I (22M, straight) have never tried dating women due to gender roles. There is nothing that turns me off more than an unequal partnership where I’m pigeonholed into being some stoic protector who never cries, never needs comfort, doesn’t like “girly” things, and always leads affection and intimacy.
You know what I like? When a woman is strong, confident, playful, and comforting, but is also down-to-earth and vulnerable. Someone I could take turns caring for and being cared for by, pursuing and being pursued by her. I don’t want some stupid power dynamic; I want us to be like best friends, equals with matching vibes who care for and comfort one another. And for us to have lots of fun together: foam sword fights in the living room, baking cakes together despite neither of us knowing what we’re doing, having goofy staring contests… whimsical and silly stuff like that.
There is absolutely no room for gender roles in my life because I want us to feel like buddies, not the infallible chivalrous knight and the small vulnerable one. I see the opposite genders as complements that equally embody both strength and vulnerability. Hell, there’s not even any room in my life for this serious adult facade everyone seems to put on. Having adult responsibilities doesn’t mean I also have to act all serious and sophisticated. No, I’m going to be silly because we have only a finite amount of time on this earth and I’m going to use it to make people laugh and smile.
The Internet has made me disillusioned with the idea of a relationship because gender roles are constantly reinforced. “If you show your emotions to a woman she’ll use them against you later” or “If you cry in front of a girl she’ll break up with you” or “Guys who are too feminine give me the ick”. Often some variation of “If you want a girlfriend, you have to maintain the image of a strong stoic hero, and the moment that illusion is shattered, you’re fucked.”
That’s why, as soon as I realized what my attractions were, I immediately wrote off the possibility of ever fulfilling them because they didn’t fit a patriarchal world, and I saw the idea of trying to force myself into that world as torture. I had somehow “fallen out” of gender roles and was attracted to equality instead of hierarchy. I didn’t want to be “manly,” I wanted to be adorable, playful, caring, and sweet, and I was attracted to those exact qualities in women. Once I developed chronic health conditions and physical limitations, the idea of me being strong and infallible became even more unattainable.
I’m interested in hearing others’ experiences in navigating this. I really want to believe that equal straight relationships can be found, but I am surrounded by an information ecosystem that mostly points to their nonexistence, tainted by universal gender expectations.
Honestly, the fact that there isn’t an “incel” subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn’t patriarchal enough makes me wonder if most guys with this issue: (1) don’t have the self-awareness or courage to post about it, (2) enter relationships where they spend their entire lifetime in hell suppressing their personality, or (3) actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.
Not a certainty. But realistically, just like most men are socialized to be masculine and fulfill the traditional roles that come with that, most women are socialized to be feminine. You can unlearn that though, and maybe part of what you should try to understand about yourself is why you “fell out” of the patriarchal conditioning and look for friends/partners that are doing that sort of work too. Good luck
I’d check your algorithm here honestly. On the female side I get men who are ONLY interested in that type of dynamic and don’t know how to wipe their ass—I know it isn’t accurate, but the internet insists I see it sometimes. I’m older and I can confirm most of us just want equal partnerships and independent adults. That said, in your early twenties you will encounter a fair amount of emotionally immature individuals. And people who have been groomed by their families and algorithms into gender roles as well. It isn’t hopeless, but it is getting more difficult.
Honestly, judging by the responses here, it really seems like my social anxiety selectively absorbed negative information and created a self-defeating worldview based on inflammatory social media posts. I really need to take a hard look at what I’m consuming and ask myself if it’s really worth it.
It’s embarrassing to be this wrong, but I’m grateful that I have this community to help me understand that this is a self-imposed social dysfunction rather than a legitimate worldview. It’s just fear.
At least you’ve been embarrassingly wrong in a case where consequences are minimal. Also, you’ve taken in this information to make changes to your life in a mature way.
Also, you’ve taken in this information to make changes to your life in a mature way.
This is the biggest thing. So many times I’ve seen someone post the most batshit crazy ideas you can imagine, and walk away thinking “These thousands of people who say otherwise obviously don’t know what they’re talking about.”
