My thoughts is that it’s a simple situation really. If they’re harassing or assaulting people, the women will call the cops or something, simple situation and get the guy arrested. If he’s not doing anything, it’s nothing harmful. Apparently that’s not a solid enough answer. What should I have said?
These idiots don’t understand that is assault is assault. It’s not a defense that would work in court. They’re being obtuse to be bigots.
and what is stopping a cis male from doing the same?
Irrelevant but: I, um, did this once. We were at a fancy art gallery. I somehow followed what I thought was a mixed group into what I thought was a general bathroom. I remember thinking what a novel concept to mix bathrooms like this!
It was only afterwards that I realised that, no, this was not a mixed bathroom. No one said anything, but I cringe at myself and at how uncomfortable I must have made people feel.
That is the scenario…
What’s to stop him just walking in anyway?
Don’t live in the US, but in Sweden almost all WCs are gender neutral.
But the scenario is a cis gender male, walking in to a bathroom where he doesn’t belong. And you ask what is stopping him, well in the world where someone is asking you what gender you are, to allow you to go the bathroom; I guess that will be stopping you.
It’s a made up scenario
Nothing, they’re not genuinely interested in a discussion. They’re just trying to pin you with a bad answer and will keep moving the goal post until they think they gotcha.
This. ☝️
It’s best to ignore them. There’s no use getting into an argument with someone who’s disingenuous to start with.
And if they can’t “getchya”, they’ll just stop responding or change the subject without ever acknowledging that you’ve proven your point.
Uhhhhh there are no urinals in the ladies so everyone is in a stall? So???
Does this fella want the ladies to shoot him?
(Using the ladylike Darringer from her pocket book, saying “ah do declare” of course)
The greatest thing in life is those 4 way street uninals.
Well you haven’t lived until you’ve had communal log over an open pit in the woods.
…so manly.
Lol remember the piss troughs from the 1980s? Gaze into another man’s eyes while you pee into a bathtub!
Is there a magical barrier that keeps men who don’t say they’re trans from entering women’s bathrooms?
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The social contract, and the knowledge that it isn’t acceptable and any women inside would likely scream and the man would be perceived as an attempted rapist and would face consequences.
In my experience what happens is you look at each other confusedly for a moment, wondering who is in the wrong restroom. Then you realise there are no urinals so it’s probably the women’s restroom. Then the man leaves a bit embarrassed. Source: Happened to me at least twice (once the signs were really unclear).
None of those things prevented rapists from entering bathrooms before.
The social contract
and the knowledge that it isn’t acceptable
Rapists, well known followers of social contract who only do things that are acceptable…
It’s not concerning at all that this didn’t seem immensely silly and wrong when you typed it…
and any women inside would likely scream
Because if a bathroom allows trans women, women will then be unable to scream while facing an attempted rape?
the man would be perceived as an attempted rapist and would face consequences.
Are you advocating that any man who even accidentally enters a woman’s restroom startling a woman be declared an attempted rapists?
Otherwise, they will be considered an attempted rapist whether trans and allowed in the bathroom or not…when they start doing the attempted rape…
So, no. I don’t think a rapist cares much if they’re perceived as a rapist. And a lot of (maybe most?) rapists know that they probably won’t be convicted even if caught.
Yeah, this is probably the right way to go. There’s actually no bathroom police, for most people. It’s an issue in the first place because when someone is trans people will deputise themselves just to harass them.
A fictitious rapist can only enter women’s bathrooms for raping purposes if they loudly declare that they are trans.
“See I’m trans. You have to let me in here to rape people.”
Oh I see, it’s like bankruptcy.
Unexpected !dundermifflin@lemm.ee
It’s quite interesting to see them make this argument while also claiming that gun control laws can’t possibly work because criminals won’t abide by them.
I guess we need to allow everyone to use any washroom because we need a good man in the women’s washroom to be around to save the women from a bad man in the women’s washroom
Careful, conservatives have historically been against desegregating spaces.
Not if it means white men can go wherever they want!
Nothing.
Nothing is good enough. Gendered bathrooms are about repression. That’s why they are so mad about non-gendered toilets that are popping up.
