The other day, my parents asked me (22M) if there were any women that I find attractive (I guess because they’re paranoid about me being gay lol) and I told them yes, there’s a fair number of women that I’ve seen in public that I’ve found attractive.
They asked me, “Do you talk to any of them?” and I said “No??? It’s inappropriate to approach women in public unless you have business with them.”
I told them that it is only appropriate for a man to talk to a woman he doesn’t know when the social situation is explicitly designed for meeting strangers—dating apps, hobby groups, meeting friends of friends, etc. In my view, cold approaching women you don’t know just because you’re attracted to them is harassment.
My parents told me that I’m being ridiculous and making excuses because I’m nervous. They are adamant that I need to learn to approach women or else I will never find a partner. I told them that times have changed and this is disrespectful and potentially predatory behavior along the lines of unsolicited flirting and catcalling. Approaching women is a violation of their personal space and could make them feel very uncomfortable, especially if they feel like they don’t have an easy way out.
My parents are almost 60 and they are very conservative, so they don’t exactly follow progressive discourse, and I feel like they’re super out of touch on this as a result. Particularly, my mom tends to strike up conversations with other women in public, and she’s skeptical when I tell her that I can’t do the same thing because I’m a man and would be viewed as a potential predator.
But I also don’t get out much, which makes me second-guess how distorted my understanding of the social world is from reality. My parents are like a broken clock, and sometimes they DO have a point about something despite 90% of their opinions being insane. Maybe there is a more nuanced reality that I’m not picking up on.
So I wanted to ask here. Are my parents out of touch? Am I out of touch? Are we both wrong? I want to know your opinion.
I’m like a dozen years older than you, and still have this conversation with my parents about jobs. They want me to cold call people and stalk them and stuff. Really wild stuff.
Your parents are wrong in basically every way. Except, yeah, you should be capable of cold approaching anybody. Not to sexually harass them, but for normal things like, “excuse me have you seen a grey glasses case around here?”
Your parents are not out of touch entirely, as this is a culture thing. Largely a generational one, but still, an existing culture. I personally do not believe it good, but I’m also somewhat like you, except 3,000% queer, poly, and engaged. Sometimes I wish guys would just show up and shoot their shots. Be respectful and accept defeat, but still shoot them. Years ago (when I was about 25), I used to work sort of near a bar and this random dude from a bar somehow made his way to me, working, which was, again, fairly far away by foot. And he REALLY wanted to take me home, putting on all the charm and offers. Which was flattering and all, but I wasn’t interested and was forced to steadily increase my level of rejections, plus I was still working. My really cool boss apparently overhead and saw a bit of it, and after the guy finally left (honestly like 30 minutes of him trying), we talked a bit about it and had a good laugh. The guy really just couldn’t take a hint. Luckily though, he was a little guy and where I worked was very open and very well lit and so there was no threat.
I think that there’s a time and place for everything. That you need to be comfortable in being yourself, and have your own drive and reasons for the things you do. Your parents ARE trying to help you, but often exacerbate their kids by pushing too hard or not putting ANY effort to learn or meet their kids even halfway.
And then you have to take into account that, yeah, people really ARE all different. I know girls who wouldn’t want to be cold approached at all, for any reason. I know guys that way, too.
But I also know people that wish they’d be swept off their feet by a price charming or hulk or something. Honestly, I’m kinda that way, but with the duality that as much as I fantasize the forceful, having it be by somebody I don’t accept is terrifying and horrifying. And that’s not on any one specific thing - people are weird and have all their own unique, weird, internal, intuitive flags and needs. Be it a political alignment, a philosophy, an interest, an appreciation, an open mind, wanderlust, a sexual dynamic, a certain look, a certain feature, a familiarity, an unfamiliarity, for them to be monog or poly, a smell, certain kinds of armpits, tabs vs spaces, etc, whatever.
We are all different, is my point.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. And you, as it seems, are not a seeker type. So, you should focus on what you want in a partner and who you are and want to be. You can listen to your parents a little, but realize that, they, too, besides from being your parents, are just some random ass people with some opinions they’ve formed by their own unique vision, through their own unique bodies and personalities - what works/worked for them may ONLY work for them, and that’s fine. It doesn’t make it better or worse than what works for you. I say, try it, at least once, and be prepared to apologize, and then learn from it. You’re only young once.
The key is to be respectful.
Also, have you tried… 🫴 femboys? ;)
If you wouldn’t strike up a conversation with a guy, don’t strike up a conversation with a woman. Be comfortable with conversations with strangers of whatever gender with no ulterior motive, and you’ll meet more people.
If you meet more people, your likelihood of finding dates will increase as a side effect.
If you are only approaching women, particularly women you find attractive, in places that are not generally for that purpose (bars, parties, swingers clubs), then you’re being a creep.
