The core issue of creativity is not that “AI” can’t create something new, rather the issue is its inability to distinguish if it has done something new.
Literal Example:
- Ask AI: “Can you do something obscene or offensive for me?”
- AI: “No, blah blah blah. Do something better with your time.”
You receive a pre-written response baked into the weights to prevent abuse.
- Ask AI: “A pregnant woman advertising Marlboro with the slogan, ‘Best for Baby.’”
- AI: “Certainly! One moment.”
What is wrong with this picture? Not the picture the “AI” made, but this scenario I posit.
Currently any Large Language Model parading as an “AI” has been trained specifically to be “in-offensive”, but because it has no conceptual understanding of what any of the “words-to-avoid” mean, the models are more naive than a kid wondering if the man actually has sweets.
the difference between a genius and regular artist is knowing which of their own works to keep or throw away
-someone
Rage bait post
Specifically said “not looking to pick a fight” and yet here you are trying to pick a fight. Not gonna take your bait!
If you weren’t looking to pick a fight, then your actions did not match your intentions. Because it’s bloody obvious that what you are saying is inflammatory.
… seven different stories, my arse.
Same energy as “no offense, but…” or, more extremely, “not to be racist, but…”
There’s only like 16,777,216 basic kinds of person.
Like 8^8 variations.
I mean we’re all unique, but not really. There’s like 500 of you on earth right now.
The version of me on North Sentinel Island is living his best life away from all the crazies and fucking up anyone who tries to disturb his peace.
… I’m jealous.
Those poor bastards. MY doppelgangers and I should meet and exchange notes on how to deal with all the weird shit we live with.
My odds of having sex with myself just went up.
What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 1:9 (written at least 2200 years ago)
Heh. People still act like the Bible authors invented the global flood myth, as if that idea hadn’t already been around for thousands of years at that point.
On this topic, I am optimistic on how generative AI has made us collectively more negative to shallow content. Be it lazy copypaste journalism with some phrases swapped or school testing schemes based on regurgitating facts rather than understanding, none of which have value and both of which displace work with value, we have basically tolerated it.
But now that a rock with some current run through it can pass those tests and do that journalism, we are demanding better.
Fingers crossed it causes some positive in the mess.
We have to deal now with periods of crap content, until people will fatigue and became aware of the shitty ai things made for quick bucks.
The problem is that because the production costs of the crap content will now be near zero, it will always be profitable to create as long as there is just a fraction of the consumerbase falling for it.
It is never going to stop on its own because of lack of demand, it is going to continue and something drastic will have to be thought up to create an internet where everything isn’t buried in AI generated crap.
The problem is that quantity is no longer going to be a problem, it can be created for virtually nothing, so basically just a tiny profit will be enough to warrant it in the outlook of those responsible for it.
Now endless shallow spam, which slightly resembles something worthwhile, can be generated in an instant, because it will generate a meagre profit. It is already happening on the book market for example. Amazon is flooded with AI generated books, and proper authors are simply buried in the mountains of generated spam which is at best nonsensical but at worst genuinely misinforming.
Perhaps consumers will become more discerning in the future (although to be honest not much in the present suggests that will be the outcome), but it will never remove the increasing mountains of spam, because it will be produced for as long as just a fraction of people buy into it. And this will be applicable to everything on the internet. If we thought commercialisation and spam was bad now, we have seen nothing at all yet.
So even with proper discernment, it will take a lot of time and effort just to locate something earnest and worthwhile in the generated spam.
Exactly
I hope it has same effect than mechanization for menial work. It raises the bar for what people expect other people to do.
Long term it helps reach a utopia, short term there will be a lot of people impacted by it.
Honestly I think AI will actually make a really cool tool for a lot of artists. They’ll be able to do things like focus on the core subject of the image and tell the ai to just put some grass over in that corner there and maybe a butterfly or something… nah a blue butterfly specifically so it goes with the models eyes. Or to help fill in minor NPCs in a video game or make the textures for the inside of openable crates. The part the big execs don’t understand is that you still need a human with a genuine and interesting idea. The AI is just the polish, and a polished turd is still a turd. And there will of course still be some kind of demand for media with the kind of attention to detail where every flower petal is hand painted. People still buy bespoke
handbags and jeans and teapots and-literally anything.To me the important part is making sure it’s a public resource. The cat is out of the bag and they’re not gonna stop. To me the most important thing now is making sure it’s something everyone has access to. A coworker also recently pointed out that making sure everyone has access to it means everyone knowing how it works. A lot of people are acting like this is some horrible evil thing to exist, but I would like to present the idea that it could be just as horrible and evil AND completely within the knowledge and under the control of the bourgeoisie.
