The man who operates the meat grinder? The man who started the business of shoving people into a grinder???

Those are two different people though.

Russia.

Now, I answered your question, would you please be so kind to answer mine now, which is also quite simple?

If there are two men, man A is simply operating a meat grinder while man B kidnaps people from the streets (soon he will start breaking into people’s homes as well), forcefully pushes them into the meat grinder, and watches to make sure they can’t get out of it, he also makes sure nobody leaves the city so that he can continue his game, who do you blame more for deaths of people in the meat grinder?

Sure, and not just one!
Here is a collection of footage of people being kidnapped from the streets, put into vans and sent to die: https://uadraftmuseum.ch/
Here is a recent news (in ukr, so please use a translator) that now they will be breaking into people’s homes to do the same: https://focus.ua/voennye-novosti/650441-mobilizaciya-po-novomu-voennaya-policiya-smozhet-zahodit-v-zhile-i-voznagrazhdat-za-pomoshch
And a few more links about how people are trying to survive this hell, and how people are dying trying to escape:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/ukraine-urgently-needs-soldiers-but-some-men-are-desperate-not-to-fight/ar-BB1naQUE
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-war-recruitment/32310040.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/15/bribes-and-hiding-at-home-the-ukrainian-men-trying-to-avoid-conscription

On another note, are you Ukrainian by any chance brother?

I am. Although nobody believes that because I don’t praise our glorious Lord and Savior Zelensky.

I really feel for you and I can tell that the draft is reality and not a joke for you if that’s the case.

Thanks man, really appreciate it! It’s rare to hear that on this instance :(

I hope I wasn’t rude

You are perfectly reasonable, I wish the rest of the instance could participate in a civil discussion instead of name-calling and ad hominem.

stay safe

Thanks again man.
I am safe, as I’ve left Ukraine before the war started, so unless other countries start cooperating with Zelensky’s regime and kidnap people from the streets [and send them to Ukraine to die] there is no threat for me.
Unfortunately it’s not true for some of my family members, my friends, and millions of Ukrainians :(

It seems to me you have more of an issue with the concept of the draft

I do have an issue with killing people (because that’s what draft is - you force somebody to go war, where they die) who done you no harm, indeed.

Some people are pacifists and radically opposed to any type of armed conflict

I’m not and I don’t really care about what other people do to each other, as long as both parties consent, they are free to wound, murder, rape and do whatever else to each other - “whatever makes your boat float” or something…

But there are valid arguments for the draft too, so you can’t just write them off by painting Zelenski into some type of tyrannical despot.

Is there something one can’t provide a valid argument for?
For one, slavery is extremely good for the economy, if we enslave all the black people (or anybody else, black is here just to make a point) we can have lots of goods and services for fraction of the cost for example, we will solve the unaffordable housing very quickly and many other problems, wouldn’t you agree?
And yet, I guess, if somebody does that - people will probably argue that that person is a tyrannical despot or something?
Zelensky effectively enslaved the Ukraine, where people are forced to do what he says, can’t leave, and so on, and yet I wrong to say he is a tyrannical despot?

The country is already in the midst of a full fledged war and elections don’t typically occur in time of war.

I am not too well-versed to really argue that point, but quick googling “are elections held during wartime” paints a mixed picture really, and says that at least in case of US it did hold elections during wars.

If your thesis is …

My point is a little bit different than simple “draft is not okay” (although that is definitely included) - people in the west are thinking that by helping the Ukrainian government they are helping Ukrainians to survive, and I am trying to tell people that it is exactly the opposite, and by supporting our government, they are only contributing to more of us dying and suffering (and so, I consider them directly responsible for all the deaths), as simple as that.
I’m having a problem with this narration of “helping”.
If the narration was honest, like “let’s support Zelensky’s regime and supply him with weapons, because we want to harm Russia no matter the cost and no matter how many Ukrainians die” then it’d be a different conversation, but it isn’t.
So, I guess, my point is trying to make people admit that this ^ is the case, and not “but we are helping Ukrainians and you are a russian bot!” 🤷‍♂️.
Thanks for the advice tho, I suppose you are right that I should be more precise when articulating a position.