Just by realizing this and making this comment honestly says a lot about you. A lot of good, that is. I’m rooting for you, OP, and I hope you eventually find a healthy relationship. :)
Who’s going to be doing this railroading? It’s going to be up to you and whoever you decide to have a relationship with to decide what your roles in the relationship will be. When I started getting serious with my partner (now cohabitating over a decade and going strong), we both thought we were cishet little ex-christians. But we were buddies from the start, and that hasn’t changed even when we started to question our gender identities. For all I know, it may have been the fact that we were in a stable, loving relationship for the first time in both our lives that made it safe enough to start exploring that aspect of ourselves. I know for us it took (is taking…) a while. I loved them when they thought they were a woman, I love them now as their NB self, and if they discover more about their gender identity I’ll love them then. We’re still, and will hopefully always be, partners and best buds.
So if you want to try being in a relationship with a girl, find a girl you like, and love her.
A practical addendum to that last point: I am eternally grateful that I am too old to have had to deal with the current landscape of app-based dating, so I am definitely commenting on something out of my experience, but I would advise trying to meet people in real life and make non-romantic friends, rather than “trying to date”. Book clubs, Ultimate frisbee leagues, activism groups, etc. I met my partner doing community theater. I think if you want to find someone you can be friends with as well as partners, you have to try being just friends first. And it doesn’t always progress beyond that, and sometimes that sucks like a bastard. But I still think it’s better than the alternative methods I’ve seen.
It’s not worth it if you’re going to be railroaded into a gender role, no.
But that an IF, not a certainty. A relationship with a partner who treats you as an equal and an individual IS worth it. You gotta find the right person for that.
actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, despite popular narratives.
This might come as a shock to you, but women have been complaining that men pigeonhole themselves into gender roles for decades, and many, if not most of them, would love a guy who is sweeter, not afraid to show their emotions, and is caring and intimate.
Sadly tho, there quite a few are examples of men doing just that and shortly after being broken up with
Sure, and those are the examples we talk about because it’s interesting or frustrating. When a husband opens up about their feelings and their wife accepts that and supports them, it doesn’t end up on social media.
What ends up on social media is the man finishing his 20 or 30 year old coil of wire, coming to realize how times flowing and his mortality, and having his wife mock him and then post it online for others to do the same.
I know a bunch of people in happy cis-hetero relationships where there is no bs going on with traditional gender role expactations. A dear friend of mine is a super sweet, sensitive and emotionally open cis-lad. He and his wife are super happy together. He’s got pink hair, dresses pretty funky and is super adorable while his wife is more on the butch side with a healthy ‘let’s do this’ hands on mentality and a nice butch look. That’s just one exampel. Almost all my hetero lady friends go for emotionally open and cute lads. Just be yourself, find the right person to date and be happy together.
Your assumption that all women are looking for a relationship that aligns with traditional gender roles is antithetical to your view of women as equals. I’m not trying to be inflammatory, I’m just nudging you towards the conclusion that people that talk about traditional expectations in a relationship don’t really speak for everyone. It also seems like a lot of your evidence comes from male voices, which I don’t think is an accurate reflection of what women want in a relationship. It sounds to me like these are the conclusions of the circles that you hang around in (or the culture that you live in/grew up in) rather than a fact of life. Most of the women I know are either in the types of relationships you are describing or vocally advocate for finding that type of relationship. There are both women and men that haven’t evaluated the impact of patriarchal male expectations, and so there are both men and women out there that knowingly and unknowingly perpetuate the stereotype of men as unfeeling and uncaring. But to say that all men and all women think this way is probably inaccurate.
It sounds like you know what you want in a relationship and what activities make you happy regardless of whether they traditionally fit with a certain traditional gender expression, so do those things. I know it’s demoralising to feel like the odd one out, but even if you live in a particularly conservative country there will always be like-minded people /somewhere/ out there.
Stay off the internet
I was married for many years
I’m engaged to a wonderful woman right now
I have never been bothered with the gender roles of which you speak whatsoever
I just do my thing and don’t really give a fuck what society thinks, but it’s helped that I’m lucky enough to not live in the toxic wasteland of 'Murica
If you are getting all this pressure from what you see on the internet, I’d say that the algorithm is doing its job, because you’re engaged with it by being angry
You choose what you spend energy on and I don’t think you’re choosing well right now.
(3) actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.
This is the answer.
You absolutely have to get the fuck off the internet to get an idea of what people are actually like. Most of the shit you’re seeing isn’t even written by humans anymore, and even what is real tends to be the craziest 1% of the population, because they say the crazy things that drive engagement and feed the algorithm.