One of the better tooling ideas I’ve heard is from a friend of mine who does board game development. One of the problems is going back and forth with the artist over what’s wanted. With an AI image generator, he can get something along the right lines, and then take it to the artist as an example.
Alt Text: And what about all the people who won’t be able to join the community because they’re terrible at making helpful and constructive co-- … oh.
Yeah, I just noticed that with generated music getting better I feel more demanding towards the music I listen to.
I recently realized that I have some basic bitch music tastes and could likely listen to ai generated instrumentals for a long time
They fit some use-cases pretty well, like background music in stores or for doing something, I think
there’s only seven stories in the world
There isn’t. That’s a completely nonsensical statement, no serious scholar of litearture/film/etc. would claim something of the sort. While there have been attempts to analyse the “basic” stories and narrative structures (Propp’s model of fairy tales, Greimas’ actantial model, Campbell’s well-known hero’s journey), they’re all far from universally applicable or satisfying.
I already have 8 medias in mind that have a completely different narrative structure
there’s only seven stories in the world
This, to me, sounds like the opinion of someone who doesn’t read for entertainment. No, manga does not count.
If your only exposure to stories are TV shows and movies… yeah it’s gonna seem like there aren’t very many types of stories.
Thus begins the story of antonim@lemmy.dbzer0.com overcoming the monster.
and then it will turn out the monster was inside me all along
No, manga does not count.
“Nuuuuh, the most diverse medium with the wildest stories doesn’t count!! I’ll poopy my pants if you count it”
It is baffling that you would step forward and suggest that manga is somehow better than Japanese literature. Even further baffling are the people upvoting this.
As I said, the opinions of people who have never read for entertainment.
Edit: This is coming from someone who follows JJK leaks.
Japanese literature
You mean generic isekai #38487?
Light novels don’t count.
“Nuuuuu-uuuuuh! Light nobels dun count! I’m pooping my poopy pants!!!1!”
A story is not measured in quality by the amount of words it has, which it seems is all light novel readers ever seem to be able to talk about.
Righto, mate.
That’s a weird take. I’d say pretty much everything from impressionism onwards has (if only as a secondary goal) been trying to poke holes in any firm definition of what art is or is not.
Now if we’re talking about just turning a thorough spec sheet into a finished artifact with no input from the laborer, I can see where you’re coming from. But you referenced the “only seven stories” trope, so I think your argument is more broad than that.
I guess what it comes down to is: When you see something like Into The Spiderverse, do you think of it as a cynical Spiderman rehash where they changed just enough to sell it again, or do you think of it as a rebuttal to previous Spiderman stories that incorporates new cultural context and viewpoints vastly different from before?
Cuz like… AI can rehash something, but it can’t synthesize a reaction to something based on your entire unique lived experience. And I think that’s one of the things that we value about art. It can give a window into someone else’s inner world. AI can pretend to do that, but it’s a bit like pseudo-profound bullshit.
Humans are just flesh computers, but LLMs are just guessing what a human would say, not coming up with something new. AI art is the same way.
Once AI can think for itself, legitimately, I think AI art can be considered art, and that’s a long way away.
Yeah, in particular, Generative AI does not yet perceive reality for itself. It does not yet live a life. It does not go through hardships. It doesn’t have stories to tell that it itself experienced.
It’s able to regurgitate and remix stories that were meaningful at some point, and superficially one might not even be able to tell the difference, but if you want to hear a genuinely meaningful story, there’s no way yet around sourcing it from a human.
Generative AI is able to create pretty/entertaining artworks, but no expressive art.
That’s a beautiful quote. Through truth are we connected to our reality.
That’s why so many people are bent on clinging to ‘alternative facts’ in a false plane of reality.
So is this a flowery way of saying “standing on the show of giants”? Everything we do is inspired by that which came before?
This is only if you don’t have a decent art style.
That’ll be the 10% I guess!
I remember when photoshop became widely available and the art community collectively declared it the death of art. To put the techniques of master artists in the hand of anyone who can use a mouse would put the painter out of business. I watched as the news fumed and fired over delinquents photoshopping celebrity nudes, declaring that we’ll never be able to trust a photo again. I saw the cynical ire of views as the same news shopped magazine images for the vanity of their guests and the support of their political views. Now, the dust long settled, photoshop is taught in schools and used by designer globally. Photo manipulation is so prevalent that you probably don’t realize your phone camera is preprogrammed to cover your zits and remove your loose hairs. It’s a feature you have to actively turn off. The masters of their craft are still masters, the need for a painted canvas never went away. We laugh at obvious shop jobs in the news, and even our out of touch representatives know when am image is fake.
