Please remove it if unallowed
I see alot of people in here who get mad at AI generated code and I am wondering why. I wrote a couple of bash scripts with the help of chatGPT and if anything, I think its great.
Now, I obviously didnt tell it to write the entire code by itself. That would be a horrible idea, instead, I would ask it questions along the way and test its output before putting it in my scripts.
I am fairly competent in writing programs. I know how and when to use arrays, loops, functions, conditionals, etc. I just dont know anything about bash’s syntax. Now, I could have used any other languages I knew but chose bash because it made the most sense, that bash is shipped with most linux distros out of the box and one does not have to install another interpreter/compiler for another language. I dont like Bash because of its, dare I say weird syntax but it made the most sense for my purpose so I chose it. Also I have not written anything of this complexity before in Bash, just a bunch of commands in multiple seperate lines so that I dont have to type those one after another. But this one required many rather advanced features. I was not motivated to learn Bash, I just wanted to put my idea into action.
I did start with internet search. But guides I found were lacking. I could not find how to pass values into the function and return from a function easily, or removing trailing slash from directory path or how to loop over array or how to catch errors that occured in previous command or how to seperate letter and number from a string, etc.
That is where chatGPT helped greatly. I would ask chatGPT to write these pieces of code whenever I encountered them, then test its code with various input to see if it works as expected. If not, I would ask it again with what case failed and it would revise the code before I put it in my scripts.
Thanks to chatGPT, someone who has 0 knowledge about bash can write bash easily and quickly that is fairly advanced. I dont think it would take this quick to write what I wrote if I had to do it the old fashioned way, I would eventually write it but it would take far too long. Thanks to chatGPT I can just write all this quickly and forget about it. If I want to learn Bash and am motivated, I would certainly take time to learn it in a nice way.
What do you think? What negative experience do you have with AI chatbots that made you hate them?
A lot of people spent many many nights wasting away at learning some niche arcane knowledge and now are freaking out that a kid out of college can do what they can with a cool new machine. Maybe not fully what they do but 70% there and that makes them so hateful. They’ll pull out all these articles and studies but they’re just afraid to face the reality that their time and life was wasted and how unfair life can be
I have been there, wasted learning stupid things I will never need to know.
Coders are gonna get especially screwed by AI, compared to other industries that were disrupted by leaps in technology.
Look at auto assembly. Look at how many humans used to be involved in that process. Now a lot of the assembly is performed by robotics.
The real sad part is that there’s tons of investment (in terms of time and in terms of money) to become a skilled programmer. Any idiot can read a guide on Python and throw together some functional scripts, but programming isn’t just writing lines of code. That code comes from tons of experience, experiments, and trial and error.
At least auto workers had unions though. Coders don’t have that luxury. As a profession it really had its big boom at a time when people had long since been trained to be skeptical of them.
Who hurt you?
We built a Durable task workflow engine to manage infrastructure and we asked a new hire to add a small feature to it.
I checked on them later and they expressed they were stuck on an aspect of the change.
I could tell the code was ChatGPT. I asked “you wrote this with ChatGPT didn’t you?” And they asked how I could tell.
I explained that ChatGPT doesn’t have the full context and will send you on tangents like it has here.
I gave them the docs to the engine and to the integration point and said "try using only these and ask me questions if you’re stuck for more than 40min.
They went on to become a very strong contributor and no longer uses ChatGPT or copilot.
I’ve tried it myself and it gives me the wrong answers 90% of the time. It could be useful though. If they changed ChatGPT to find and link you docs it finds relevant I would love it but it never does even when asked.
Phind is better about linking sources. I’ve found that generated code sometimes points me in the right direction, but other times it leads me down a rabbit hole of obsolete syntax or other problems.
Ironically, if you already are familiar with the code then you can easily tell where the LLM went wrong and adapt their generated code.
But I don’t use it much because its almost more trouble than its worth.
If the AI was trained on code that people permitted it to be freely shared then go ahead. Taking code and ignoring the software license is largely considered a dick-move, even by people who use AI.
Some people choose a copyleft software license to ensure users have software freedom, and this AI (a math process) circumvents that. [A copyleft license makes it so that you can use the code if you agree to use the same license for the rest of the program - therefore users get the same rights you did]
I hate big tech too, but I’m not really sure how the GPL or MIT licenses (for example) would apply. LLMs don’t really memorize stuff like a database would and there are certain (academic/research) domains that would almost certainly fall under fair use. LLMs aren’t really capable of storing the entire training set, though I admit there are almost certainly edge cases where stuff is taken verbatim.
I’m not advocating for OpenAI by any means, but I’m genuinely skeptical that most copyleft licenses have any stake in this. There’s no static linking or source code distribution happening. Many basic algorithms don’t follow under copyright, and, in practice, stack overflow code is copy/pasted all the time without that being released under any special license.
