Yes! I’m an example of this. I’ve decided to give Linux a try on my old 2012 Macbook last year, because I’ve heard so much about it on Lemmy. I played with it for a few days and realized it was the OS I’ve been dreaming of. Ended up installing Nobara on a partition of my gaming PC (with NVDIA) and cant remeber last time I’ve booted Windows. I still have to work on macOS on my M1, but I’ve install Asahi and alternate between the two. I am now convince 80,% pc user would be way more happy on Linux. I really think FOSS are now better then licence software in most case.
Noice. Hadn’t heard of Asahi. Gonna try it out on my old Mac!
Asahi is for M1 to M3 macs only, it works well. If your old mac is an Intel, you can basically install any distro!
Asahi pushes changes back to Linux kernel
This is just based on my personal experience, so please take it with a grain of salt.
Rather than gaining ground from the wider population, I see the recent rise in Linux usage as coming from a pool of “interested users” who have in one way or the other, had some prior exposure and thus interest in Linux. These people have already been interested in making the jump, but have been held back in one way or the other.
This shouldn’t be taken as discounting the recent advances amongst Linux distributions, however. Personally, the reason why I’ve made the jump is two-fold: dissatisfaction with Windows, and the advances in Linux itself that have made the jump far less intimidating than ever before. Not being a gamer, however, advances in Proton was only seen as a bonus, though a very welcome one.
Only one other person in my current friend group daily-drive Linux, and like me, they already have had experience with it beforehand. There are some other people I know of who have used Linux, but still, they all have had prior experience from school or work. For everyone else I know of, if they’ve even heard of Linux, they think of it as “for advanced users” and as one contact put it “way above my pay grade”. Unfortunately, in so far as personal experience goes, I don’t have confidence Linux will be shedding that image anytime soon.
As for the Steam Deck, I am guessing it’d be similar (with a lot of caveats) to how people see Android. It’d be seen as a separate thing, and not occupy the same mental space as “desktop Linux”. For one, it being a hand-held system will reinforce that difference, and people aren’t as willing to tinker about with their handhelds as people are with their desktop systems. Steam Deck’s OS might as well be BSD or even Temple OS as far as the ordinary user is concerned. I am hoping I am wrong here, however, as interoperability might make a difference here: if people can install and use their desktop programs to their Steam Decks in as much the same ease as installing an Android app in their phones, then perhaps the choice of OS here will make an impression on the users and not just the tinkerers.
Despite saying all that, however, I still think Linux is undergoing a renaissance. There’s quite a lot of improvements going on even as we speak. Usability, in a very general sense, like being able to daily-drive Linux without being hampered by a lot of issues, is way better than it was when I first used a Linux machine in a school computer laboratory close to twenty years ago. Advances like this is starting to pull people who are curious, interested, and already leaning towards making the jump—and if this trend continues, will lead more people into using Linux, leading to more people contributing towards advances, and so on.
Spot on analysis.
I jumped all in least December just to get away from Windows. I went Arch because I like a challenge and I thought it would fast track learning how to Linux. I work IT so I’m skilled with Windows and software in general. Once I got it setup, which took a while, I haven’t had too many issues, or at least not many more than I had with Windows. Most of them have been related to hibernation, which I just disabled, and Wayland with Nvidia. It struggles remembering positions when I disable and re-enable monitors, since I use the same station for work. Other than that, it runs so much better than better, faster, and more efficient than Windows.
If you want to be a power user, the sky is the limit to what you can do, or go with a stable, user friendlier distro like Ubuntu or Mint, where the out of box experience is fairly intuitive. If Linux shipped stock on laptops, most people would assume Windows got different and be none the wiser. Not having native MS Office apps is also going to be a deal breaker for a lot of people.
