basically an attempt to make booting other OSes difficult,) but this was the first time in recent history that they have outright prevented another existing OS from booting.
I haven’t booted into Windows since
Just keep regular full system images (as you should be anyways, as part of your 3-2-1 backup plan), and you’ll be fine as you can just restore an image if everything gets broken.
My what now?
Have my second pc on running Linux mint for about half a year now and it’s been a pleasure so far.
I think I’ll be prepared to switch over fully in a year.
So fucking refuse to switch over to 11
I’m using Linux mint all day at work, while I have a couple of rarely-used Windows machines at home. I think the swap to Linux on those home machines is going to be a winter project this year.
It might be more accurate to say the project will be setting up the Linux version of a few key pieces of software. The actual installation of Linux Mint is the easiest part!
Similar to yourself, I switched to Mint about 9 months ago - initially on dual boot before ditching Windows altogether (the Windows updates kept fucking everything up). For the one piece of software that I missed on Windows 10 (Fugawi Digital Maps) I simply created a Windows 7 VM, that doesn’t connect to the internet, and installed it on there. In fact, it has made me realise just how crap 10 was in comparison to 7. Linux has been a pleasure. Not only has it made computers interesting to me again, but I’ve learned a shitload along the way. It’s nice to have a computer do what I want it to, rather than the other way around.
What do you use to run the VM? I run Mint and have been meaning to get a Windows VM up but there are too many options
VirtualBox.
VirtualBox for me
virt-manager
Thanks, I ended up going with virt-manager and it was relatively easy
I only have one computer that can run 11 because of the TPM module, it upgraded by accident.
All others will run linux
Pretty telling when the only way you can get your users to “upgrade” is by stealth. I wonder what the % of involuntarily upgraded win11 users is vs people who knowingly and willingly did so.
I would’ve upgraded to 11, but either my computer doesn’t support TPM or I just refused to turn it on. So instead I upgraded to Ubuntu. There are probably better distros but I had a limited about of time to fuck around trying them.
Mint is pretty nice, too. It felt familiar, as a windows user. But I kept installing stuff that broke the updater. So I switched and found it’s me, not the updater, and I just need to do
apt update/upgradeanddpkg -iregardless, but anyway now I’m on Ubuntu.I still have my full windows install on an SSD somewhere if I had an emergency, but I haven’t had any such emergency in about a year.
All of the random BS it requires is a bit of a turn off but the 10ish percent drop in gaming performance is a no go. Linux with proton should outperform the os the games are designed to run on but here we are.
Same bruv.
I keep trying but I can’t make Xlink Kai work with Dolphin, nor play using Zerotier for some lan games (tModloader, mostly)… Managed to make my DRG and Gunfire Reborn run, so I got that going for me.
Until I can make those 2 networks work, I’ll have to stay on Windows.
Me too, but im betting windows 10 gets an extension. Microsoft will take too much flack ending support while so many people are still on 10 and too many computers that can’t upgrade are still in use. They’re going for a scare tactic to try and fluff up 11’s numbers a bit before doing it is my guess. 62% of computers are still on 10 right now. They won’t end support.
My steam deck has taught me that I’ll be completely OK running linuxn(probably arch) as my daily driver with a win 11 dual boot (maybe just a vm?) for things that simply won’t work on proton.
Do not use Arch as a daily driver if you are a beginner.
Despite what some people will try to claim, Arch is not stable.
I’ve been daily driving Endeavour OS for a few months now and it’s great. It’s Arch based so there is a learning curve but it’s worth getting over the hump.
Give Bazzite a try if you like Steam OS
SteamOS is not the same as its base Arch Linux. If you want something slightly easier but still Arch-based, try EndeavourOS (but please not Manjaro).
If you have the time, try switching on your own terms within the next year. It’s almost guaranteed you’ll run into issues, but trying to dual-boot now rather than later gives you all the time you need to figure it out before MS forces you on Windows 11.
Fortunately this won’t be my first dance with dual booting Linux, I’ve tried it a half dozen times since the late 90s, going as far back as multibooting booting slackware, nt4 and win98. I’m sure I’ll go through a few distros before settling on one that works for me. I’ve also got 6 drives in my pc (2 nvme, 2 sata ssd and 2 HDD) so I have lots of room to play. One major thing for me is HDR support which is pretty new in Linux so I’m not sure where we stand on that.
