It is truly upsetting to see how few people use password managers. I have witnessed people who always use the same password (and even tell me what it is), people who try to login to accounts but constantly can’t remember which credentials they used, people who store all of their passwords on a text file on their desktop, people who use a password manager but store the master password on Discord, entire tech sectors in companies locked to LastPass, and so much more. One person even told me they were upset that websites wouldn’t tell you password requirements after you create your account, and so they screenshot the requirements every time so they could remember which characters to add to their reused password.
Use a password manager. Whatever solution you think you can come up with is most likely not secure. Computers store a lot of temporary files in places you might not even know how to check, so don’t just stick it in a text file. Use a properly made password manager, such as Bitwarden or KeePassXC. They’re not going to steal your passwords. Store your master password in a safe place or use a passphrase that you can remember. Even using your browser’s password storage is better than nothing. Don’t reuse passwords, use long randomly generated ones.
It’s free, it’s convenient, it takes a few minutes to set up, and its a massive boost in security. No needing to remember passwords. No needing to come up with new passwords. No manually typing passwords. I know I’m preaching to the choir, but if even one of you decides to use a password manager after this then it’s an easy win.
Please, don’t wait. If you aren’t using a password manager right now, take a few minutes. You’ll thank yourself later.
Quick question - what are your opinions on using Firefox’s inbuilt password manager? I’ve installed Bitwarden as an extension, but I find Firefox to be more convenient.
I mostly use FF on Linux, Windows, and Android and have no issues with using FF cross platforms.
Don’t. It’s not in your hand is the simple reason.
My advice is keepassxc. Got a ff-addon that does basically the same. But you have your password-file under your control. And do backups!
What permissions does the extension need to work? Then, what is the maximum level of damage a malicious update to said extension can do with those permissions?
I don’t know. You wouldn’t really need it, if you’re concerned. If you’re fine you can just C&P or even let keepassxc use it’s auto-type. So no addon needed. It’s just more comfortable. And you can never have security AND comfort. Security is absolutely always uncomfortable.
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And I’m not tied to Firefox if, for some reason, I want to stop using it.
Not gonna happen.
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Firefox has an option to set a master password, doesn’t it?
It does
I’m in the same boat. FF is just too damn convenient
Yeah, the used to have the lockwise app, which was awesome, I don’t know why they scrapped it
Firefox password manager is brilliant, my move to Bitwarden wasn’t worth it and I regret it.
people who use a password manager but store the master password on Discord
???
Yeah, true story. Really weird.
I really want to know what the logic behind their thinking was…or maybe they were just lazy? I don’t know, it’s so weird that they’d get to the point of using a password manager but then still make such a basic error.
Marginally better than using discord itself as your password manager (also a true story!)
How does this work? Do they ask other people to remember their passwords?
Some people keep journal servers where it’s just them in a server alone, could be that
yes, it’s that.
is it possible to sync keepassxc between computers + phone?
Yes, but it’s a bit involved to automate it. KeePassXC has a less technical recommendation here
Syncthing has worked well for me between 3 devices(Linux, android, windows). I’ve had one conflict in 6mo and it was easy to identify the right copy to select in keepass’ prompt since the more recent one was a larger file.
Synchthing also provides optional version control which makes backing up easy.
I have it synced across 4 computers and my phone. You just need a central repository. For that I use nextcloud. I suppose you could use OneDrive, Google drive, box, sync thing, or something else though.
A long time ago, I used Syncthing to do this. Sometimes there would be file conflicts, which was a pain to resolve, so I switched to BitWarden (using their server for syncing) and have been using it ever since.
tbh i just keep the master version on my computer and physically transfer it to my phone every so often. i try to avoid using too many password-requiring services on my phone.
i used to do this, until I started using syncthing
i only add password entries on my laptop then sync the file directly to my phone using syncthing to avoid conflict
Yes. The easiest/most reliable is syncthing. Yet there’s the online-component which is inherently vulnerable. Depends on how paranoid you are.