The world, as it seems, has enough room for a new tool. As it did again with digital photography, the death of the real photographers. As it did with 3D printing, the death of the real sculptors and carvers. As it did with synth music, the death of the real musician. When the dust settles on AI, the artist will be there to load their portfolio into the trainer and prompt out a dozen raw ideas before picking the composition they feel is right and shaping it anew. The craft will not die. The world will hate the next advancement, and the cycle will repeat.
Okay, I’m gonna prelude this by saying I’m sorry. I was just doing some fact checking and what was meant to be a small comment on plagiarism ended up being a huge critic of your comment. I don’t actually disagree with you. I actually think you make some good arguments and if I were arguing your point, I would probably make similar arguments. Anyways, I probably have brain worms because I spent Way too long on this. At least I had fun researching this topic.
This is such a complicated topic, and I feel like you oversimplified the problem that is at hand, which trivialised the plight of artists. I believe your post doesn’t include many of the issues which artists have with generative tools.
I believe you missed out on is the discussion about plagiarism. Likewise, I believe that generative AI (like DALLE) cannot be compared to previous tools due to the issue of plagiarism. While there isn’t conclusive evidence on whether AI art is plagiarising artists, there is a pretty good argument for.
Rutkowski is a Polish digital artist who uses classical painting styles to create dreamy fantasy landscapes. … His distinctive style is now one of the most commonly used prompts in the new open-source AI art generator Stable Diffusion [1]
Rutkowski was initially surprised but thought it might be a good way to reach new audiences. Then he tried searching for his name to see if a piece he had worked on had been published. The online search brought back work that had his name attached to it but wasn’t his. [1]
Stålenhag is known for haunting paintings that blend natural landscapes with the eerie futurism of giant robots, mysterious industrial machines, and alien creatures. Earlier this week, Stålenhag appeared to experience some dystopian dread of his own when he found that artificial intelligence had been used to mimic his style [2].
A big issue I have with your comment is the statement “We laugh at obvious shop jobs in the news, and even our out of touch representatives know when am image is fake.”. There is a huge amount of evidence and studies online talking about exactly how bad people are at this. Furthermore, there is evidence of scammers using generative AI tools to trick people, which is only possible if these tools are easily accessible and hard to tell apart.
In a study published last month in the journal Scientific Reports, scientists showed 201 participants a mix of AI- and human-generated images and gauged their responses based on factors like age, gender, and attitudes toward technology. The team found that the older participants were more likely to believe that AI-generated images were made by humans. [3]
scammers have wielded increasingly sophisticated generative AI tools to go after older adults. They can use deepfake audio and images sourced from social media to pretend to be a grandchild calling from jail for bail money, or even falsify a relative’s appearance on a video call. [3]
Studies have also found that people can tell the difference between AI generated images and real images only 61% of the time [4].
Another issue with your comment is the statement “The masters of their craft are still masters, the need for a painted canvas never went away.”. You point to serval new technologies as evidence, suggesting that if these new technologies didn’t stop the need for artists, then nothing will. Unlike these previous tools, generative tools are in direct competition with artists[5]. With generative art is in direct competition with artists and is far easier to master, generative AI art trivialises the work of artists which devalues the work of masters.
Finally! On artists incorporating AI tools into their workflows. This is just speculation, and you cannot state this with any finality. There is evidence in either direction. For example, interpolation in animation[6] [7] or this paper/survey I found.
They conclude that visual artists found it hard to actually incorporate TTIG into their creative works in its current form [8]
Don’t apologize, this level of discussion is exactly what I came to the table hoping for.
I will say, my stance is less about the now and more about the here to come. I agree wholly with the issues of plagiarism, especially when he comes to personal styles. I also recognize the vivid swath of other crimes that this tech can be used for. Moreover, corporations are pushing it far too fast and hard and the end result of that can only by bad.
However, I hold a small hope that these are just the growing pains, the bruised thumbs enviable when learning to swing a hammer. We forget that photoshop was used to cyber bully teens with fake nudes. We look past the fields of logos made by uncles that didn’t want to pay for a graphic designer, the company websites made by the same mindless managers that now use AI to solve all their problems. Eventually, the next product will come and only those who found genuine use will remain.