Genuine question, what are your criticisms of Manjaro? I’ve been on it since about 2019, and haven’t had any major complaints.
For me, it feels like the best mix of features I’ve found so far. Pacman, AUR, very up-to-date repos, and Archwiki, without a lot of the major PITA manual labor I experienced with Arch. No shade on Arch, I just don’t have time in my life to constantly be tinkering and fixing basic stuff I want to just work.
Curious why some people recommend against Manjaro now.
Manjaro as a project is amateur hour, over and over again. Their practice of holding back packages is bad, causing many version conflict problems. Their software DDOSing repos is bad, they can try to pass the blame to pamac, but they are the ones shipping it. Their repeated inability to keep certificates updated is bad.
EndeavourOS should be recommended over Manjaro every time.
Interesting, I’ll give it a shot on my next rig. Looks like it came out after I’d already gotten comfy with Manjaro.
Can’t say with my use case I’ve run into any of those issues, though the cert stuff sounds kinda gnarly, especially to happen more than once.
It’s hard to argue against “ain’t broke why fix”, and frankly, I’m surprised your install has lasted so long without going sideways heh. If you avoid the AUR that’s probably helped. And I actually do believe manjaro has improved in the last year or two - it’s just difficult to recommend while endeavour and archinstall exist.
You may want to try Arch in a vm before daily driving it. It’s an excellent distro, but vanilla Arch is a far cry from SteamOS.
I’m in a similar boat. There have been some setbacks, but I’ve been planning a desktop build to replace my gaming laptop from 2015 for a long while now. SteamOS has given me the confidence to commit to an AMD build with a Linux OS. I’ve been on the fence between a few distro options though. Maybe mint, maybe Nobara, there have been a few others.
Is it going to be able to run decent games? I’m curious about support for GPUs. I guess VR won’t be a thing for a while.
https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/18A4-1E10-8A94-3DDA
Can confirm VR works!
VR “works”, but as someone who uses it, I can’t reccomend it for now.
Compatibility is wildly different between headsets. And no matter which route you take, you will need to tinker and troubleshoot. There is no plug and play solution right now.
If you want to plug in your VR headset, and just play some games, stick to Windows for now. If you’re fine tinkering around, there’s always SteamVR, but also check out Envision and Monado.
As for desktop games, you can find what works on ProtonDB. Most games work fine, with the exception of games with kernel level anti-cheat.
Win10 LTSC still has quite a few years left.
What’s the point of staying with Windows 10? You’re just pushing the problem further ahead in time. You might as well start leaning Linux now, instead of waiting til you have no other choice.
Some people just need to use Windows you know?
But if you can’t run Windows 11 then you’re on your own once the support for 10 stops…
Ok, but if you need to use Windows then prime telling you “Just install Linux” isn’t a solution.
deleted by creator
Staying on an old and unsecure OS sure is a solution, but it’s incredibly fucking stupid.
At least you could install Linux and use an old Windows version inside a VM instead of running a vulnerable system on bare metal. That way you can still use Windows when you need to.
Windows isn’t any less vulnerable now than 1 week after end of support.
People with exploits available that are unpatched are waiting for that end of support. It increases the value of their unreleased exploit.
QEMU is para-virtualization at near native speeds and supports GPU pass through for ya vidyagames.
Needing Windows isn’t just about video games
Sucks to be you then.
I can only speak for myself, but I have always had bad luck with Linux on desktop. Something always breaks, isn’t compatible, or requires a lengthy installation process involving compiling multiple libraries because no .deb or .rpm is available.
On servers, it’s fantastic. If you count VMs, I have far more Linux installations than Windows. In general, I use Win10 LTSC for anything that requires a GUI and Ubuntu Server for anything that only needs CLI or hosts a web interface.
Try Pop_OS!, it just works.
deleted by creator
Ironic that Windows has become the same way. New functionality is available first as a Powershell command before the GUI control is written. This is because those are two efforts. First you write the function then you need to call the function from a GUI element.
Ironic #2 is that Pop_OS comes with more settings available in the GUI than any other Linux I have used. Maybe you haven’t tried it.
To say no distro can fix is nonsense. Any distro can make new GUI elements and because it’s open source once the work is done other distros can add the same to their own menus.
Just like it has taken Microsoft over a decade to develop the new settings app, they still haven’t achieved feature parity with the control panel. This should make obvious how much hard work is required.