You can lock your password database with a key file (this is a standard feature in keepassxc) and transfer the key file once between devices via sneakernet (microsd or usb drive). That way even if someone intercepts your database file, AND knows your password, it is still virtually impossible to crack. Should be a good enough solution, unless you are quantum-tier paranoid
That is actually a good idea. I’m not using one rn as i only manually transfer it. Might be worth considering. Thanks
What’s frustrating is that most sites want your phone number. Even though it’s less secure than totp, but that sweet sweet data using your phone number as a common index is irresistible
It might not be any more private but I give out my Google voice number to people/businesses I don’t really want to hear from or suspect my data will be sold by.
What’s really frustrating is that some services detect GV (and other VOIP providers) and just say you can’t use it.
True. Even government websites refuse to verify you over a VoIP line.
And best case on an actual separate device.
And if the company doesnt supply one, use your own at your own discretion /shrugAny comments on bit Warden for totp?
Personally I wouldn’t keep my TOTP together with my passwords, but it’s up to you
TOTP is standardised by RFC 6238 so all TOTP clients must comply with the standard and therefore work equally well. Pick the one whose UI you like the most and is otherwise good enough for your use case and personal preferences. It’s similar to arguments over CPU thermal paste—its presence or absence makes a much larger difference than the method of application.
You do, however, want to pick something that is free and open-source and also popular. Google Authenticator (closed source) definitely is a functional TOTP client but you have to trust that the Google engineers have done a good job building a secure app. Since it’s Google, they probably have, but a principle in security is that you should not have to trust more people than absolutely necessary.
You can but shouldnt.
So many folks talking about which software they use, and how they sync it between devices etc.
You all know there are hardware password keepers right? They present to your devices as a usb and/or bluetooth keyboard and just type out the user/password that you select. They have browser plugins to ease the experience. Now your password is not even stored on the device you’re using to perform your login and it will work on any modern device even without internet access.
Oh and no subscription fee to cover the costs of cloud infrastructure.
What happens if it gets lost stolen or broken?
I save copies of the password database in several locations. I have to keep them synchronized manually but that’s preferable to using commercial ones that take turns in getting their data breached.
That will vary from vendor to vendor. In the case of the one I like there are a few relevant things.
The password db is stored encrypted on the device. Accessing the passwords requires all of:
- the device
- a smartcard with a particular secret on it
- the 4 digit hex pin to unlock the secret on said smartcard, which is what is used to decrypt the db
Three PIN failures and the smart card is invalidated.
That sort of covers “stolen” and “lost + recovered by a baddie”. Your bad actor would need to have their hands on both physical pieces and guessed the 4 digit hex code in 3 tries.
As far as a user recovering from a lost or failed device or smart card goes, you can export the encrypted version of the db for backups, which I do to a thumb drive I keep in my document safe. I do the same with a backup smart card. So that and a backup device or purchasing a new one if yours fails or is lost/stolen.
In the super “just in case” move, I also keep a keepassdb on said thumb drive. In case my device fails and it’s just not possible to get a new one. Kind of like keeping two cloud providers in case LastPass goes bankrupt or something.
Hyptothetically, couldnt an attacker clone the smart card and retry on the copies?
I would believe a salted and hashed 0-knowledge password vault is more secure than a US-company which could be forced to surrender private keys used for the encryptionHow would any company, regardless of geography have the secret I generated? This is a stand alone hardware device. They seller is not involved at all once I’ve received my package.
Could a sophisticated/well resourced actor clone the smart card they stole or you lost? Sure, brute force attacks are brute force attacks. At least you’d know your device and card are stolen. Now you’re in a race to reset your passwords before they finish making 500 clones of the smart card they stole.
Hypothetically I could blackmail someone at LastPass and have a backdoor is installed for me.
Someone could bust down my door while I have it connected and unlocked and just login to all my things. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
You lost an arm. Remember to use the
\to escape the markdown ;)I don’t know much of smart cards and the whole hardware based authentication beyond knowing they exist at all so please take my questions for what they are.
I was thinking the encryption on those cards are done with a private key and a writer/reader by the manufacturer (like HID). So if the NSA busts down the door and demands the key you could technically decrypt it.
So if you generate your own private key that vector is obviously mitigated, assuming they are providing the tool with a non-reversible hashing process or a guide on how to generate the key so it wouldn’t aid in the brure forces decryption.Thank you for the info :)
I saw the lack of arm and facepalmed but I was half asleep poo posting so got over it :p (fixed now!)