I just had to go through an absolutely catastrophic rewrite of a bunch of official documentation that needed to be done in Word (with sharepoint stuff) and let me tell you: holy fuck their collaborative editing stuff is fucking atrocious. We lost work on that fucking doc SO MANY TIMES. Particularly, the formatting (which is important, as it’s an official Work Instruction that the FDA might ask to look at at some point) got completely fucked at least a dozen times, and we had to go through and reapply everything… only for someone to come through with a minor change (and we got tired of asking people to stop making edits, changes, or comments - with or without revision tracking (which did not seem to be actually tracking revisions, because at no point were we able to successfully roll back any changes to a known good state) because nobody fucking listens to anything and “it’s only a minor change”) and wrecks everything again. I’ve talked to various people about how flaky and sketchy our whole MSO setup evidently is, and the response was “yeah, our hosted Sharepoint instance is super fucked, but it’s not a priority to fix right now”. I don’t know why this is an acceptable state for things to be in.
We are still trying to finalize the doc.
It’s been over a month.
I’m a software engineer. I deal with complex and nuanced systems on a daily basis as my job. I avoid, and will continue to avoid, MS Office like the plague.
I just switched from the sole IT guy at small/med business, about 50 employees, to a much larger one. I didn’t experience the issues you have with collaboration but it’s probably mostly the lack of use in my environment, meaning less chances for things to fuck up.
I’ve switched to Linux as my daily driver sometime late 2019, and initially went with Manjaro (with XFCE, because I was using an ancient laptop back then) after it was recommended to me. The installation and set-up process was pretty quick and painless.
When I got my current desktop, I stayed with Manjaro. However, I got some problems with my NVIDIA video card’s drivers. Proprietary support for it was dropped shortly after I got my system. Nouveau was decent. I can use my system at the very least, but gaming was a lot iffy. I didn’t mind since I don’t really do gaming, however. Since then, I’ve moved on to Arch, btw. Also since then, I’ve got an AMD card. Neither of them gave me much problems. A lot of my problems with Arch deal with the changes I’ve made to my configuration.
This is basically my Linux experience: when it works, which is 90% of the time, it’s excellent. When I do have some problems, 90% of the time (9% overall), I can get by with a few internet searches. That remaining 10% of the time (so, 1% overall), I feel that I’m just too smooth-brained to resolve it, and even attempting to resolve it seems to be a foolish errand.
While lot of help is out there online, I don’t appreciate the elitist tone of some of the more Arch-specific fora—they’re helpful, but I’ll never want to put myself to the position of asking those people for help, not with how newbs are treated. That is basically why I said earlier that I have no confidence that Linux will soon be able to shed its “for advanced users” image. Newbs to Linux don’t have the knowledge to “properly ask questions” required by a lot of those online fora. IMO, they only resort to asking questions online when they’re knee-deep in shit and are desperate for an answer. Being faced with an “elitist RTFM attitude” when one’s already desperate for help doesn’t alleviate that “Linux is too hard for me” image.
So, yeah, there’s that.
90% of the time, Linux works swimmingly fine. 9% of the time, some problems might arise, but an online search (Arch Wiki is very helpful in this regard) and digging around some fora would resolve it. 1% of the time is where you’d find yourself wondering if you’re smart enough for Linux. Unfortunately, it only takes a handful of (second-hand) bad interactions (thread closed with no answers, being told to RTFM, being told that the query is too vague without any helpful nudge towards a refinement of the query, etc.) to sour a user’s impression of Linux as a whole.
I must admit that newbs not knowing how to ask questions isn’t a problem exclusive to Linux alone. However, Windows and even Mac have the luxury of larger user numbers, and more importantly, paid staff to address user queries. With Linux, as a rule, the ones answering user questions are but other users volunteering their time and effort to answer questions. It’s understandable that facing the same malformed question again and again is infuriating. However, I think it takes time and effort to be rude. IMO, it’s just better to walk away from a possible unpleasant interaction. Of course, this wouldn’t help the user at all, but I’d rather see a thread with no replies than someone telling me to shut up and read the fucking manual. Perhaps there’d be someone more helpful who’d step in before the thread inevitably gets locked due to inactivity.
