Even from people that never lived in a communist state
American says communism and means socialism
I’ve always seen communism as a subclass of socialism, where socialism is the goal of classless, stateless society in which the public owns the means of production and distribute based on needs. Whereas communism is a way of attaining this goal, characterized by its materialistic focus and being revolutionary.
I know this differs from a lot of other uses for the terminology, but is there really a single definition of socialism that rules over the others (or communism for that matter, and does it even matter since they describe different important things)?
You literally have it backwards. Communism in the context of a definition of society is the classless state. Socialism is the transitory stage (also known as a dictatorship of the proletariat).
Reminder that this is specifically when talking about state/society. If you are mentioning ideology then a communist person or a socialist might have significant diversion of views/goals. Yes, it can be confusing.
Excerpt from Wikipedia:
As one of the many types of socialism, communism became the dominant political tendency, along with social democracy, within the international socialist movement by the early 1920s.[34]
Excerpt from ProleWiki:
Its modern usage is almost always traced back to Karl Marx’s usage of the term where he introduced the concept of scientific socialism alongside Friedrich Engels. The theory of scientific socialism described communism not as an idealistic, perfect society but rather as a stage of development taking place after a long, political process of class struggle. Marx, however, used the terms socialism and communism interchangeably and he drew no distinction between the two. Lenin was the first person to give distinct meanings to the terms socialism and communism. The socialism/communism of Marx was now known simply as communism, and Marx’s “transitional phase” was to be known as socialism.
I knew about this. I just do not really think anyone claiming superiority based on “define socialism and communism” as someone to be taken seriously, given that terminology is dependant on context and definitions on a base level are arbitrary if taking an axiomatic approach to theory.
Ah yes, that’s perfectly valid, the terms will be different on context (which is why I specified the state context).
Are you American?
No, why do you ask?
American says communism and means conservative democrat or Trump Republican, depending on who is saying it.
AES barely even registers, except for the occasional “Why don’t you move to Vuvuzela!”
Why isn’t anyone defending AEC countries?
Nobody actually wants to be Estonia anymore
the hardest test for any American
define communism
define propaganda
use both in a sentence that applies to the agreed definitions
How would you define communism? I hear so many different definitions and find it hard to differentiate which one is accurate.
I was kidding around, and part of the joke is how pointless the definition is:
communism: that the assets held by a body are indivisible across the individuals of that body when the assets in question are required to engage in production.
Thereby any definition of “body”, “asset” and “production” can be used to define specific types and scopes of a communist ideology.
propaganda: a piece or collection of communications that has the primary purpose to persuade.
communist propaganda: a communication to persuade the reader to share the means of production across a collective.
The original definition is a community where private property is not a thing. Private property is when an individual can control the land, tools, and knowledge people need to survive. Private property is factories, not your toothbrush.
Most pro USSR, PRC, or Cuba leftists believe those countries governments controlling all or the vast majority of private property constitutes communism. Some think these countries are socialist and working their way to communism.
Many anti-communist people don’t really understand how these countries work specifically. All their ideas of what communism is are based on how they view the above communist countries.
Finally right wingers will describe California as communist because they have social programs and higher taxes than some states. Basically if the government is intervening in the market by supplying a service or good directly to a citizen that’s communism.
From what I’ve observed most people lie somewhere on this spectrum of definition.
No, there are outright communists on Lemmy. This is an accurate take.
You’re proving their point. You say “outright” communists, as if socialism isn’t just a transition between capitalism and communism.
It gets touted as a transition state between Capitalism and Communism, by Communists who want to get away from Capitalism, and Capitalists who fear anything that isn’t Capitalist.
But it is a genuine economic philosophy on its own that blends the best parts of Communism and Capitalism in one. At least to my opinion.
I’m saying it because places like Lemmygrad and Hexbear are outright Communist and they will take it as an insult if you call them socialist.
I’m not talking about the shades of different economic preferences, I’m talking about the extreme cases. In the extreme cases, there are multiple outright Communist communities on Lemmy.
I don’t get why you’re being downvoted. There’s a great comment by Cowbee (I think) that explains why this is a thing.
There are people who are explicitly self-proclaimed Communists on Lemmy.
This isn’t some “Healthcare is communism!!!1” thing.