I’ve been using this device for ~5 years now, so my memory is a little hazy on it, but I’m pretty sure for the particular device I prefer (which is to say, I have nfc what the setup is for other vendors, which could be greatly superior) the AES-256 key used for encryption isn’t generated until you setup your first card.
Curiously enough, I never heard of those. Do you happen to know good ones so I can further check?
I’m a pretty big fan of the mooltipass. They’re sold out and between iterations right now, but a new one is expected soon. One of my coworkers is pretty into their OnlyKey.
Mooltipass looks sick actually. I have my reservations regarding the ble part, but I would have to look into it more to understand it. Might get one to check around how well it works (once availability is there)
I have a password manager with a family plan so my wife can use it. Does she? Absolutely not. And that’s why we don’t share bank accounts.
Same and she has the balls to ask me for passwords!
Same here. Kinda feels good to know I am not alone with this, though.
I blame the tinfoil hat infosec crowd for not understanding that the world they inhabit is not the same one Regular Users live in.
Is there risk in keeping all your passwords in one place, whether it’s on your hardware or someone else’s? hell yes! Is that risk stastically speaking ANYTHING LIKE the risk you take when you use ‘pencil’ for all your passwords because you can’t be arsed to memorize anything more complex? OH HELL YES.
Sure, if you’re defending against nation state level agressors, maybe using a password manager isn’ the wisest choice, but for easily 99% of computer users, we’re at the level of “keeping people from drooling on their shoes”. So password managers are probably a GREAT idea.
So password managers are probably a GREAT idea.
That is, when they can manage to use it.
I feel like password managers are more targeted to companies where sharing and controlling login data shouldnt be logged on some table in an excel sheet.
It just so happens that a manager is also god damn convenient for the private individual
Been using Bitwarden for a couple years now…
No regrets
I’d be open to using a pw manager then I read the comments here and everyone is suggesting different apps, arguing over how inconvenient one or the other it, various issues, etc. It doesn’t make me feel like taking action if everything feels sketchy.
I’m paying for Bitwarden’s Family plan and share it with three friends. It costs me ~80 cents per month and it just works. We are using it for multiple years now and migrated to their new EU servers this year. Bitwarden has everything I need and it’s in my opinion the best bang for your buck. But try out their free option and form your own opinion.
I just tried the free option (bitwarden) and then migrated to Proton to use all of their apps. TOTP support is also an added bonus for the Proton Pass since Authy has fucked off a cliff.
What happened with Authy? (As someone who uses it)
My dad somehow believes that that password managers are very insecure ( he got that from some sort of ‘reputable source’, so me telling him bitwarden is secure doesn’t help) and he just writes down all of his completely randomly generated passwords in a notebook, which always seems really inefficient to me, especially when he writes a character down incorrectly.
Is your dad Ron Swanson? /j
My wife does this with index cards. I have to try to figure out what she wrote down (1? l?) and she crosses out an old one and writes the new one in a random spot so I have to study the card to find the live pw.
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He’s doing something right.
You can’t hack a paper note over the internet.You can’t grep dead trees, password managers are only as secure as their infrastructure which are constantly being backdoored, socially engineered and poorly administered. Anyone that trusts a simple security solution is a fool.
It’s not a hard concept. In almost every well-designed security system, the weakest links are invariably the humans
At least reputable companies do 3rd party audits and I have yet to hear about bitwarden getting pwned.
One of the only possibilities is them and their infrastructure getting ransomedI have yet to hear about bitwarden getting pwned
Honestly this is the part that scares me the most. Well maybe it’s the fact we have multiple plausible scenarios… What happens when you get locked out of bitwarden? I imagine the 256 randomized salted hash passwords will be hard to call, some companies will likely be able to restore your password via phone support. During that time, informed attackers will potentially have the master keys to your entire life. Fighting ai chatbots trying to recall security questions. During that time your phone and Internet service could be shut off, secondary emails changed and validated, money transferred out of bank accounts, stocks and crypto sold. Crowdstrike was a valuable security company.
I mean he’s not wrong about paper being more secure than password manager (provided you have good physical security and trust the people you live with)
Yes, but this is like replacing the front door of your house with a bank vault door. Yes, it’s more secure, but there is a point of “reasonably secure enough” for most people and at some point, you are just inconveniencing yourself for no tangible gain.