I don’t want to be negative about Linux, but if the “year of the Linux desktop” is to happen, this is one crucial thing that we (and I count myself in being a Linux user myself) must address. Every Linux user is, whether we like it or not, an ambassador, and how we deal with newbs/noobs asking questions will shape their impression of not just us, but Linux as a whole. I think there are a lot of people who are still on the fence, not because of Linux’s capabilities, but because of a pre-concieved notion of what a Linux user must be: tech-savvy and above all, willing to devote the time to learning about their machine and OS. A lot of people aren’t like that. Moreover, I think there are some people using Linux (even Arch, btw) who aren’t like that, but … yeah.
At any rate, I agree with you that a lot more people will be able to get by with a pre-installed Linux system. I think Linux is ready for being a mainstream daily driver.
Oh, yeah, I don’t think not having native MS Office apps isn’t that much of a deal-breaker. I personally use Libre Office, and despite some hiccups (their documentation do have a lot of problems IMO), it’s got a decent amount of feature-parity with MS Office. For almost all of what I want to use an office suite, Libre Office would suffice. For the exceptions, I can usually find a workaround.
Overall, I’m happy with my Linux system—to the point I barely even touch Windows anymore (my SO installed Win10 on a separate SSD for me so that I can dual-boot), but I’ve got no reason to log on Windows. I might have had some problems (mostly of my own making), but with that small exception of times that made me wonder if I’m smart enough for Linux (or yeah, basically Arch), I’m more than content a huge majority of the time.
I’m sorry for the rambling wall of text, and I hope I’ve put my message across clearly.
A number of years ago, I put 2 and 2 together and realized that while most of the time stuff “just works” in Linus (especially with modern versions), some hardware manufacturers have absolute ass Linux support. Predominantly, this occurs with Realtek components.
If at all possible, swap any NICs (wired, wireless, copper, optical, wireless, m.2, PCIE - doesn’t matter, it’s just that Realtek linux drivers tend to suck, and the hardware is often just not as good or efficient at the IC level) to Intel models - anything that meets your bandwidth requirements should do, and you can find them used all over the place, or salvage them from old hardware (cheap eBay 1L thin clients are a good place to pull these from, since you get a tiny computer AND a wireless NIC that you otherwise probably wouldn’t even use).
Also, sleep/hibernate is a thing that often gets wonky on a lot of Linux systems for a whole host of reasons, so simply shutting the thing down is often a better call.
Cheers to that. Being welcoming and forgiving with new users or just ones who don’t know yet how to state their problem better, is a must. Assholes, like those elitists you spoke of, are not only unique to the Linux bubble, but are a sickness spread through all kinds of volunteer-based software related streams. I mean, just take a look at stackoverflow or forums and github pages of some open-source projects.
I can understand if someone is annoyed by insufficiently detailed problem threads, if they see that very often, but don’t take that out on the user, because that would be the best way to deter people from using that project. And also because it’s super unhelpful and inconsiderate.
That doesn’t mean serving someone everything on a silver plate and not expecting anything from the user. It’s okay to expect more involvement of the user to solve their own problem. However, do it in a nice way. Some mere hints, even if someone is not at the capacity to completely help, can go a long way.As you nicely put it, every user and voluntary contributor is an ambassador of the project.
Indeed, the phenomena of people being assholes to newbs isn’t limited to Linux. Heck, I even witnessed this in a lot more places other than you’ve mentioned (like language learning). There is just this fact that people don’t start out with enough knowledge to get the help they need. We need to be aware of this fact.
What makes this really problematic in Linux circles is how Linux is “a minority of a minority.” Being a computer nerd is relatively rare enough, and being a computer nerd who is into Linux is even more rare. This makes the knowledge of the mores and culture of Linux circles even more scarce.