Oh you mean the deal where they tried to make their seizure of Crimea legitimate?

This has already happened, and is going to stay that way, whether you or I or anybody else likes it or not…

So it woudn’t have changed anything, except, you know, such a tiny little details as hundreds of thousands of lives.

but actually the opposite is trying to reach out to NK and stabilise relations

That’s just super fucking ironic, considering that Russia never stopped saying that they are open to negotiations (and the very first peace deal was actually they they go back to before-2022-invasion borders) and it is Zelensky who always refuses to negotiate and instead sends more Ukrainians to die.

Right, so basically it’s okay for countries to be authoritarian, it’s okay to slaughter thousands of people and making everybody else live in constant fear, as long as the government aligns itself with the west.
Why would I blame Russia? It’s not Russia, it’s not Putin who is kidnapping people of the streets in Ukraine and sends them to die. It’s Zelensky’s regime.

Very cool and humanitarian and obviously I don’t agree with that. But out of curiosity - can you please explain to me why is North Korea different?
It is also officially still in a state of a war with South Korea. Does it mean Kim Jong Un is suddenly also a hero that leads his country against the enemy? It doesn’t matter that people are trapped there, it doesn’t matter that people may not support him, all the atrocities committed by him do not matter as well, because they are in a war, am I right?

I’m sorry that your current reality is an aggression into your homeland and that they’re calling on you against your will. That sure sucks.

It sure does :(

But even if goes against your wishes, peace doesn’t exist there (presumably you’re talking from the Ukraine) and liberties are the first thing to go when shit gets real

I am from Ukraine, but thankfully I am not in Ukraine, as I managed to escape it before the war started when it was still possible.
Peace was always possible, but Zelensky and his regime does not want it, because war is what allows him to stay in power and steal millions/billions of dollars.

No one pretended during the world war that they were a free and fair democracy

Zelensky does pretend that Ukraine is free and fair democracy though, and is lying to everyone’s faces that Ukraine is a democratic country that “doesn’t chase people with sticks to the frontlines”. He is a pathological liar, and unfortunately many people believe him.

Good luck with the ruskies, hope they die 2 per 1 shot at your country’s hands for what they’re doing.

The problem is not with “ruskies”, the problem is with Zelensky. Just 1 shot would be enough, and it can’t come soon enough. We can deal with Russia later.

I’m apparently a hypocrite because wanting action to be taken to stop authoritarians from controlling social networks makes me the real authoritarian or something

No, you’re a hypocrite because you see “them” censoring “you” and you scream “censure, you can’t do that!!”, but when it’s “your” side is censuring “them”, then you have no complaints, because obviously “your” censure is good, and their is “bad”.

Or maybe I’m wrong and you’re against censure in general? :)

Suffice it to say it seems like you already agree with the de facto LML stance: west is evil.

Yep, that’s correct. (btw I definitely do not associate myself with communists, it’s just that we agree on this particular point)

This position seems to divorce Ukrainians of any agency in determining their future.

It doesn’t! Those who want to fight, should definitely fight, and I don’t argue against west supporting those who want to fight with weapons, training, and whatever else. It’s actually the west that is not giving Ukrainians any choice in determining their future (see text below).

Are they not entitled to defending the sovereignty of their nation?

Again, they absolutely are! I totally support right for self-defense.

Who are you (or I) to tell them under what circumstances they should be allowed to push back against an invading force such as Russia?

Absolutely correct again and I totally agree with you, nobody should be able to prevent people from “pushing back against an invading force”.

They are a sovereign nation that agreed to the Budapest memorandum and regardless who supplies them with weapons they can determine for themselves their destiny. It isn’t for us to adjudicate from some kind of moral high ground which parts of Ukraine should be sliced off to the highest bidder even if the bullets they fire are made in capitalist imperialist evil America.

Again, totally agreed.