Well yeah I guess that’s true
Only until he gets a keylogger on his computer
Personally, I use PassWord123! for everything. It says its a strong and secure password so why wouldn’t I use it for everything?
Its the best one to use, all password hacking tools avoid this one when they’re attacking.
What’s wrong with a password manager built in the browser?
That’s what I’ve resorted to, but I only use Firefox because it has a master password.
Chrome has no master password so what stops any fool from stealing your passwords while you’re taking a piss, I don’t know.
Password managers always cause me headaches, though, and never want to integrate correctly. More trouble than their worth in my estimation.
Honestly nothing. I recommend this to everyone because it is the easiest way to set up and offers huge advantages.
- No more password reuse, per site random passwords.
- Auto-fill reduces chance of phishing attacks work because you get suspicious if the password doesn’t auto-fill.
- Most browsers will integrate it into their sync service to reduce the risk of you losing your passwords.
I think these are the two biggest benefits and every browser password manager will accomplish both.
This is what I do: I use my browser to store all my randomly generated passwords. If I ever need them on my phone I either sync or go to my desktop and view the password and type it over.
so is it bad to store my 2FA backup codes as notes in those same login’s bitwarden entries?
It depends on your threat model. It does mostly reduce the benefit from 2FA, but you are probably still very safe if you use a random password per site. I mostly use 2FA when forced (other than a few high-value accounts) so I don’t worry about it. For most people having a random password which is auto-filled so that you don’t type it into the wrong site is more than sufficient to keep themselves secure.
I do this too. I would need them if I lost my phone, so bitwarden/keepass is a good place for them to be.
I think it is less secure though since someone who somehow has the unencrypted vault without your 2FA device could get in with the codes - but if someone cracks my master password I’m screwed in a whole bunch of ways so I’m not sure it matters too much at that point.
Is there a password manager i can use across ios and windows?
Bitwarden
1password
Pretty much any of them.
Say, what are the chances either
- someone comes to depend on the password manager to get into their accounts, gets locked out of the password manager, and loses access to all their accounts (e.g. using the password manager to create and store passwords they might never have even seen);
or
- their password manager (or account) gets hacked, somehow, and all their accounts get taken at once
As Kramer said. Levels. If tou layer your security 2 becomes a non issue. What you have, what you know, and who you are. Which plays into 1. The 3-2-1 of backup. 3 copies of the data. 2 different media. At least 1 off site. Suprising as it might be, writing a great backup is to write your password down. I have a piece of paper with my password in a lock box in my apartment, in a safety deposit box at my bank, and at my parent’s house
These are real issues however they are pretty easy to mitigate, and I would say that the upsides of a password manager far outweigh the downsides.
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Make sure that you are regularly typing your master password for the first bit. After that you’ll never forget it. You can also help them out by saving a copy of their master password for them at least until they are sure they have memorized it. There are also password managers where you can recovery your account as long as you have the keys cached on at least one device.
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This is far, far outweighed by the risk of password reuse. This is because when a single one of the sites you use gets hacked then people will take that credential list and try it on every other site. So with a password manager there is just one target, without it is one of hundreds of sites where you reused your password. Many password managers also have end-to-end encryption so without your password the sync service can’t be hacked (as it doesn’t have access to your passwords).
Well, what if they somehow manage to get into my password manager account? I mean, it has a login, like any other account. The way to prevent it would be to have a strong enough password. Regardless, if they somehow got my main password, they’d have free access to all my credentials everywhere, and would be able to log into them as easily as I can. I mean, it is easier to secure one account well vs. however many others that the password manager can take care of. But still, a centralised hub with easy access to all my accounts feels like a one-stop shop for taking over my online life
I mean, to myself, I can deal with the consequences of my choices (as much as they can suck sometimes). But recommending stuff to other people I find complicated. I mean, I’ve gotten locked out of accounts due to 2fa (some being old and lost to time, others due to an unlucky series of events and a last minute half-assed backup) and even had to troubleshoot and/or reinstall (Linux) operating systems on my laptop (one instance of which relates to the aforementioned 2fa incident). To recommend something to someone and risk something like that, and be responsible for it… I mean, I once had to help troubleshoot a non-booting Linux machine via messages and photos during lunch out, and I myself am not an expert, so I had to online research from my phone and relay the information
These are all good points. This is why it is important to match your recommendations to the person. For example if I know they have Chrome and a Google account I might just recommend using that. Yes, it isn’t end-to-end encrypted and Google isn’t great for privacy but at least they are already managing logins over all of their devices.