There’s no one way people are, there is more diversity and variety around you than you can possibly imagine. It’s not necessarily easy to find somebody you’re going to gel with, but I promise you they are all over the place.
Here’s my advice as someone who basically could have written this post when I was your age (I’m now 30)
You can absolutely find a partner who wants to be free from gender expectations and find a relationship like you describe (I did!), but it will be extremely hard to find if you don’t put yourself out there and get used to sorting through the majority who are satisfied with gender roles.
The most important things imo are to 1. Keep putting yourself out there when you have the energy. 2. Take breaks if you have to, don’t let the experience make you jaded or let that frustration affect how you treat others because that’s an easy way to repel someone who would otherwise be a great match. 3. Keep being yourself, don’t be afraid to showcase the ways in which you are not traditionally masculine. I literally put a picture of myself in a maid outfit on tinder and I get quite a few compliments. You’ll only repel the people you don’t want and it’ll be like a beacon to attract those who view gender roles in the same way that you do.
To your last point, I would guess a lot of guys probably live quietly unhappy. But plenty have found accepting partners and social circles who are open minded about identity and gender expression.
I have often said that for me successful dating is not about getting to date lots of people, but about quickly filtering out the people who don’t work for me and filtering the people who do.
For OP, a lot of pan/bi sexual people already reject strict gender roles, and may be more open to a relationship like you’re seeking.
At the risk of sounding like a boomer - as long as you let algorithms decide what your expectations of both yourself and any potential partner are, you are hamstringing yourself. All people are more than a set of preconceived roles that a bunch of influencers decided were relevant.
You need to date. By which I mean go outside where people are, socialise, find people you like for multiple reasons (so not just perceived attractiveness, not just wage, not just the role you think they might have) and ask them out. The worst that can happen is they say ‘no thanks’. And if it takes 20 times before someone says ‘yeah OK’ then so be it. Its not a competition and no one is keeping score. Dating someone is literally the only way to get to know them beyond your own assumptions.
Don’t confuse stereotypical gender roles with actual roles. People are different and your partner will be stronger than you in something’s and less strong in others. Of course in my case this matched stereotypes so I just said we were traditional, but may have been fooling myself.
Of course after all that time together, now that we no longer are, one of the freedoms I’m enjoying being allowed to cook. She saw it as infringing on her role and insisted on being the one. At the time it was easy to give in, especially since she is a better cook and outstanding at combining meal planning with shopping. However I’m more adventurous a cook and appreciate new and different foods.
Abandon the concept of gender on humans. We’re too complex to fit in little boxes that make small minds feel safe.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned about people in general, it’s that no one is particularly interesting*. By that, I mean whenever someone asks “am I the only one who …” or they think they’re the only one who thinks a certain way, they are always, without fail, wrong. You don’t want to be the manly man, there are many like you and many women who prefer that.
What we all see on social media isn’t reality. Some of it are just memes, some of it’s just an echo chamber bouncing off each other, circlejerking their way into thinking all women get the ick if you have emotions. Even Instagram, where this is particularly bad, claims to have 3 billion active monthly users. Even if by some miracle each of these users were different real human beings, that’s still shy of half of the population in the best case scenario. In reality, even with Instagram, MOST people in the world don’t use it, so what you see there isn’t representative of society. Nevermind that the almighty algorithm and the “culture” there attracts a certain type of person.
Honestly, the fact that there isn’t an “incel” subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn’t patriarchal enough makes me wonder …
There are.
In any case, if you want my opinion, women are people just like you. The same way you came to your conclusions and preferences, they have too. You want an equal relationship and some women will as well. Are there people like you described? Of course, but that doesn’t mean anything more than that you two are incompatible. So if you meet one in your efforts to find a relationship, that’s ok, just move on.
*many people are very interesting, I’m just making a point
some of it’s just an echo chamber bouncing off each other, circlejerking their way into thinking all women …
And reasonable people make maybe 1-2 posts/memes about their normal relationship while incels will make hundreds. So it looks like the extreme position is way more common than it is. If your personality is centered around wanting a tradwive woman who bows down to you you will be much more vocal about it.
To OP: you are fine, most (younger than 50, and many older as well) people think like you. Its just that right wing propaganda is effective and gaining popularity.