The thing that I’m trying to say, and the thing that I’m getting called a fascist for, is that it is not “west is supporting brave Ukrainians who want to defend their nation and fight Russia to regain the occupied territories at all cost” it is “west is supporting Zelensky’s regime (which I also consider absolutely illegitimate and authoritarian, their terms have expired, they ban all the opposition, they refuse elections, etc.) which forces people to fight by forbidding people to leave the country (which has already lead to many deaths of people who tried to escape this hell by crossing rivers/mountains and not making it), and kidnapping people on the streets, putting them into vans and sending them to the frontlines to die, and making the rest fear of going out” (you can find footages and sources for all of that if you visit my profile’s comments, but lemme know if you want me to repost it again here).

But downvotes aren’t the same as admins banning you based purely on difference of opinion, let’s not conflate the two. This thread is about the latter, while downvotes are just another form of free speech.

But I don’t complain about it and don’t conflate the two! I totally agree that downvotes is just another form of free speech.
That was just ironic “you agreed with me that censuring people is wrong and now people are going to show you how wrong you are” kind of thing, I have nothing against downvotes (I mean I’d prefer people try to engage in a civil conversation instead of that, but I’m definitely not forcing anybody to do anything, downvote away) :)

I’m curious if you’ve ever pushed back against the grain of lml or if perhaps your opinions already align?

I never post about communists and stuff, I post about horrors that are happening in Ukraine (not the ones that are committed by Russia, but by Zelensky’s regime with support from the west), and I guess it so happens that it aligns with their narration of anti-imperialism/anti-USA (that’s why I’m not censored and generally agreed with there), but it totally misaligns with heavily left-leaning views of lemmy.world and similar instances who think they are the good guys and are helping Ukrainians instead of slaughtering them (and that’s I’m censored and generally disagreed with and even called fascist here).

How many threads are there on LML about being banned from lemmy.world?

I guess being banned/censored from left-leaning communities is so not surprising anymore that people do not even see a point in doing so? I see no point in creating such a thread. But that’s just my opinion.

When the left punishes you

When the left punishes you (without them even admitting or realizing it), your country is getting turned into a mass prison and your family, your friends, and you are then slaughtered in a war, all to the applause of the left, praising your dictatorial government for being heroes.
And then, when you try to show people what’s happening in your own country, the atrocities your own government is committing upon you, the left tries to silence you until you get slaughtered, or until it becomes irrelevant and everybody moves on and forgets about it.
That’s how the left punishes you.

At least with a loss of opportunities, you still have your life and other guaranteed freedoms to find a different opportunity.

Please tell me, and every other Ukrainian, how our life and “other guaranteed freedoms” is going? How we are able to leave the country if we want to, how we are not kidnapped from the streets (and soon will be from our homes) and sent to die? Please tell me more about it.

Oh well, prepare for the downvotes now, I guess…

You’re bored of people pointing out your hypocrisy?
But it’s not surprising, you’re not supposed to be entertained by it, you’re supposed to think about it…

And I received no such treatment from LML users (but do receive such treatment with almost every comment at lemmy.world and similar instances).
Hm, can it be because both instances just censure the opposite opinions and label it as misinformation resulting in echo-chambers and both groups believing their own (false) truth?..
Nah, no way, after all we are the good ones and the other side is bad and is censoring the truth while we are censoring misinformation and propaganda 🤦

Authoritarianism cannot be tolerated.

Except when it suits your agenda, in that case it’s not only tolerated, but actually encouraged! :)

I’ve been banned from .ml for being a ‘racist’ for being anti-Xi, despite the fact that I am Chinese, and pointed out my ethnicity as such in the discussion.

And I’ve been censored (not yet banned, but I guess it won’t take long till that as well) on lemmy.world (and beehaw) for spreading “misinformation” about Ukraine, despite being a Ukrainian and actually reading (and sharing) the local news of what’s actually happening there, contrary to the government propaganda.

So, most of the fediverse instances don’t deserve attention is the fediverse? That’s an interesting take :)