In many cases perfect is the enemy of better. I would rather them use any password manager and unique passwords (even “a text file on their desktop”) than them sticking to one password anywhere because other solutions are too complicated.
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- Ultimitaly its up to the user to remember the master password. I’m not familiar with how bitwarden works, but do use keepssXC. I hear bitwarden is better for less techical people due to having built in account/sync options. (You can also self-host BW if you want)
Keepass is file based, it is up to you to backup the file, for most users putting it an auto-synced cloud drive folder is their best bet. It’s automatic, multi-platform and offsite. Many technical users use sync thing (or equivalent) to manage the file across multiple backup locations.
KeePassXC is essentially a GUI for KeePass datbase, like word and openoffice can both open a .doc file, multiple programs can open a keepass file. If KeePassXC dies, theres others options for opening the file.
That being said, IOS options suck, theres one called Strongbox that is, in my opinion, the best. Its not FOSS like the others. Free version works 100% no problems, but they ask a high $20/yr sub or $90 lifetime for a handful of nonessential features (I’d love an decent alternative if anyone has one).
For Android I like KeepassDX and Keepass2Android.
- Getting hacked is a legitimate concern. However the greatest risk is still duplicate passwords. The time it will take crack an individual database is going to be less well spent than dumping a million username/password sets into a thousand sites and hoping for a match.
Realistically, if you’re the specific target of a hacker going specificaly after your database files you’re best off freezing your credit and bank accounts.
If your database gets hacked, there are a few ways you can midigate the damge, its up to an individual to balance convince and security.
First is 2fa. Keepass works great for TOTP 2fa, with browser integrations, its a breeze signing into sites. If you want more security, you would have a seperate database file with a different master password for 2fa. Now a hacker needs to crack 2 databases.
Another way to midigate the risk is to seperate whatever emails you use from the main bunch, this way if the main databse gets compromised, you won’t lose the emails that let you reset everything else. If the email gets cracked, they won’t have a convient list of accounts to go mess with. Also make sure the emails have all the security and recovery options available setup.
3, bonus round Finally for fincial security, don’t have your credit card saved on every site. I don’t let most of them store it all and use privacy.com for pretty much every thing these days. Set transaction limits on regularly used sites, and set up a “1-time use” card for anythibg irregular.
Even if some brakes into, for example my amazon account, they are going to find a $100 purchase won’t work. I’ll get an email and can just cancel the privacy card for amazon (I’d probably kill them all to be safe) and then work on resecuring everything.
To top it off Privacy.com it self has a dedicated credit card attached with a strict limit to midigate damge.
For privacy.com:
- great for anyone in the USA
- don’t worry about difficult subscription cancellations again, just turn that one’s dedicated card off
- I have personally blown past the daily spend limit of 250$ without issue, idk if that limit is real. The 1000$/mo may be though I’ve never hit that.
- I’ve used privacy.com for everything from Amazon to car insurance to gym memberships.
On credit freezes:
- a freeze means that your consumer report will not be shared, which means applications for credit in your name will be denied
- all USA consumer reporting agencies (data brokers) are legally required to freeze sharing of your reports for free upon your request
- you can temporarily unfreeze when you get a new credit card, apply for rental property, etc.
- don’t let them upsell it or try to direct you to another page with similar language, it is free
- credit monitoring products need to request your report to see if any new accounts have opened. Don’t monitor it, prevent it by freezing the reports
- freezes are required for any data broker, not just credit. This includes LexisNexis (job history), and presumably the ones that do rental and vehicle ownership history though i don’t know their names.
I was talking about the individual card limits that can be set, those definatly work.
Edit, looking my account, I too have 250daily and 1000 monthy limit. The next paragraph might be be outdated?
I know the total daily limit is “adaptive” or something set based on your spending habits. I’d prefer setting the limit myself, but it is what it is.