So the solution is that we just need to write more GUI menus for linux and I’m fine with that. It’s nice to have the option to use a menu or edit the text file. Then everyone gets what they want.
deleted by creator
Yes, literally everything you mentioned can be changed in the gui of pop_os. You should really try it before being so confidently incorrect. It’s not a matter of won’t because they already did. They are making improvements all the time.
Most of those CLI instances I had to do on week one.
Since then… Hardly ever. (On Pop_OS!)
At least for me, the whole “made by devs for devs” isn’t really the major downfall. It’s the fact that it can’t be trusted to remain functional in a dynamic environment. I like using the command line, but sometimes that’s just not enough.
If I need a specific software package, I can download the source, compile it, along with the 100 of libraries that they chose not to include in the .tar.gz file, and eventually get it running.
However, when I do an “apt update” and it changes enough, then the binary I compiled earlier is going to stop working. Then I spend hours trying to recompile it along with it’s dependencies, only to find that it doesn’t support some obscure sub-version of a package that got installed along with the latest security updates.
In a static environment, where I will never change settings or install software (like my NAS), it’s perfect. On my desktop PC, I just want it to work well enough so I can tinker with other things. I don’t want to have to troubleshoot why Gnome or KDE isn’t working with my video drivers when all I want to do is launch remote desktop so I can tinker with stuff on a server that I actually want to tinker with.
Might try again. It’s come leaps and bounds in the past few years. I’ve been Linux only for the past few years after dual booting for many and the one thing I miss is game pass. Every game I’ve tried on steam or gog works — often better than on windows.
My experience with Arch and BTRFS has been nothing but great. If my system break I can just roll back a snapshot.
I avoid Debian, Ubuntu or other distros that hold back package versions because that’s where the problem starts in my opinion. I shouldn’t have to use workarounds to install the packages I want. Arch with the AUR just work so far.
Windows Mixed Reality (ie: Windows VR) was deprecated and removed from Windows 11.
So, if you have a WMR VR Set, you’re going to be stuck with Windows 10 (or an even lesser supported Version of windows 11 - v 23H2).
It really sucks, given the price point I’ve throughly enjoying my Odyssey+. I’ve had it for 4 years, but now I’d need to decide if I dual boot (which sucks) or see if another VR headset reaches my price point (which is also dumb, because I don’t find the O+ to be “that bad”).
It’s not available for individual consumers though unless you pirate it, isn’t it? (which makes it perfectly good reason to pirate it)
Pirating it is a bad idea if you’re downloading it from a non-Microsoft source, since malware would be a big risk. That would defeat the purpose of installing a supported OS in the first place. If you download it from Microsoft and use a pirated key maybe that would work, but would you get the security updates?
Are there people downloading Windows copies somewhere else than straight from Microsoft? I haven’t used Windows on my computers in 10 years but back then you installed it in trial mode and then activated / kept it activated with KMS tools.
Type “github MAS” into your favorite search engine.
Oh, how nice of Microsoft to host it!
Good. I happen to know companies that will have to kick out some rather nice machines that happen to be just under spec for Win11. Those machines are still top for running Linux.
Oh no! Anyway, nobody cares but Linux folks looking to prove how much better Linux is.
And tax payers who have to replace perfectly good systems in schools and government offices.
Here in my southeast European shithole I’m not worrying about my tax money, the upgrade is going to be pretty cheap, they’re just going to switch from unlicensed XP to unlicensed Win7.
There will be DOZENS of 10 year old computers that survived 10n years of service in a library or student run orgs. Dozens I tell you!
Let’s fix school funding instead of using it as an edge case to support old ass hardware that can barely hold 10fps in a zoom call.
Windows 10 will have been around for 10 years at that point. That’s a pretty good run. You know another OS that is stopping support after 10 years? Ubuntu 14 LTS, but no one complains about that. People freaked out when Windows 7 went EOL, and XP before that.
XP was kind of a F up for MS, they gave us a really decent OS that raised our expectations. People ran that for almost 2 decades because no one wanted the new OS’s MS was putting out like ME and Vista. Win 8 was out when XP support fully ended and many people chose to go with the older Win 7 because it was less intrusive and more like a PC OS instead of trying to become like a Apple/phone/tablet interface. XP>Win 7>Win 10>Win 11 imo and all the unmentioned weren’t worth upgrading for, but I don’t use my phone for the internet and I’ve been using a PC for over 40 years. We like what’s familiar and we can use without having to think too much about the tool used to achieve what we’re doing. I have Win 11 on a laptop and I have to jump through a lot more hoops to control my desktop, who can pull my info, what can install, what can run in the background. And every update I have to do it again because they add shit back in again along with new stuff I don’t want or need. Win 10 professional at least minimized how often they’d add new stuff or change my existing settings. Win 11 Pro doesn’t seem nearly as friendly.