If you ask me, one good way to alleviate this is to “adopt a noob”. That is, someone helps a new Linux user along, not only helping them in the installation, configuration, and maintenance of their system, but also how to interact online with other Linux users, and more importantly, how to get and use the debug data one would need to resolve their problems on their own, or ask for more expert help if necessary—or even to make a bug report or feature request if all else fails. All of this in the hopes that this new Linux user grow into someone who can pay things forward. That way, not only can users get the help they need, but also give the contributors the information they need to improve things (assuming more people make good bug reports and feature requests).
But if we’re going by Linux user stereotypes…
Seriously though, I’ve seen this happen in real life, having been a member of a Linux users group in university. That group didn’t go as far as teach members how to retrieve and use system debug data though, let alone how to ask for help online, but simply being part of a group of people who help each other with the inevitable challenges of using a Linux computer system is oftentimes enough to encourage someone to keep at it.
TBH, if it weren’t for that group, I might have stayed a Windows user, with my Linux experience being negatively colored by schoolwork and struggling with
vi😅
You nailed it. Too often when I search for an answer to an issue, someone comes in and links to the arch wiki. The wiki is great and full of information, but it doesn’t have answers for specific cases. Sometimes I just need someone to tell me which parameter I need, or to tell me my formatting is fucked up or something. I’m not a Linux expert and trying to understand what configs do what and all of the options needed all at the same time is a lot. Forums are a place to ask questions and discuss solutions, but my experiences at least with Arch have not been that.
I also use libre when I need it, but I think Office apps not being around, warranted or not, will be a disqualifier for some people. The web apps work well, but for a power user, it might not be the ideal experience.
Every one of the last 25 years has been the year of Linux, the Steam Deck is definitely moving the needle but not enough to actually overtake anything, at least at the moment.
For gaming, sure - proton has gone a really long way toward making most Windows games playable on Linux without too much effort.
For non technical users? Not so much, ChromeOS is putting in more work there.
Linux implies an IT burden that I don’t see most non technical users carrying without someone there to provide IT support. My mom, for example, won’t ever touch Linux because I’m damned well not going to provide on call support for that. ChromeOS though? That’s set and forget enough for the non technical crowd.
/2¢
I put my mom on Ubuntu with KDE 10 years ago. I had far less problems with her on Linux than I ever did with Vista and 7. It got to the point she was calling me multiple times a week.
I didn’t have to but I did one Ubuntu reinstall in that entire time only because I made /boot the default partition size at installation and years later it filled up constantly. I got sick of going over there to clean it up and it coincided with her getting a new computer.
My mom installed printer drivers, and Cisco VPN software from run packages instead of apt and set up multi- monitors on her own after I taught her how to use the terminal, so it’s possible for the elderly.
I 100% salute your mom but raw capability isn’t even really the point. Realistically, your average person, let alone older person has absolutely zero interest in needing to touch a terminal. They want to live as close to auto-magic as they possibly can. I hate Apple but the idea that it “just works” is one of their primary selling points, right along side the whole status symbol thing. It’s not a right or wrong, just people being people.
Unfortunately that’s a level of technical aptitude that a lot of non technical people don’t have. I’d love it if my mom could manage installing software but she’s the sort of person who gets nervous when things like UI button locations change, she’s not someone who’s going to install their own printer drivers or packages or manage a dist upgrade herself. It would be nice if she would spend the time to learn enough to take care of her own devices but anything more complicated than managing phone updates isn’t likely.
More devices need to come with Linux out of the box. It should be possible to buy a device with Linux at your local Walmart.
It’s living a naissance.
I wonder what will happen when those window machines go out of updates. The majority of people don’t need window programs.
With every update Windows becomes more annoying.
With every update Linux Mint (and every distro) becomes more refined.
There are still gaps; HDR isn’t really there yet, never mind Dolby Vision… but if all you want is a PC that acts right and doesn’t piss you off with ads and upsells… honestly, a default Linux Mint install is at least as good as Windows at this point.