If your code is on GitHub, it really doesn’t matter what license you provide in the repository – you’ve already agreed to allowing any user to “fork” it for any reason whatsoever.
Be it a complicated neural network or database matters not. It output portions of the code used as input by design.
If you can take GPL code and “not” distribute it via complicated maths then that circumvents it. That won’t do, friendo.
For example, if I ask it to produce python code for addition, which GPL’d library is it drawing from?
I think it’s clear that the fair use doctrine no longer applies when OpenAI turns it into a commercial code assistant, but then it gets a bit trickier when used for research or education purposes, right?
I’m not trying to be obtuse-- I’m an AI researcher who is highly skeptical of AI. I just think the imperfect compression that neural networks use to “store” data is a bit less clear than copy/pasting code wholesale.
would you agree that somebody reading source code and then reimplenting it (assuming no reverse engineering or proprietary source code) would not violate the GPL?
If so, then the argument that these models infringe on right holders seems to hinge on the verbatim argument that their exact work was used without attribution/license requirements. This surely happens sometimes, but is not, in general, a thing these models are capable of since they’re using loss-y compression to “learn” the model parameters. As an additional point, it would be straightforward to then comply with DMCA requests using any number of published “forced forgetting” methods.
Then, that raises a further question.
If I as an academic researcher wanted to make a model that writes code using GPL’d training data, would I be in compliance if I listed the training data and licensed my resulting model under the GPL?
I work for a university and hate big tech as much as anyone on Lemmy. I am just not entirely sure GPL makes sense here. GPL 3 was written because GPL 2 had loopholes that Microsoft exploited and I suspect their lawyers are pretty informed on the topic.
The corresponding training data is the best bet to see what code an input might be copied from. This can apply to humans too. To avoid lawsuits reverse engineering projects use a clean room strategy: requiring contributors to have never seen the original code. This is to argue they can’t possibility be copying, even from memory (an imperfect compression too.
If it doesn’t include GPL code then that can’t violate the GPL. However, OpenAI argue they have to use copyrighted works to make specific AIs (if I recall correctly). Even if legal, that’s still a problem to me.
My understanding is AI generated media can’t be copyrighted as it wasn’t a person being creative - like the monkey selfie copyright dispute.
Yeah. I’m thinking more along the lines of research and open models than anything to do with OpenAI. Fair use, above all else, generally requires that the derivative work not threaten the economic viability of the original and that’s categorically untrue of ChatGPT/Copilot which are marketed and sold as products meant to replace human workers.
The clean room development analogy is definitely an analogy I can get behind, but raises further questions since LLMs are multi stage. Technically, only the tokenization stage will “see” the source code, which is a bit like a “clean room” from the perspective of subsequent stages. When does something stop being just a list of technical requirements and veer into infringement? I’m not sure that line is so clear.
I don’t think the generative copyright thing is so straightforward since the model requires a human agent to generate the input even if the output is deterministic. I know, for example, Microsoft’s Image Generator says that the images fall under creative Commons, which is distinct from public domain given that some rights are withheld. Maybe that won’t hold up in court forever, but Microsoft’s lawyers seem to think it’s a bit more nuanced than “this output can’t be copyrighted”. If it’s not subject to copyright, then what product are they selling? Maybe the court agrees that LLMs and monkeys are the same, but I’m skeptical that that will happen considering how much money these tech companies have poured into it and how much the United States seems to bend over backwards to accommodate tech monopolies and their human rights violations.
Again, I think it’s clear that commerical entities using their market position to eliminate the need for artists and writers is clearly against the spirit of copyright and intellectual property, but I also think there are genuinely interesting questions when it comes to models that are themselves open source or non-commercial.
People are in denial. AI is going to take programmer’s jobs away, and programmers perceive AI as a natural enemy and a threat. That is why they want to discredit it in any way possible.
Honestly, I’ve used chatGPT for a hundred tasks, and it has always resulted in acceptable, good-quality work. I’ve never (!) encountered chatGPT making a grave or major error in any of the questions that I asked it (physics and material sciences).
Personally, I’ve found AI is wrong about 80% of the time for questions I ask it.
It’s essentially just a search engine with cleverbot. If the problem you’re dealing with is esoteric and therefore not easily searchable, AI won’t fare any better.
I think AI would be a lot more useful if it gave a percentage indicating how confident it is in its answers, too. It’s very useless to have it constantly give wrong information as though it is correct.
I use ai, but whenever I do I have to modify it, whether it’s because it gives me errors, is slow, doesn’t fit my current implementation or is going off the wrong foot.
