However I find myself being disagreed with quite often, mostly for not advocating or cheering violence, “by any means possible” change, or revolutionary tactics. It would seem that I’m not viewed as authentically holding my view unless I advocate extreme, violent, or radical action to accomplish it.
Those seem like two different things to me.
Our current society is based on violence and requires a great deal of it to establish and sustain itself. Are you bothered by this violence?
I think the first question should be what OP considers “violence”. The disagreement start there.
What? Where is this from?
Which part?
Not talking to you but sentence #1
Capitalism is an inherently exploitative system, and only exists because the State enshrines Private Property Rights. Policing in general serves the status quo, which in current society is Capitalist.
Additionally, Communists and Anarchists are regularly murdered by the state, typically internationally, to destabilize this system and maintain corporate profits via super-exploitation.
And what is the future society you propose that is not based on violence, and how are they keeping bad actors from destroying the system that exists afterwards… after capitalism?
I don’t know why you think we’re proposing a society without violence. We’re proposing a society where the working class wields the violence against the capitalist class until the capitalist class ceases to exist.
This is gone over in the most basic Marxist works, especially Engels - socialism utopian and scientific, and Lenin’s state and revolution. Here’s a good overview of it.
Socialism is not an inherently exploitative system, it’s a democratization in the hands of the Workers. Socialism would also not necessitate Imperialism, ie exporting Capital and intentionally underdeveloping countries for cheap foreign labor, which is the modern extreme form of Capitalism.
Policing would be necessary, but rather than existing to maintain classist society, it would exist to maintain classless society.
There’s lots of books on the subject, if you want beginner recommendations I can let you know.
I know this is just a forum and the libs are always confused by nuance, but exploitation does occur in socialist countries, just in a vastly different character and at a much smaller scale. Cuba for instance does have private land owners who employee workers, and China of course has various large corporations.
However these are symptoms of the positions the nations find themselves within. Socialist nations tend to find themselves in the middle of capitalist encirclement. Until the last capitalist is extinguished, class based exploitation will continue to exist.
Completely unbothered.
One of the historically proven and least abstract forms of capitalist violence comes in the inability of any society to opt-out of capitalism–to legislate in opposition to the class interests of capital (the common interests of capitalists not shared by the general public)–even to minor extents.
Even within capitalism, decisions must be made, typically by the state, about who is responsible for property damage and personal afflictions. Capitalism means the private ownership of capital, the funding and property that comprises productive enterprise. Because these enterprises are privately owned, their goals are to a greater or lesser extent divorced from the public good; therefore, it is often in the interest of capital to externalize their costs of doing business–to avoid taking responsibility for the costly circumstances they have caused. Contrariwise, it is in the public interest (championed in theory by the state) to force capital to internalize those costs against their will to externalize.
For example, it was in BP’s interest to minimize the appearance of damaged caused by Deepwater Horizon (e.g. spraying dispersants) and thereby minimize their obligations, while it was in the public’s interest to assess the damages thoroughly and liberally.
When a state decides that certain businesses are causing irreparable harm or have acquired their capital illegitimately, by the same right by which externalities are opposed, the state may expropriate or nationalize a formerly private enterprise. However, history furnishes countless examples of democratic nations attempting to take such action, only to have capital directly solicit the state, some subset of the state (such as the military), other states, or peripheral forces to use violence to extinguish such democratic efforts.
Some famous examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'état
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Coup_d'état_of_1953
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d’%C3%A9tat
Thus, even without reference to the minute-by-minute exploitation of the products of workers’ labor that comprises the most ubiquitous violence of the capitalist mode of production, we have incontrovertible historical proof that the apparent voluntarism of people in capitalism is the voluntarism of slaves choosing to comply rather than suffer violent retribution. In a sense, open revolt would be less violent than peaceful acquiescence because the former is not compelled by hopeless domination.