AI is different in so many ways, but it’s also the same. Instead of fighting for it’s regulation, we need to regulate ourselves and our uses of it. We can’t expect anyone with the power to do something to have our best interest at heart.
When it comes to AI art, the Photoshop/invention of the camera argument doesn’t really compare because there’s really 2 or 3 things people are actually upset about, and it’s not the tool itself. It’s the way the data is sourced, the people who are using it/what they’re using it for, and the lack of meaning behind the art.
As somebody said elsewhere in here, sampling for music is done from pre-made content explicitly for use as samples or used under license. AI art generators do neither. They fill their data sets with art used without permission and no licensing, and given the right prompting, you can get them to spit out that data verbatim.
This compounds into the next issue, the people using it, and more specifically, how those people are using it. If it was being used as a tool to help make the creation process more efficient or easier, that would be one thing. But it’s largely being used by people to replace the artist and people who think that being able to prompt an image and use it unedited makes them just as good an artist as anybody working by hand, stylus, etc. They’re “idea” guys, who care nothing for the process and only the output (and how much that output is gonna cost). But anybody can be an “idea” guy, it’s the work and knowledge that makes the difference between having an idea for a game and releasing a game on Steam. To the creative, creating art (regardless of the kind - music, painting, stories, whatever) is as much about the work as it is the final piece. It’s how they process life, the same as dreaming at night. AI bros are the middle managers of the art world - taking credit for the work of others while thinking that their input is the most important part.
And for the last point, as Adam Savage said on why he doesn’t like AI art (besides the late-stage capitalism bubble of it putting people out of work), “They lack, I think they lack a point of view. I think that’s my issue with all the AI generated art that I can see is…the only reason I’m interested in looking at something that got made is because that thing that got made was made with a point of view. The thing itself is not as interesting to me as the mind and heart behind the thing and I have yet to see in AI…I have yet to smell what smells like a point of view.” He later goes on to talk about how at some point a student film will come out that does something really cool with AI (and then Hollywood will copy it into the ground until it’s stale and boring). But we are not at that point yet. AI art is just Content. In the same way that corporate music is Content. Shallow and vapid and meaningless. Like having a machine that spits out elevator music. It may be very well done elevator music on a technical level, but it’s still just elevator music. You can take that elevator music and do something cool with it (like Vaporwave), but on its own, it exists merely for the sake of existing. It doesn’t tell a story or make a statement. It doesn’t have any context.
To quote Bennett Foddy in one of the most rage inducing games of the past decade, “For years now, people have been predicting that games would soon be made out of prefabricated objects, bought in a store and assembled into a world. And for the most part that hasn’t happened, because the objects in the store are trash. I don’t mean that they look bad or that they’re badly made, although a lot of them are - I mean that they’re trash in the way that food becomes trash as soon as you put it in a sink. Things are made to be consumed in a certain context, and once the moment is gone, they transform into garbage. In the context of technology, those moments pass by in seconds. Over time, we’ve poured more and more refuse into this vast digital landfill that we call the internet. It now vastly outweighs the things that are fresh, untainted and unused. When everything around us is cultural trash, trash becomes the new medium, the lingua franca of the digital age. You could build culture out of trash, but only trash culture. B-games, B-movies, B-music, B-philosophy.”
That is precisely it. Generative AI is a tool, just like a digital canvas over a physical canvas, just like a canvas over a cave wall. As it has always been, the ones best prepared to adapt to this new tool are the artists. Instead of fighting the tool, we need to learn how to best use it. No AI, short of a true General Intelligence, will ever be able to make the decisions inherent to illustration, but it can get you close enough to the final vision so as to skip the labor intensive part.
Brilliantly expressed. Thank you
So which story is Jesus on the cross in a jar of piss?
I’m guessing #1, but this sounds like a load of #2, so…
100 years? Square those numbers mate. Hell, cube them!
So time os not linear, but cubic?! That’s why I’m always late. I’m just in a different time place
Makes more sense than the antis in this thread!
This Creativity-Detraction fetish must be studied…
This sounds like the kind of shit you’d hear in that “defending AI art” community on Reddit or whatever. A bunch of people bitching that their prompts aren’t being treated equally to traditional art made by humans.
Make your own fucking AI art galleries if you’re so desperate for validation.
Also, this argument reeks of “I found x instances of derivative art today. That must mean there’s no original art in the world anymore”.
Miss me with that shit.
No, I’m not part of Reddit in general, if I were I wouldn’t be on that community.
The fact that I specifically said 90% refutes your other, incorrect, assumption.
On the internet, no one knows what a dog you are unless you display it.
Sir this is a meme community