A lot of the users on those instances also has usernames or pronouns which includes “commie”
I think it is because some people think that socialism is a kind of communism, when that take wouldn’t be accepted by a lot of communists here.
Communism is Socialist, there aren’t any Communists that would take offense to being called Socialist. There are Socialists that take offense to being called Communist, because for them, Socialism is the goal itself.
There are Socialists that take offense to being called Communist, because for them, Socialism is the goal itself
Very rare. Those who do dislike being called communists probably aren’t very serious about socialism at all, and probably only want the “social capitalism” of Scandanavian countries.
It’s probably the idea that Communists take offense to being called Socialist. The opposite is true, as Communism is a maximally Socialist position.
If you are going by theory, sure. But if the word socialism gets used in conversation today, it will probably get interpreted as something like the Nordic model.
That’s what happens when the communists are purged and billions of propaganda dollars are spent over generations to erase their memory: you end up with Newspeak, where people don’t know their asses from their elbows. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare
they will take it as an insult if you call them socialist
What a dumb thing to say. Browse those instances and talk to communists/socialists there before you make weird claims about them. Or at least learn about socialism in general first.
they will take it as an insult if you call them socialist.
Do you have any
evidenceto support this testimony?
Communists believe that socialism is a transitional state from capitalism to communism, but 1) communists aren’t the only socialists and 2) a lot of Americans think milquetoast social safety net capitalist reformers like Bernie Sanders are socialists despite them never calling for the abolition of private ownership of the means of production.
If under communism everything is shared, that would have to include political power.
So that would make communism a direct democracy. Which communist country was a direct democracy?
“I’m 17 and I hate communism”
😂 enough said. Come back when you’re a bit older and a bit wiser.
This has to be the greatest troll I’ve ever seen or else I’m a filthy commie.
My guess is that it’s because the average age of lemmy is somewhere around 15-17. It’s the only thing that makes sense. People are into that shit in their mid-late teens. Then they grow out of it.
It happens in every generation.
Almost 50 here, and I’m pretty thoroughly socialist… and my dad is leaning farther left the older he gets too.
I didnt even know the actual definition of communism till my mid-30s in 2008.
This remains a myth unsubstantiated by any data or evidence.
I hope you replied this same thing to every comment posted answering OP’s question. Because that’s all anyone has to offer.
Sorry, I should’ve been clearer, the myth you spouted isn’t just baseless, it’s actually been disproved. Different generations change their political leaning in different ways as they age.
Which is exactly what I said, genius.
When I was 15 me and my friends made fun of communists and joked they were probably posting from their parent’s computers. Now that I’m middle aged I’m a socialist, although wouldn’t quite say communist. I haven’t read Marx, but I do believe the point of a government is to help people, and our governments aren’t doing enough in that regard. I believe privately held corporations are designed to make their owners money, and if that interferes with the common good then they should be stopped.
The problem is that people think that shit would work here. It won’t. It’s barely worked elsewhere. And if you don’t believe this, look up how happy the people of Bulgaria are.
Capitalism sucks. But it’s at least predictable and somewhat malleable. Socialism/communism is at best a unproven theoretical ideology.
There are definitely failed communist states. Everyone always talks about bad examples and not successes like say, Nordic countries. And I realize I’m not saying something new here, but if we can agree those countries are doing well, but argue they’re not socialist, then why don’t we go ahead and implement the programs they have?
I don’t particularly care what the label is, I care about the outcome. I want people to get treated for illness without going bankrupt. I want everyone to have access to education. Every person should have somewhere to sleep. Every person should have enough to eat.
If this was the middle ages we could argue that it’s the law of the jungle, and the strong survive while the weak fall to the side. Today we have abundance to the point that we absolutely have enough for everyone. It’s the system that distributes goods and assigns tasks which isn’t up to the job.
Call it what you want, but I believe we should improve our system to address those problems, and I believe it’s possible to address them.
Since when are the Nordic countries communist?
Well as I said I’d call myself a socialist more than communist, and for many that’s splitting hairs, but I think it’s reasonable to call them socialist. But my whole point was if we skip the labeling, they have elements in their governments that I’d like to see emulated. It’s possible to have a democratically controlled nation that works more for the benefit of its people.