Ubuntu isn’t as paid as Windows. Also, newer Ubuntu versions don’t need the user to throw their machine away because TPM 2.0 or NPUs are missing. Maybe these are two of the main reasons why nobody is complaining about its EOL.
I just find it fucking hilarious that people expect software to be supported in excess of 10 years, paid or not, when that’s never really been the case over the past 40 years of software. Sure someone will probably come up with an edge case somewhere, but if you developed software, and continually released versions and updates, would you want to maintain a version you released that long ago?
It’s not an expectation of 10 years of software but hardware support. I’m sure people would have upgraded to W11 if they could but unimaginable amount of hardware is going to be stranded for the dubious benefits of TPM 2.0.
Problem is that newer systems aren’t compatible with “old” hardware. So to you know, these computers being disregarded are still functional machines, if it weren’t for Microsoft and other big techs bringing new requirements. What to do with lots of machines that doesn’t have TPM 2.0? Ditch em all, contributing to more e-waste? This thought almost rendered an paralyzed man unable to walk again, as an “old” $100k exoskeleton was deemed “out-of-warranty”.
Well, MS did at one point say Windows 10 would be the last windows and they’d just keep updating it.
Linux booted on a machine from 1971.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/09/hacker-boots-linux-on-intels-first-ever-cpu/
Linux works fine on older machines and can give them new life.
I recently had to use a smart phone that is over 10 years old (Samsung Galaxy S5 mini) and believe it or not, YouTube and Facebook Messenger still worked. It was slow a hell but it still worked fine.
I just used Emacs a little while ago. A piece of software that’s been supported since fucking 1985. There is no technical reason for Windows 11 not to work on a machine that’s only a few years old and ran 10 just fine. It’s literally still the same NT kernel. In the past, you could still upgrade, and your computer might slow down and struggle a bit to run the newer OS, but it did run. This time, for the first time, they are forcibly cutting off older PCs for no good reason other than the TPM bullshit.
Spit out that corporate Kool aid.
Recently decided to try Linux for gaming. It wasn’t without a hitch or two, but largely fine. A number of games I play don’t even need an emulation tool like Proton.
The only reason windows was lying around was for gaming.
Looks like it’ll only get used for flight simulation.
X-plane natively supports Linux, works using proton too.
I’d stoped flying x plane when MSFS came out. Will give it a whirl too.
Have you tried flightgear?
Haven’t. Will check it out! Thanks.
Not a lot of updates in 2024 unfortunately. Is it dead?
https://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/flightgear/ci/next/tree/
This random git repo I picked from their source forge page seems to have some pretty recent commits. I’m guessing they just have a slow release cycle.
It is not. It is open source, there will be updates when there will be updates, they are not pressured by board of directors to release something that doesn’t work.
I suggest checking the discord for more information, including endless stream of screenshots, to get an idea about state of the project.
I have edited the comment above to add link
Wine Is Not an Emulator
(Proton is wine)
Proton uses Wine along with many other technologies
Yes, it’s also not an emulator.
Same here but for sim racing
Barring Gamefreaks games, most of the popular racing games do not support Linux well. Forza 4/5, Asseto Corsa, iRacing, Crew.
deleted by creator
Peripherals. AFAIK Fanatec gear doesn’t run on Linux yet.
There are some drivers: https://jugandoenlinux.com/tutoriales/volantes.html
Thanks for this. I’m kinda concerned about attempting this on my current machine. I’ve got it set up as a music studio PC with Steam as a secondary feature. It works great with all my recording peripherals so I’m hesitant to introduce additional complexity to it with these drivers. I’d like to move away from Win entirely but its not exactly a do or die situation for me right now.
My linux install is on its own SDD separate from Win. I only use WIN for simracing and counter-strike so that use case is very limited. Also I don’t think iRacing’s anti-cheat runs on Linux yet? I’ll have to investigate.
I’m probably one of the last people who use Win 8.1. The only thing I use there is Smart Switch to back up my phone. For everything else, there is Mint. I’ll keep up with that setup until my hardware fails.