So all restrooms should be gender free?
Yeah. All private ones are already.
I actually prefer men and women separate restrooms because using the urinals is faster than going in to stalls, which reduces the wait time a bit. Then again, if you have two non gendered restrooms, you’ll get double throughput. Also, it would take a while to get adjusted to seeing both genders in the same restrooms, maybe I’m overthinking it, I’ve heard a university near me has non gendered restrooms only and the students are still adjusting to it.
Apologies if I’m rambling.
I’m trans and the only reason I stopped using urinals is because it freaked the men out too much lol
They’re so convenient! You don’t have to touch them! And it feels like my bladder empties more completely when standing idk
Gender! 👏 Neutral! 👏 Urinals! 👏
Nah you are good.
The thing about this is that men are provided more space for essentials in the workplace, and making men stand to piss means less physically abled people have more trouble operating in that workplace.
So outside the gender ick issues there’s equality reasons that gender neutral toilets are a good thing.
a lot of queer spaces are converting regular bathrooms to gender neutral bathrooms and the signs often say “with urinals”… who cares if there’s a woman using the bathroom while you’re using the urinal?
Meh, urinals are pretty gross and you save pretty marginal amounts of time over quickly sitting down at a toilet
I mean, you could have urinals in one room and then gender-neutral toilets in another room. Urinals and gender neutral toilets are not mutually exclusive I think.
I don’t have gendered restrooms in my house and people seem to navigate those just fine. I feel like it would work for public restrooms too.
I’ve only been in a couple non-gendered communal bathrooms and it was a little odd, but only because I wasn’t used to it. The actual mechanics of it were basically the same as a normal bathroom. Go into a stall and do your business then come out and wash your mitts.
I don’t have a problem with it being the standard. I guess I wouldn’t think it would be a good idea for high schoolers because they’re always in heat.
Thats the thing right. You dont care whos shitting in the stall next to you. You’re busy shitting.
This is (should be) true for any public bathrooms, no matter the sign on the door.
High schoolers have sex in gendered bathrooms to though
Yes. A room with a bunch of stalls and sinks.
European type stalls that is, floor to ceiling, real doors.
Yes.
It would be cheaper to build actual walls in restrooms than to double their size systematically
When I try to recall the few non-gendered public bathrooms I’ve been in, they all had private stalls with real doors. It was nice. I’d be happy if all public bathrooms were like that.
Gendered bathrooms are about repression.
Oh Jesus Christ fuck me. “Help! Help! I’m being oppressed!”
We’re in the middle of making a sensible culture shift. That’s all. I’m 53 and non-gendered toilets have been a thing forever, it just makes sense to make them more common. Some people don’t like that and some people have never been on an airplane.
And some people scream “oppression” at the drop of a hat, making their screams seem far less serious. (Same goes for “racism!”.)
Gendered bathrooms where a godsend for women.
There was a time women couldn’t travel far from their home bathroom. it was called the lavatory leash.
The current problem is bigots and “communal” toilets (in that order), not gendered toilets.
Explain the scare quotes.
Explain why you’re scared of quotes
Illiterate cunt
This has always confused me for years since this “debate” became part of public dialog.
Why don’t we just have all non-gender bathrooms? A friend of mine used to live in an apartment building where the common area had 4 non-gendered bathrooms.
Each had a fold-out changing table, a single toilet, and a sink, so everybody was accommodated. Men, women, non-binary, trans folks, a parent with their baby or young child, and disabled people because the door was wide enough for a wheelchair and the toilets had support bars next to them.
Fully inclusive to everybody, and nicer than the typical restrooms because they were totally private.
I wish all bathrooms were like this. It would be so much easier for me as well as so many other people.
I know right! It feels like one of those rare true win-win scenarios where all parties involved are better off by the change.
You know I still don’t understand the issue people have with this. Every bathroom I’ve been in either has stalls to use with urinals on the side and dividers between those for some privacy, or is only designed for one person at a time anyway. I can’t imagine having any issue with anyone of any gender in those types of bathroom, unless they where being clear creeps and trying to press an eye to a gap in a divide or something. Which isn’t solved by limiting the genders who can enter, it’s solved by building better dividers and not leaving gaps.