I’ve found it to be extremely helpful in coding. Instead of trying to read huge documentation pages, I can just have a chatbot read it and tell me the answer. My coworker has been wanting to learn Powershell. Using a chatbot, his understanding of the language has greatly improved. A chatbot can not only give you the answer, but it can break down how it reached that conclusion. It can be a very useful learning tool.
It’s great for regurgitating pre written text. For generating new or usable code it’s largely useless. It doesn’t have an actual understanding of what it says. It can recombine information and elements its seen before. But not generate anything truly unique.
That isn’t what the comment you replied to was talking about so that’s why you’re getting downvoted even though some of what you said is right.
The first sentence addressed what they talked about. It’s great as an assistant to cut through documentation to get at what you need. In fact, here’s a recent video from Perry Fractic doing just that with microtext for the C64.
Anything else like having it generate the code itself, it’s more of a liability than an asset. Since it doesn’t really understand what its doing.
Perhaps I should have separated the two thoughts initially? Either way I’ve said my piece.
Yes, me too, you can often ask it to explain it to a layman and it provides pretty easy to follow explanation
Is the explanation accurate?
It could be, in a monkeys with typewriters sort of way… 🤷♂️
I’ve been using it for CLI syntax and code for a while now. It’s not always right but it definitely helps in getting you almost all the way there when it doesn’t. I will continue to use it 😁
When was it wrong? I am curious like how much wrong it was and what AI assistent you asked.
Chatgpt all versions. I don’t know. I use it a lot and I just know it’s been wrong. Powershell comes to mind. And juniper srx syntax. And Alcatel.
It’s really useful to quickly find the parameters to convert something in a specific way using ffmpeg.
Hell yeah it is. So much faster than reading the man pages and stuff
Because most people on Lemmy have never actually had to write code professionally.
As someone who just delved into a related but unfamiliar language for a small project, it was relatively correct and easy to use.
There were a few times it got itself into a weird “loop” where it insisted on doing things in a ridiculous way, but prior knowledge of programming was enough for me to reword and “suggest” different, simpler, solutions.
Would I have ever got to the end of that project without knowledge of programming and my suggestions? Likely, but it would have taken a long time and been worse off code.
The irony is, without help from copilot, I’d have taken at least three times as long.
For me it’s because if the AI does all the work the person “coding” won’t learn anything. Thus when a problem does arise (i.e. the AI not being able to fix a simple mistake it made) no one involved has the means of fixing it.
But I don’t want to learn. I want the machine to free me from tedious tasks I already know how to do. There’s no learning experience in creating a Wordpress plugin or a shell script.
I have seen my friend in this situation
5 bucks says the same outages would have happened with human written code.
All right, I guess I’m here to collect then. We doin’ paypal or what?
People who use LLMs to write code incorrectly perceived their code to be more secure than code written by expert humans.
Hmm, I’m having trouble understanding the syntax of your statement.
Is it
(People who use LLMs to write code incorrectly) (perceived their code to be more secure) (than code written by expert humans.)Or is it
(People who use LLMs to write code) (incorrectly perceived their code to be more secure) (than code written by expert humans.)The “statement” was taken from the study.
We conduct the first large-scale user study examining how users interact with an AI Code assistant to solve a variety of security related tasks across different programming languages. Overall, we find that participants who had access to an AI assistant based on OpenAI’s codex-davinci-002 model wrote significantly less secure code than those without access. Additionally, participants with access to an AI assistant were more likely to believe they wrote secure code than those without access to the AI assistant. Furthermore, we find that participants who trusted the AI less and engaged more with the language and format of their prompts (e.g. re-phrasing, adjusting temperature) provided code with fewer security vulnerabilities. Finally, in order to better inform the design of future AI-based Code assistants, we provide an in-depth analysis of participants’ language and interaction behavior, as well as release our user interface as an instrument to conduct similar studies in the future.
OP was able to write a bash script that works… on his machine 🤷 that’s far from having to review and send code to production either in FOSS or private development.
I also noticed that they were talking about sending arguments to a custom function? That’s like a day-one lesson if you already program. But this was something they couldn’t find in regular search?
Maybe I misunderstood something.
Exactly. If you understand that functions are just commands, then it’s quite easy to extrapolate how to pass arguments to that function:
function my_func () { echo $1 $2 $3 # prints a b c } my_func a b cOnce you understand that core concept, a lot of Bash makes way more sense. Oh, and most of the syntax I provided above is completely unnecessary, because Bash…
Lol.
We literally had an applicant use AI in an interview, failed the same step twice, and at the end we asked how confident they were in their code and they said “100%” (we were hoping they’d say they want time to write tests). Oh, and my coworker and I each found two different bugs just by reading the code. That candidate didn’t move on to the next round. We’ve had applicants write buggy code, but they at least said they’d want to write some test before they were confident, and they didn’t use AI at all.
