I keep seeing videos lately of grown men posing as children online and baiting individuals to public spaces and either assaulting them or recording/exposing them for content. While I don’t mind the idea of a predator being outed, the idea of grown adults posing as children online seems unsavory to me. Especially if their end goal isn’t to protect children, and is to provide content for views.
Obviously, being a child predator is wildly immoral and illegal and their actions are not what’s being debated.
Yes, it does. (I hope it goes without saying that I believe pedophilia is wrong.) Vigilantism in general really rubs me the wrong way, but people using it for views (the same way they might use feeding homeless for views) is just really disgusting to me. Many “sting” type operations seem odd to me. Like, if someone’s partner has a friend try and seduce their partner and they end up trying to cheat, but they never actually cheated in any context other than that, I think most people (or at least a lot) would agree that’s a shitty test to put your partner through. I view this in a similar way.
My opinion changes a little when it’s law enforcement doing it and they know the person they’re setting up the operation against has actually done the crimes they’re trying to catch them in. What bothers me the most is when the person that gets caught (be it for pedophilia, buying drugs, prostitution, whatever) hasn’t engaged in those things before. It’s very difficult to me to view that as anything other than entrapment for what was (effectively) a victimless crime. (Because they didn’t actually do the thing they got caught for.)
But, regardless of how I feel about law enforcement doing it, I definitely don’t like vigilantes doing it. Especially for views.
I think the thing I hate the most about these types of discussions is that pointing out things like this often get reduced to “defending pedophiles.” Like, I’m sorry I don’t think we should have extrajudicial beatings of people.
It reminds me of that operation where some vigilantes attempted to buy child prostitutes to save them, but over half of the children they “rescued” were abducted because of the demand the vigilantes generated. And I don’t think any of them ended back up with the families they were taken from. This is a very different scenario, but it helps illustrate how careless vigilantes can cause more problems than they solve.
If we had a Justice system instead of a Legal system it may be. But there is no justice in the system when money or power start to show their faces.
The only justice left is the justice you can take yourself.
Arguing mobb justice over our legal system is just dumb. We had mobb justice during Jim crow and how did that turn out?
You do you, but you’re not overthrowing the fascists installing themselves with non vioence. Never happened in history.
but you’re not overthrowing the fascists installing themselves with non vioence.
That’s also not what this conversation is about.
The alternative to vigilantism is letting the courts and cops handle it. The courts and cops have been filled with those people. It’s exactly what this conversation is about. If the system was just there would be no need for external actions. That was the idea of the first sentence of my first comment.
Solving violence with violence doesn’t ever work.
To quote Bayard Rustin: “If we desire a society of peace, then we cannot achieve such a society through violence. If we desire a society without discrimination, then we must not discriminate against anyone in the process of building this society. If we desire a society that is democratic, then democracy must become a means as well as an end.”
Solving violence with violence is literally what the government does as soon as it’s at an impass. Weather its cops, military, or politicians vioence is how the world currently works, people just freak out when its not their state doing the violence. The state often times ‘solves’ even non violence with violence. How were the recent protestors cleared off college campuses for a softball example? Private individuals are far easier to hold accountable than cops as is consistently proven in court. If you’re worried about unaccountable violence, look first to the state.
I feel you. It sounds like you’re saying “the way the world currently works” is broken. So why do more of the same and keep it that way? The world needs a new way to work. Let the old way die out, emulate a new way.
Are you Ted Kaczinski?
Is that the only reason you’d beat up a pedophile?
No
It’s the same as seeing a person rob an elderly person in the street, and kicking the shit out of them.
If they didn’t rob the person or have a sexual conversation with someone who might be a minor, there would be nothing to expose.
I guess that is one way to look at it. They never actually talked to a minor, just were led to believe they did. Still scummy fucks, but technically never committed a crime in that instance.
Conspiraing to commit crimes is a thing you can be charged for. Few if any people get away with crimes they planned just because they got stopped before they can do them.
It’s the same as seeing a person rob an elderly person in the street, and kicking the shit out of them.
Not really, because it’s not a random occurrence, but one they’re actively trying to bait. It’s more like dressing someone up as an elderly person with a clearly visible full wallet and having them walk laps through a dangerous neighborhood until someone tried to rob them.
So unless someone was willing to rob an old person, this wouldn’t be a problem.
Opportunity makes the thief. These people are intentionally trying to get people to commit a crime that might have never otherwise have happened, just so they can beat someone up and/or create content for their channels. That is morally wrong.
People have agency dude.
That goes for both sides. If that agency leads you to provoke a crime and beat someone up for content, that’s pretty fucked up.
Yeah if someone needs an ulterior motive to beat up a pedo, they are the gross one.
They should do it without fanfare and showmanship.
This happened to someone I know.
Don’t know the full details, but apparently he ended up going to prison for it even though nothing actually happened, as obviously there wasn’t an actual child involved.
He’s kind of a fuck up, but mostly just kinda stupid and with an alcohol problem.
Is he a predator and therefore one of the most evil people on the planet? I don’t think so.