Cool, now I can try and remember to get fully migrated to Linux before October next year.
I’ll switch my windows drive to the LTSC IoT version, when this happens. The only reason I have dual boot is for a fallback, if some games make trouble. For example for whatever reason BG3 multiplayer freezes randomly on linux. Single player is fine though. So until I got that sorted out I can fall back to windows. But when even the LTSC support runs out, then that’s it completely for me.
Honestly, i predict people and businesses will keep using Win10 years after it’s become unsafe. We’ve all seen the local warehouse still running WIndows 7, i’m thinking that scenario but for millions of users.
That’s a cypersecurity problem, but what i’m most concerned with is the e-waste problem, because there’s still going to be a lot of users that do replace their PC. There aren’t enough Linux users to buy all the computers that will be rendered obsolete, and there won’t be by then either. I myself am a new Linux user but i’m already covered, i don’t need more computers, not even for cheap.
I just really hope this doesn’t end with millions of good computers landfilled or parted. The third world already buys a lot of our e-waste, so i hope they’ll get a crapton of relatively good computers for cheap and run either WIn10 or Linux
It will legit be a fantastic era for Linux on the desktop though… imagine how cheap we’ll be able to get perfectly good hardware.
I think so too, but like i said there’s only so many computers that you can find a use for.
I think. That wasn’t a challenge, don’t prove me wrong
We’ve all seen the local warehouse still running WIndows 7
Why would they stop? They don’t need the internet. They gain nothing by using a different version of windows.
Most (hopefully all) computers in industry running outdated OSs are disconnected from the internet for that exact reason.
“Switch to Linux” is always the answer but a Nvidia graphics card, Stream Deck, and GoXLR are all things I use every single day, with no official linux support I’m never going to be able to use it as a daily driver. I have plenty of VMs that I run Linux on, but it’s just a non-starter for my day to day gaming rig.
MS should have done what they said and made W10 “the last version of windows” instead of doing the typical corpo bullshit and coming out with an even worse version.
Not trying to make you do something you don;t want to do, but my Nvidia machine is working seemingly perfectly with bazzite, I’d assume the other fedora immutables with different focuses might work as well.
Back in my day it was Lynx 2012 / apocalypse / whatever it was called saying that was the last Lynx they’d ever make. To my annoyance, it turns out they were lying. Although I don’t tend to hang out with the sort of people that blast themselves with Lynx so I guess it makes no difference either way
Dude Tc helicon dropped software support for the GoXLR 1 year ago, indeed the community continuing the support for this device was at first a GoXLR control software for Linux that ,after some time, became a windows app too. https://github.com/GoXLR-on-Linux/GoXLR-Utility
As someone who switched to Linux, and found reasons not to for literal decades, this has helped me:
Have a second ssd in your PC that is untarnished by the windows bootloader.
This way one can easily switch via BIOS / UEFI and no other annoying software.
Dual booting is also less annoying, if you switch via boot menu. It lets you test drive and configure Linux anytime you’re in the headspace for it and reduces pressure on yourself.
Install linux on it. My current favorite for your situation would be Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop Spin (what a mouthful). Have another exfat partitioned usb disk ready for file exchange with windows. Again, this makes handling windows easier, has nothing to do with linux.
Nvidia on fedora works good enough. third party repos also help a lot.
streamdeck is wonderful hardware, I know a friend who uses it daily with streamdeck_ui
- same with GoXLR Configuration Utility. Software is there, the only question is does it work for you.
This is to my knowledge as close to “official” as you can get. Good luck on your journey!
That will be my next plan, 2 NVMe boot disks, but that may not be before next year. I’ve been using PopOS, fedora, and Mint in VMs for about a year now just messing around and getting a handle on the GUI side of things since most of my debian containers are cli only.
I’ll look into GoXLR and Streamdeck plugins again, thank you for that, I looked a while ago and it was a long way from my comfort level, but given the amount of docker/debian I’ve messed with in the last year, that may be attainable now.
Other people pointed out that nvidia and the goxlr have software, but you should know that theres a linux app for the stream deck.
Cant wait to erase windows in October 14 2025 I just need better app support for me idc a out adobe Microsoft office and stuff and roblox I have a few options sober or delete roblox thinking of deleting roblox due to the moderation thing
That was some sentence.
True just my plans and stuff