It is not difficult to add a theoretical basis to the historical evidence. Insofar as it has a single purpose, capital has an unambiguous interest in every state of affairs and every possible outcome. In this way, capital has a subjectivity, an ego, independent of the good of any particular person or group of people. Everything that happens either augments the value of capital, diminishes it, or leaves it unchanged. According to this judgement, capital stands in favor, opposed, or indifferent (respectively) to everything in existence. If the state intends to impose regulation that will cost $X, it is in the interest of any regulated capital to spend up to $X to eliminate that regulation–regardless of the good the regulation might do for society as a whole, including the individuals involved in the operations of the business itself. Such individuals are not free to follow their own judgement, but must always act in the interest of their employer capital or else be replaced by someone who will. If in the extreme case, the state is determined to eliminate a capital, the capital has no choice but to deploy all its resources to oppose that end. In the presence of large businesses (or unions of businesses such as a Chamber of Commerce) with the resources to oppose any existing regulatory agent, this dynamic imposes strict limits on freedom of people to self-govern. The mere presence of capital as capital is enough to guarantee violence if certain norms of political life are violated.
Because businesses are often dedicated to facilitating cultural practices, rather than strictly utilitarian productivity, capital can be a powerfully conservative force in every domain of life.
Alternatively - Have a quote
“There were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.” - Marky Twink
Here on the fediverse we may be getting targeted by outside actors who want nothing more than to foment violence in western democracies.
True leftists reject violence in all forms. It is coercion. It is evil. End of story.
The only time violence is justified 8a in self defense or the defense of others. Political change must be achieved through peaceful means if you want the result to have any chance of enduring.
Anyone on here advocating for violence deaerves to be labeled for what they are: part of the problem with the world today.
Here on the fediverse we may be getting targeted by outside actors who want nothing more than to foment violence in western democracies.
What is the origin of this statement? That people disagree with you, and therefore must be foreign agents? If you go back to the founding of Lemmy, the Marxists and Anarchists were here first. If anything, the influx of Liberals from Reddit can be considered “outside actors.”
True leftists reject violence in all forms. It is coercion. It is evil. End of story.
Are you genuienly saying that Karl Marx was not a “True Leftist?” Kropotkin? Goldman? Fred Hampton? Che? Dessalines?
The only time violence is justified 8a in self defense or the defense of others. Political change must be achieved through peaceful means if you want the result to have any chance of enduring.
Revolution is self-defense against failing and violent Capitalism. Leftists don’t support random acts of terror.
Additionally, Political Change has never been meaningfully achieved via peaceful means. Abolition of Slavery, the Civil Rights Movement, the overthrow of Tsarism in Russia and fascism in Cuba, all stemmed from violence or the implicit threat of violence.
Anyone on here advocating for violence deaerves to be labeled for what they are: part of the problem with the world today.
Do you believe Leftists here support violence for the sake of violence? No, it’s because there is no alternative.
Those “western countries” you’re referring to, are not democracies, its more accurate to call them capitalist dictatorships.
Capitalists stand above and control the political system, stack candidates to those who’ve proven themselves to be good little capitalists puppets, and own the organs of media and limit public discussion to pro-capitalist talking points.
True leftists reject violence in all forms. It is coercion. It is evil. End of story.
Anyone on here advocating for violence deaerves to be labeled for what they are: part of the problem with the world today.
There’s no need to “one-true-leftist” us here, especially since the major branches of leftism (Marxism and most branches of Anarchism), are all pretty much agreed that pacifism doesn’t work, and is a strategy promoted by capitalists and petit-bourgeois idealists to quell dissent. A ruling class has never given up their power or wealth without violence or the threat of violence. Good article on this:
Red Phoenix - Pacifism - How to do the enemy’s job for them. Youtube Audiobook
Is Dessalines the dude that made Jerboa, the Lemmy Client?
Labels don’t matter. Stop worrying about whether people think you are left or right wing. Your beliefs are yours and will continue to evolve and thats all that matters.
Sincerely, A pro revolutionary tactics man.
Socdems are valid if underrepresented. Maybe start a socdem community?
Are SocDems really “left” if they support Capitalism and are against Socialism?
If you define “left” as “communist” then obviously no. But out here in the actual world it usually means “anyone more progressive than a Christian Democrat”.
I define “Left” as a supporter of Socialism, ie an Anticapitalist. Simple as, someone who supports a change in the status quo.
Well then you’re only real disagreement with social democrats is in method, and you are going to have the Ugly Talk.
No, Social Democrats have a different method, ie class colaborationism and Reformism, and a differeny structure, ie Capitalism with welfare, and Imperialism in the Nordic Countries’ cases.
Ah yes, the imperialist Nordic social democrats.
What are you on about exactly?