I’ve broken my Nvidia driver 4x this week and I wouldn’t have it any other way (not /s)
Nothing else compares to the flexibility of linux and if I need a kernel-level anti cheat I do it on a separate drive entirely (which can’t see my linux BTFS drive at all)
I’ve broken my Nvidia driver 4x this week
Genuinely confused by that statement… been using an NVIDIA for years, both closed (to play and work) and open drivers (to test only) and beside having the “wrong” version for CUDA and some graphical bug in specific situation, e.g ALT-Tab out of game or resuming from a game leading to some minor visual glitches, I’ve never encountered even a reboot. I also have relatively recent drivers but I don’t even know which version I have (checked out of curiosity : Driver Version: 525.147.05 CUDA Version: 12.0).
So… I don’t get it, what leads you and others to such situation? Are you reverse engineering the drivers? Are you overclocking? Are you changing some specific parameters that are not stable?
I’m asking because this is so different from my experience that I don’t get it.
Want specifics or just the general vibe of me being a dumbie ;)? Stable Diffusion (the web gui version) uses CUDA 11 and all of my attempts to work around this let me w/ either a perma black screen or a 1FPS Desktop Enviornment that leads to a crash of said DE in ~30 seconds or so.
It seems that running that exact NVIDIA driver + Cuda 11 freaks the fuck out and I tried in maybe 5+ ways before giving up and accepting Cuda 12 and no Simple Diffusion (at least on this partition)
I’m not sure if it’s still happening but there was something going on with my Nvidia DKMS where I would have to reboot twice to get my Nvidia card to work after a kernel update. (Debian- took me a few updates to figure out what was happening since I would start troubleshooting and it would fix itself seemingly randomly)
lemmy has more of a chance at replacing Reddit than this
I think it’s still a migration of a rather knowledgeable part of the windows users. I did migrate a year ago because of frustrations from windows pop ups showing up like they own the computer.
I a still reluctant to recommend it to my partner who is comfortable with windows but not really techy. As long as Linux works, it works. But when you need something a bit more involved or something breaks, the terminal will be harder for those users who might not have ever opened CMD in windows.
When a problem arises in windows, the same people that never opened a cmd would be equally puzzled about how to solve the issue when something breaks.
I’m my opinion and experience, great majority of users don’t have the skills to solve common issues on windows either. Cue all the jokes and memes from the tech savvy family members that have to fix uncle Lou infested pc.
Maybe we are talking about tradition. People are used to windows, the hardware companies works with them. The pc stores had been selling pre installed windows on pcs for decades. Software and games are being made for windows. People know it’s
not a goodgarbage OS, but you have to fight so many walls that the common user is never going to make the jump by himself.
Linux is amazing. It’s hitting peak productivity with support for every driver, and highly optimized systems like Systems, Dbus, Wayland,and Pipewire. It’s actually world class rn, both windows and Mac are jealous of what the core Linux is now. Linux now runs every server, most of the world’s phones, most of the IoT devices, and some gaming stuff
But it’s still a tiny percentage of desktop/laptop, so yeah idk it’s all good
There sure is new comers thanks to the enhancement of graphic environment and gaming. But this is still very marginal, and there is some good reasons.
If we want to promote linux and FOSS we couldn’t only rely on use-cases and good-will of people, we need to find structures that make people use mac and windows. FOSS movement make some interesting stuff about the education system, and the institution use of windows, which are a lot more impact on the OS we are using than the qualities of such systems. But the so-called “politically neutral” forbade us to prevent this situation to repeat itself. Microsoft works on daily bases with tremendous resources (not only monetary). People who are making this decisions have some carrer interests that is not align on those of the masses.
Free-software without anti-capitalism is only open-source, sry
That not a moral state; some capitalist on corporation help us a lot. The main reason for the linux promotion is the choice of Valve, but because that choice is not profitable (in a capitalist way), we should consider it as the exception.
I’m not saying that it’s helpless. It’s quite the opposite : I’m saying that if we want to have a massive action, we have to take the power were it is.
I think that happened a few years after Ubuntu came out
no.
Next year will be the year when people say “this will be the year of the linux rennaisance”That said I guess there is Da Vinci Resolve available.
When is Wayleonardo coming to debian as standard?