Right, but Nordic countries aren’t exactly communist or socialist. There’s this if you’d like to understand it better.
I’m fairly familiar with the Nordic countries and I think it’s important to have a market. Still, they’re known for “socialist” policies like universal healthcare, strong welfare benefits and Norway’s sovereign wealth fund. They also manage to have strong democracies (including proportional representation) without turning into dictatorships like people accuse communist/socialist countries of doing.
What I was getting at is would you agree the countries are doing well? If so, who cares about the label, why don’t we do some of that stuff?
Those aren’t Socialism though, lol
You don’t think universal healthcare is socialist? Free higher education?
Again, I don’t care as much about the label, but when these things are suggested in America it’s socialist. When you point out anything good about the Nordics or just Europe generally the answer is they’re not socialist, and it’s not because of socialism. But we can’t do those things in America because it’s socialist.
What you just described is what America already has.
That’s not true. America doesn’t have universal healthcare, or free higher education. Norway’s sovereign wealth fund owns 1.5% of the world’s listed countries, for the benefit of Norwegians.
edit: im 17 and i hate communism
Come back to Lemmy when you’re a bit older and more educated lol
Because there are a lot of communists on lemmy?
Some can be very annoying. If you haven’t blocked hexbear, I highly recommend it. They got exiled from reddit years ago and have been stewing in a tankie echo chamber ever since.
Hexbear aren’t communists, they’re just using it as a facade to spread propaganda.
90% of the shit spouted about Hexbear is just baseless nonsense. Soon as you actually try to have a good faith discussion, they’re hecka cool.
They’re abrasive kinda like Twitch Chat, but many are reasonable.
Not when I tried it. When shw federated, I tried for about 2 days to talk about stuff. But they kept defending Russia in it’s invasion of Ukraine with super brain dead arguments and holding up North Korea as a shinning example of communism. Plus at the ends of threads, they often just respond with poop emojis. Or even at the beginning of threads. That’s just annoying.
Edit: oh and defending or denying China’s treatment of the Uyghur was also common.
They got exiled from reddit years ago
Huh, just like everyone else here
It’s weird rather that some people are such bootlickers that they complain about people being socialists/communists after leaving a platform because of capitalism
I complained about them being annoying and tankies.
I chose to migrate.
I dislike communism but most communists actually obsess over things that matter due to having terminally Kantian thought processes. I’d rather post in an environment like that than one filled with barely sentient slop consumers who just believe things
“commies, lol, try being jewish” ~ jews
Guys please check the list of the communist countries and come back to me to tell if you want to live in there, ok?
Desiring Communism isn’t because people overwhelmingly desire one form of production over another, the draw is for what these modes of production allow for and who they benefit.
It’d be cool to live in an AES country, sure, but what would be even better is to transition existing Capitalist states towards Socialism. Having more international trade between like-minded Socialist countries would benefit these countries massively.
There is no nation state while living in a commune. Communist country is a oxymoron .
Yeah, I do. My wife lives in China as we speak, in fact. Why would I not want to live in one of the safest countries on earth with the highest level of automation, easily accessible and cheap housing and food, mandated workers democracy, and high speed rail to and from nearly everywhere of note?
Have you ever been to China? It’s better than the US in many, many ways. I make 4x the minimum wage in my state and can’t afford a one bedroom apartment. My wife makes min wage in her province and can afford her own place. I can’t afford to get medical care even with nice insurance because it’s a scam, my wife got daily IV treatments at a high quality clinic for three weeks for under $300 without insurance. She works today (International Workers Day) and is receiving triple overtime pay for it. I could literally go on for hours.
You’re young, don’t be so self-assured.
You’re getting down voted but no one has answered you.
I’m being down voted for having a good point but they don’t like facts
How can you complain about no one being brave enough to take you on mano-a-mano, but also say this:
The literal stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.
Lmao you don’t have proper political opinions at 17
Found the nazi
Nazi, get out of our community
Not that I’ve noticed. Plenty of “why this pro-consumer thing is bad for consumers, we should leave power to big corps” blog and news posts tho
I’m 14 and very edgy.
Ah yes wanting a better system not built on the capitalist exploitation of the working-class is “edgy”
Do you even know what you’re talking about?
Found them!
Sounds like you probably are