Look at where H&M or IKEA have most of their factories. Super-exploited wage workers in the global south are funding (via a tax on imports of products they produced) the nordic welfare states.
I suggest reading John Smith - Imperialism in the 21st century for more on this.
As a citzen in a social democracy in Latin America: This shit only truly worked in countries with a long history of exploitation of their colonies.
The Nordic Countries rely on Imperialism, ie the export of industrial and financial Capital to the Global South to super-exploit the proletariat of intentionally underdeveloped countries for super-profits via paying far less for their labor power.
Why is it that it is cheaper to produce in the Global South? Because wages are lower, yet you can sell for a higher price, and therefore exploit at a higher rate from the international proletariat.
Are you familiar in any way with Marxist theory?
O COMMUNISTS, ANARCHISTS, OR ANYONE ELSE CALLING FOR THE OVERTHROW OF SOCIETY
THIS OBVIOUSLY ISN’T MEANT FOR YOU.
lmao so liberals only then.
Yeah lol just validate my clearly very questionable view, you’re only allowed in this thread if you agree with me!
TO COMMUNISTS, ANARCHISTS, OR ANYONE ELSE CALLING FOR THE OVERTHROW OF SOCIETY
THIS OBVIOUSLY ISN’T MEANT FOR YOU.
It takes either a complete lack of self-awareness or a simply incredible amount of gall to ask a yes-no question and then tell all the people most likely to answer one way to zip it. You might as well have just written “la-la-la-la I can’t heaaaar yoooou”
You misunderstand me. It’s simply that it’s a GIVEN that those people would advocate violence. There isn’t any need for them to respond. Their position is known.
It’s like as if I asked if it’s okay to charge over 20% interest on a loan. And all the credit card executives and buy here pay here owners and loan sharks started saying YEAH OF COURSE IT IS!
I kind of already knew where they stood. It’s the same with you.
We’re not advocating violence. Your premise is wrong.
But we know our adversaries commonly use violence, so we’re aware it exists, and we know we have to prepare for it.
Are colonialist governments not violent? How do you remove from office a government that commits violence against their people, en masse, to destroy their land with mining operations?
Concrete example: how would the Congolese vote the French out, when anyone organising peacefully against the French is assassinated?
The point is not violence. But it would be naive to ignore the violence of our adversaries.
The fact that you think communists advocate for violence for its own sake (because you think we’re all bloodthirsty or something), tells us you have no idea what communists views are.
This is an opportunity for you to learn from others, not close your ears because you’ve been inundated with a lifetime of anti-communist propaganda.
You’re asking leftists, the vast majority of which are Revolutionary. Only listening to a minority of Leftists for their opinion and ignoring the majority only gives you an incomplete and biased view.
There isn’t any need for them to respond. Their position is known.
This entire thread is evidence to the fact that you do not have a clue what communists actually think, and yet you still have the arrogance to simply ignore everyone trying to talk to you. Just incredible lol.
Yep, I have no interest at all in living under a communist dictatorship. If see you’ve seen another kind of communism, please let me know what it is. I’d love to be informed about it.
Maybe a lot more violence needs to take place before it works right.
You could try reading literally anything people have sent you (I personally recommended three different books earlier) or you could keep up with your ahistorical vibes based analysis. Up to you champ, just know that you look goofy as shit to everyone who has actually put in the effort to educate themselves.
Yep, I have no interest at all in living under a communist dictatorship. If see you’ve seen another kind of communism, please let me know what it is. I’d love to be informed about it.
PRC, Cuba, USSR, Vietnam, etc. are good examples of societies that were organized along Communist lines, and came with drastic reductions in Poverty and drastic increases in life expectancy and freedom as opposed to previous conditions.
Maybe a lot more violence needs to take place before it works right.
What do you mean?
Yeah yeah, continue to spout your anti-communist propaganda. You already live in a dictatorship, you’re just to propagandized to realize it.
The only dictatorship we want is that of the proletariat, as opposed to the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. That is, a true popular democracy.
Maybe listen to what other people have to say and go read communist theory before saying anything you don’t know about.
As it stands your position is not left in any stretch of the imagination.
I’d love to be informed about it.
that is a blatant lie. this entire thread is a monument to your willful ignorance.
If all those people disagree with you, what kinds of people do you imagine would say yes? Nancy Pelosi? Chelsea Clinton?