I thought that was just a one-off, it’s sad if it’s actually more common.
- AI Code suggestions will guide you to making less secure code, not to mention often being lower quality in other ways.
- AI code is designed to look like it fits, not be correct. Sometimes it is correct. Sometimes it’s close but has small errors. Sometimes it looks right but is significantly wrong. Personally I’ve never gotten ChatGPT to write code without significant errors for more than trivially small test cases.
- You aren’t learning as much when you have ChatGPT do it for you, and what you do learn is “this is what chat gpt did and it worked last time” and not “this is what the problem is and last time this is the solution I came up with and this is why that worked”. In the second case you are far better equipped to tackle future problems, which won’t be exactly the same.
All that being said, I do think there is a place for chat GPT in simple queries like asking about syntax for a language you don’t know. But take every answer it gives you with a grain of salt. And if you can find documentation I’d trust that a lot more.
AI Code suggestions will guide you to making less secure code, not to mention often being lower quality in other ways.
This is a PR post from a company selling software.
Yes, I completely forget how to solve that problem 5 minutes after chatGPT writes its solution. So I whole heartedely believe AI is bad for learning
All that being said, I do think there is a place for chat GPT in simple queries like asking about syntax for a language you don’t know.
I am also weary regarding AI and coding but this is actually the first time I used ChatGpt to programm something for a small home project in python, since I never used it. I was positively surprised in how much it could help me getting started. I also learned quite a bit since I always asked for comparison with Java, which I know, and for reasonings why it is that way. I simply also wanted to understand what it puts out. I also only asked for single lines of code rather than generating a whole method, e.g. I want to move a file from X to Y.
The thought of people blindly copying the produced code scares me.
Its not just AI code but AI stuff in general.
It boils down to lemmy having a disproportionate amount of leftist liberal arts college student types. Thats just the reality of this platform.
Those types tend to see AI as a threat to their creative independent business. As well as feeling slighted that their data may have been used to train a model.
Its understandable why lots of people denounce AI out of fear, spite, or ignorance. Its hard to remain fair and open to new technology when its threatening your livelihood and its early foundations may have scraped your data non-consentually for training.
So you’ll see AI hate circle jerk post every couple days from angry people who want to poison models and cheer for the idea that its just trendy nonesense. Dont debate them. Dont argue. Just let them vent and move on with your day.
I see you like when something threatens your livelihood.
Lmao what weird projection is this. As a leftist liberal quality manager, I can tell you’re full of shit
Not really.
- issues with model training sources
- business sending their whole codebase to third party (copilot etc.) instead of local models
- time gain is not that substantial in most case, as the actual “writing code” part is not the part that takes most time, thinking and checking it is
- “chatting” in natural language to describe something that have a precise spec is less efficient than just writing code for most tasks as long as you’re half-competent. We’ve known that since customer/developer meetings have existed.
- the dev have to actually be competent enough to review the changes/output. In a way, “peer reviewing” becomes mandatory; it’s long, can be fastidious, and generated code really needs to be double checked at every corner (talking from experience here; even a generated one-liner can have issues)
- some business thinking that LLM outputs are “good enough”, firing/moving away people that can actually do said review, leading to more issues down the line
- actual debugging of non-trivial problems ends up sending me in a lot of directions, getting a useful output is unreliable at best
- making new things will sometimes confuse LLM, making them a time loss at best, and producing even worst code sometimes
- using code chatbot to help with common, menial tasks is irrelevant, as these tasks have already been done and sort of “optimized out” in library and reusable code. At best you could pull some of this in your own codebase, making it worst to maintain in the long term
Those are the downside I can think of on the top of my head, for having used AI coding assistance (mostly local solutions for privacy reasons). There are upsides too:
- sometimes, it does produce useful output in which I only have to edit a few parts to make it works
- local autocomplete is sometimes almost as useful as the regular contextual autocomplete
- the chatbot turning short code into longer “natural language” explanations can sometimes act as a rubber duck in aiding for debugging
Note the “sometimes”. I don’t have actual numbers because tracking that would be like, hell, but the times it does something actually impressive are rare enough that I still bother my coworker with it when it happens. For most of the downside, it’s not even a matter of the tool becoming better, it’s the usefulness to begin with that’s uncertain. It does, however, come at a large cost (money, privacy in some cases, time, and apparently ecological too) that is not at all outweighed by the rare “gains”.
a lot of your issues are effeciency related which i think can realistically be solved given some time for development cycles to take hold on ai. if they were better all around to whatever standard you think is sufficiently useful, would you then think it would be useful? the other side related thing too is that if it can get that level of competence in coding then it most likely can get just as competant in a variety of other domains too.