This isn’t Rome my dude, we’re not all sitting in one room and having a face to face while we clart.
You made a mistake.
You engaged with someone that wasn’t asking in good faith. The idea itself is so stupid that snagging engaging with it isn’t worth the time and effort.
The only useful response to that question is “are you really that stupid, or do you think I am?”
Its an ancient argument and your answer is correct.
There is no cock check at restroom doors anyone can enter.
Wish there was.
Can’t tell you how many times I’ve went through the embarassment of realizing I left mine at home halfway through a piss.
i’ve understood that coed bathrooms have existed in various places in the country long before republicans decided they were going to create a campaign against transgender people using restrooms. Grow up. Everyone poops!
You should have said “How is that not a solid enough answer?”
I see three broad categories of sexual misconduct a man could get up to in a women’s restroom:
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Sexual assault and/or rape. Since his sex will become very apparent during the act there’s no real disguise needed; avoiding getting caught here is making sure you’re not identifiable to security cameras covering the entrance. Walk in, stand just inside the door.
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In-person voyeurism. Want to get an eyeful in person, see some of that under-stall ankle. I see no functional difference in this case between posing as a trans-woman and posing as a woman. Like what’s even the difference in implementation? You can be slightly lazier with your disguise?
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Installing cameras. Uploading to a shady website or something. Trans-woman is the wrong disguise for this job; you want to pose as a janitor or maintenance worker. Wear a grey jumpsuit with a name sewn to the chest and no one will bat an eye at you taking several trips to carry tools and ladders and shit in there. Drill holes in the wall, run some wire, tamper with the plumbing fixtures. Wear a high vis vest, carry a clipboard, wear a hard hat and walk with purpose and you can bring power tools into places much more secure than a women’s restroom.
I don’t see how trans people existing worsens any risk here, is my point. But it’s not about that, is it?
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If a person presenting as a man enters the womens bathroom and goes to the bathroom and washes their hands and leaves… I would say nothing. Why the fuck do you care?
Hell, I have seen grown men enter the women’s room with their daughters, maybe around 6-7 years old. Old enough that they want to use the big girl toilet, young enough that they need supervision.
You know what happened? Nothing. Nothing happened, because 99% of people don’t actually care if you’re not being a creep.
99% of people don’t actually care if you’re not being a creep.
I don’t think that’s true. I think there’s a lot of women who don’t feel comfortable/safe in a vulnerable space with men around. And even though one mightn’t actually undress outside the individual toilet cubicles, it’s still - to many - that kind of space.
I think it’s important to respect women’s (and men’s) desire for privacy - even when not all women feel the same need for privacy - through this cultural change of who uses what bathroom.
And that goes doubly when you expand beyond a particular subset of America to different cultures and people with different experiences.
I have traveled to very conservative countries and have never found the sort of puritanical hand wringing that comes from a certain subset of Americans.
I say this as an American expat who has lived everywhere from Hawaii to the bible belt, to New York.
Can you imagine the pain and anxiety you would cause a biological woman who does not look feminine enough for your line of reasoning here?
You see her in the restroom and act like she doesn’t belong there - maybe you say something, maybe you keep your “discomfort in your vulnerable place” to yourself, but your stupid ideas about what a woman is and how one should look in order to be accepted into a bathroom are hurtful.
I was in an art class last month with a lovely young woman who has pcos. She is a Sikh woman, and therefore does not remove her facial hair.
She had a beard that would put a young man to shame, and now it occurs to me that had she been unfortunate enough to be born in America, she would have had to choose between honouring the basic tenets of her religion, or conforming so she is not shunned - or worse, assaulted for using the womens room.
https://www.learnreligions.com/some-sikh-women-have-facial-hair-2993341
Can you really expect privacy in the communal area of a bathroom? There’s other people walking around you.
This is not even a good question to argue with, if anyone in the restroom is being a creep it’s not ok and that’s that.
Doesn’t like every game do this now? When I buy a new PC game it’s always connected to their Dev’s own service