Well believe it or not, communists and anarchists are a fairly small minority of the group that would be “the left” if you call the other guys “the right.”
I expect it’s more than two people I could hear from…🙄
Anyway this post sort of answered the question. The violent talk is coming from socialists, communists, and anarchists here on Lemmy, which have a very unified voice and shout down opposition.
Although I’m sure if they had anything they had to actually run (like a country) they’d be an absolute horror show of fighting, arguing, and bloodbathing each other until they got to the point where the strongest survived and could impose their vision of utopia on the masses.
Do you think the Left/Right divide is determined by the absolute median position, or is it determined by actual views, ie a general support for Socialism vs a general support for Capitalism?
Although I’m sure if they had anything they had to actually run (like a country) they’d be an absolute horror show of fighting, arguing, and bloodbathing each other until they got to the point where the strongest survived and could impose their vision of utopia on the masses.
Historically false for pretty much every AES country.
Although I’m sure if they had anything they had to actually run (like a country) they’d be an absolute horror show of fighting, arguing, and bloodbathing each other until they got to the point where the strongest survived and could impose their vision of utopia on the masses.
Meanwhile in the west AOC and Bernie groveled at the feet of the democratic party by endorsing Biden’s genocidal regime and all they got in return was Biden announcing a plan to cap rent increases at 5%, which can only go through if they win the next election… against a fascist candidate who is far ahead of Biden in almost every swing state.
See why we want revolution?
shout down opposition
This is a text forum, you can post or comment as much as you like. People chiming in with similar opinions =/= “shouting down opposition.”
What? What other groups make up the left then? Do they wield political power? Have they ever gotten to wield political power? Because the only left that has ever gotten to wield political power and use it to liberate the working people from capitalist oppression are the ones who were willing to pick up a gun and fight.
What positions do you hold that make you consider yourself left of center?
Excellent question, but I’ll think about it on my own. I’ve had enough go rounds in this post
Yes and no. The answer isn’t straightforward, so let’s unpack it. Primarily, the qualifier “validly” needs investigation.
What is “validity” when it comes to political positions? Is validity a measure of correctness? Is validity a measure of intention?
If validity is a measure of correctness, then yes, you must be revolutionary if you are a Marxist or Anarchist, the two dominant trains of Leftist thought. Fringe positions like Social Reformists exist, though they have never been successful in achieving anything that can be considered long term leftward progress.
If validity is a measure of intention, then no. Not every progressive-minded person has done thorough research into leftist history, theory, and practice. Progressives can have an idea of what end result they want, without yet putting in the work to understand how to get there.
In the body of your text, there are loaded statements. To be Revolutionary isn’t to “celebrate violence,” or believe “by any means necessary.” Revolutionaries do not oppose Reformism, but believe it a lost cause. For a US-centric example, Reformism would be possible if PSL, the Party for Socialism and Liberation, could win elections consistently, but they cannot because of the two-party duopoly, created by Capitalist investment.
By and large, whether someone is a Revolutionary or Reformist doesn’t come down to purity, but knowledge and positions.
I should have just stuck with Democrat, and gotten rid of the whole idea of leftist and liberal.
You can, if you want. If you generally agree with the DNC, labeling yourself a Democrat is a useful label to quickly get your views across. You wouldn’t be a Leftist, since the goals and views of the DNC are a maintaining of the Capitalist status quo, but you would be a Liberal, if you want a non-party label to use instead.
I do think familiarizing yourself with Leftist theory would help you make sense of where Leftists are coming from.
Hey OP. Please look up the “Stonewall riots”.
Directly fighting against the forces that are making & enforcing laws that can & will do harm is the right thing to do. If the people in power / enforcing unfair practices see they are unopposed, they will become stronger in their positions. Complacency allows imbalance.
Will I break windows for Gaza? No. I will not. Who will that help? Who am I fighting? That kind of thing is nonsense.
Will I fight police that are attacking students for protesting? YES. YES I WILL. Because if you fight back, they will understand that you will not allow yourself to be walked all over by unjust enforcement. They will think twice about attacking students next time, because they know people are willing to fight back. If they do not encounter opposition, they know they are safe to do whatever they want.
In short: once a bully realizes that you will hit back, they are less inclined to bully you. Even more so if you are backed up by more people who also hate the bully.