He’s a fuck up who’s never had success with women, and someone reached out and was kind and interested in him.
idk how to feel about it tbh. I know a lot of people online will just blanket say he’s a monster, but it’s different when it’s a real person you know.
I’ve got a fuck up friend who goes for young women because he is actually on their level. Legal young, but young. He would easily respond to a pretty 15 yo without asking for age.
Yeah I don’t like it. In the same way that I don’t like people filming themselves giving money to homeless people.
The way I’ve seen it being done it certainly is. They care more about their viewer counts than punishing wrongdoers so much so they quite often accuse innocent people and then harass them based on incorrect assumptions instead of actual hard evidence which they could have taken to the authorities if they actually had it.
I am pretty for vigilantism; but only if they are even more thorough in their investigation than the police to be absolutely sure they get the right person. Which only seems to happen in fiction.
Kill people. If anyone asks, those people were pedophiles.
What
If the vigilante thing becomes a thing, you could fabricate your way through whatever murder you want.
Just pull a Rittenhouse. Show up with a gun and wave it around until someone tries to disarm you, now you fear for your life and can shit them.
I’m hoping those downvotes are from people who aren’t clever enough to understand I was making a point of how bad that all is.
Here’s my take:
the people profiting off shows and podcasts where they do this sort of thing are absolutely immoral, bordering on outright bad. Evil is a bit too intense, but you get the idea. Unless they’re donating any revenue to help children, then they’re shitty.
The people doing the baiting are only immoral IN MY OPINION if they are the ones to initiate things. If they sit back and passively respond while the guy starts sending dick pics and suggesting they meet to have sex, then it’s not immoral in my opinion. When they go into a conversation with “I’m a minor, let’s meet for [REDACTED]” then it’s still wrong.
Of course, on the other side of the screen, the guy either suggesting or agreeing with meeting up is clearly always in the wrong.
Both parties involved can be in the wrong.
As a child, I was preyed upon by an adult.
To me, people making content doing this kind of “hunter” shit is vile. The victims are real children, and you’re using them & their pain to fuel your ego and hero complex? For “”“entertainment”“”? And they’re monetizing it?? Disgusting.
If you’re going to be a vigilante, be quiet and anonymous about it. And be absolutely certain about everything that had occurred.
I still wish someone had gone after my abuser, even after all these years. It would have given me peace knowing that they are no longer out there.
The victims are real children, and you’re using them & their pain to fuel your ego and hero complex?
Yeah… this.
Where are these (supposed) “hunters” when the politicians they support starts stripping away child labor laws and/or advocating for the right to marry children?
It feels gross that child rape is compelling stakes for TV entertainment.
That’s why you don’t like it. Because at the end of the day, this content isn’t being produced to save kids, it’s so you have something to watch on a Tuesday.
But they acted on their desire though. How would you know if they haven’t before?
Would you rather children be used as the bait?
That’s a false dichotomy. I’d rather they not have to do it at all.
While I don’t mind the idea of a predator being outed, the idea of grown adults posing as children online seems unsavory to me.
It’s what you said.
Mate, nothing in that sentence suggests they want children to be used as bait
That’s not how I read it.
Vigilantism is never the answer. In pretty much every case the vigilante has far less noble motivations than they claim to have. Just look at the constant screeching about “groomers” by US conservatives.
There’s an element of this that feels like it’s operating under the assumption that someone will assault a different child if not the adult posing as one that makes me a little uncomfortable. It’s a sort of Kantian outlook, but there’s a part of me that wonders if those predators would find another target if the decoy “child” wasn’t presented to them.
On the other hand, I imagine that the answer to that question is “Yes. This is an abuser actively hunting for a target.” and that assuages some of the concern.
Them doing it for views and content is also upsetting, but that’s the nature of living in a capitalist world. Everything, even justice, can and will be commodified and sold into a perversion of its original intent and goal.
there’s a part of me that wonders if those predators would find another target if the decoy “child” wasn’t presented to them
If these idiots are meeting kids to try to abuse at a Wal-Mart, they are more than likely not smart enough to entice actual minors in other settings.
The question is, would these people be predators if people didn’t bait them into it? If they are doing this for “content” or some sense of moral judgement, then they have an incentive to push people into these things more than they originally would.
I can imagine the following scenario being common (to the point at which I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a tutorial for it somewhere):
- Find someone online who has serious mental health problems or cognitive impairment.
- Emotionally manipulate them into saying or doing something nasty that they wouldn’t otherwise do.
- Invite them somewhere public and humiliate then online for content.
- Congratulations! Not only have you managed to ruin someone’s life, you’ve done it in a way that you get to feel morally superior as well.
Target some marginalised group as well, and you can also justify hatred towards them and show everyone that your group is better!
The question is, would these people be predators if people didn’t bait them into it?
The CIA has been doing this ever since 9/11 - “baiting” cognitively impaired people into doing “terrorism.”
A lot of the people they bait do not seem as if they are cognitively competent
THAT is different. Bullying a mentally disabled person is the wrong thing.
The caregiver for the person should be involved in their online activities if they are vulnerable. They should also be taught about being safe online.