Good sane take, to my understanding
This is everyone’s take here.
I think it’s all about how it’s said. The simpler, the better. Phrasing is important, too.
Political spectrum of Left-Center-Right is not only pointless but very much harmful.
You have some goals in common with other people but you disagree on the means of achieving them. That’s it. Doesn’t make any of the views less valid. It makes them opposed in some circumstances, which is different from “validity”
@Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.com This highlights the problem with using relative terms like ‘left’ and ‘center’ and ‘far’. They’re subjective, and in my opinion, shouldn’t be used.
I don’t know what country or society you’re in. “Left” can often mean anything from centrist liberalism (Democrat Party) to nothing less than socialism (socialists often consider liberalism to be in the center). Then you get literal Fascists (as in, Mussolini and Mosley types, unlike Nazi fascists) who throw a stone in the whole thing: their heritage comes from both the traditional left (namely syndicalism) and the right (ultranationalism), and don’t neatly fit into progressive or regressive (BUF notably gained many women supporters for their pro-suffrage policies, progressive at the time).
One can avoid arguments like in the OP just by learning the proper terms for political views and ideologies. Are you a progressive liberalist? Are you a social democrat? Are you a democratic socialist? (yes unfortunately those two get confusing)
For more information about the political compass and examples of why it’s not a useful tool, I recommend this video.
Thanks, very good reply.
Someone on here told me earlier I wasn’t left enough when I posted a Karl Marx quote lol
Oof. That’s a tough audience.
Do you wish to stop capitalism? Do you think the bourgeoisie will willingly give up their cushy lives and positions of power?
No?
If that’s “no” to the first part, you’re simply not a leftist. If that’s “no” to the second part, welcome to team violence.
If someone lives like a king, but directly because their wealth is earned by the suffering and death of thousands, is it not morally just to stop them? At what point is the life of one billionaire worth more than the life of the, say, five hundred children that starved to death because of that billionaire? Is the system of economics that results in that not utterly reprehensible?
We want capitalism to stop killing people. It cannot stop killing people. So we must dismantle capitalism. But the bourgeoisie will defend, violently, the perpetuation of capitalism. Thus, they are taking on a direct moral responsibility for the deaths capitalism causes.
Revolution is only violent because capitalists wield violence to brutally suppress even peaceful protests, and we must respond in kind to defend ourselves. The violence of self-defense is not the same as the violence of oppressors. If the capitalists saw peaceful protests and willingly put their fortunes aside and returned their means of production to common ownership, there would be no need for revolution. But in all history of this struggle they’ve chosen instead to maim and murder protestors.
As a snapshot, Food Not Bombs are an anarchist group who do nothing but give food to the unhoused. Police will arrest every FNB member to stop them, when what they’re doing is literally just feeding the poor. But if FNB members carry firearms, police leave them alone, and the unhoused receive food.
It’s not about left or right, it’s about socialism or liberalism
If calling yourself a leftist makes you feel better, feel free to do so, but don’t get angry when people call out your actual position
if you agree with the aims of revolutionaries (a more just society) but disagree with their methods (violent revolution) then you need to prove your method is at least as effective as theirs
thus far, no such evidence exists. all societal progress has come at the expense of bloodshed. perhaps you’ll be the one to change that, but i very sincerely doubt it.
so to answer your question, yes.
I make one “sort of” exception for Czechoslovakia. I regard it as the only time a country became socialist by voting on it, but they had to do a coup with the implicit threat of violence to enforce the new government. The communists won a plurality in 1946 and had a coalition government. Fearing that they’d lose power, they began stacking the cops and courts with ideological communists. This fear turned out to be true after the liberal parties kept doing sneaky tactics to undermine the socialists. So in 1948 the communists had a coup to consolidate power and ally with the USSR.
And I know this wasn’t “bloodless” or “civil” since this all happened in the shadow of WW2.
excellent historical context comrade. :3
they had to do a coup with the implicit threat of violence to enforce the new government
OP would do well to pay attention to this bit in particular as (a version of) this basic framework is also how civil rights groups like the suffragettes and the err civil rights movement progressed their struggles. MLK et al were able to be nonviolent because the implicit threat of more radical black nationalist groups existed. without the backing of force nonviolent protest is easy to ignore by those in power, as we’ve seen with every left-leaning protest movement since the collapse of the USSR