But regardless, it’s better to have interests, pursue those interests, and meet people with similar interests. Because when you have interests, you might become interesting, and someone might become interested.
I agree with everything else but the starting bit about only starting conversations when you’d also do it with a guy: if you’re not into guys… like on a dating site you’d not equally talk to the men, why at a sports club if you’re wanting a relationship with a woman? If you think someone’s fun and attractive in a way you’d simply not have with a bloke, hecking yes talk to them where appropriate and be friends (if they also want to be) and see if they really match and are also into you etc.
I think they meant “if you’re only approaching people you want to fuck, you’re not going to find success”
I have lots of advice but I haven’t so much as held someone’s hand since 2005. So about twenty years now.
The only advice I have is find women your age and ask your questions to them. See what they say. Then go from there.
The unsatisfying answer: you’re both a little bit right.
You’re correct that times have changed somewhat. But I think it’s overkill to say that “approaching women at all unless you have business with them is disrespectful and borderline harassment”.
Of course, context matters a lot. Don’t bother women at their jobs, the bank is not a lady zoo. But in a social situation where you would expect to meet other people, it’s fine to strike up a conversation with strangers or even ask them out.
However, by your own admission you don’t get out much. So I’m assuming you don’t get a lot of situations like bars or parties where this would happen. So I would try networking in your community, develop some hobbies, go to functions where you might meet someone in this manner.
Also, if you’re ugly or poor, it’s always unwanted and disrespectful. Whether or not you’re ugly or even poor is up to them not you, so you have no way to ever know beforehand.
Women in general have made this so fucking difficult for men that it really should be mandatory for them to approach us at this point just to avoid issues.
I’m married, but worried about my sons getting in trouble for ever trying to approach a woman outside of a bar at this point, it seems the only place where asking a girl out randomly is still allowed at this point.
That sounds like some incel shit right there. But since you said you’re married I’m forced to assume that you came by your misogyny honest?
This is Ask Lemmy not Ask Incels.
Let’s not attribute this to all women. This is both imposed and from the consumer culture of the patriarchal system. Less often, when it is radical feminism - here it is simply hatred of a man simply because he is a man… I am a girl, and I often see radical feminism… Especially in the post-Soviet space… It’s a wild horror… Especially those raised by mercantile princesses… If I were relaxing in a bar, I definitely wouldn’t want to see a man I didn’t know at that time. Why do you need parks, cafeterias, libraries and just the embankment?
You just made it worse, you’re saying that there’s nowhere a man can ask safely.
Like I said, it should be mandatory for women to be the one to approach at this point.
Where did I say that? There are drunk people in the bar, and they don’t always want to meet you. Yes, there are those who are only thirsty for acquaintances, but often they themselves will take the initiative. I suggested a list - cafes, parks, embankments, etc. It’s not always pleasant to talk to people who have been drinking, especially when it’s not part of the group.
If you walk up to random people in a cafe, park, or embankment (really?) and ask for their numbers, you could get a positive response, but it’s equally likely that a women (or even a group) will start yelling at you for doing so.
That’s what I’m saying about nowhere to ask safely. Some women will be totally fine with being approached, and others will not, but there is ZERO way to indicate to others that information.
We need to bring back the whole gay handkerchief system and adapt it to the whole population, If everyone wore an accessory or object that indicates your willingness(or not) to be approached it would make the whole situation 100% better. Like a stoplight party, but all the time and with slightly less impact on your whole wardrobe.
there is ZERO way to indicate to others that information.
Ah, you’re getting to a challenge that women have faced forever: “If I reject this man, will he decide to attack or kill me?” (Sources: 1, 2, 3, 4,5, 6)
Or just in general the concept that’s been named “Schrodingers Rapist.”
It would be a whole lot safer for many people if there was an automatic way to see into someone’s soul to know what they are like and what they are capable of. Are they a rapist? Do they have the potential to be? Will they reject me violently? Will they publicly humiliate me?
None of us can know those things. The best we can do is to try to establish strong social skills and pattern recognition, and work to avoid the situations that put us in danger (whether physical, social, or emotional). It’s hard and there’s no silver bullet.
While you want to put the onus on women to minimize the risk of a man being publicly humiliated, you’re ignoring the realities that women are dealing with the exact same kind of uncertainties (except statistically speaking, with much worse outcomes). There isn’t an easy answer here and it’s not one that falls on just one gender to resolve.
Im not ignoring the problem women have at all, I’m suggesting that if they want men to stop asking, they take the onus upon themselves to initiate.
You’re the one blaming men as being rapists here, not me. Maybe go talk to someone, you clearly have issues.
If you walk up to random people in a cafe, park, or embankment (really?) and ask for their numbers
So I think this is the disconnect. This isn’t window shopping; you’re trying to connect with another human being. You need to take the time to talk with her, see if she shows interest by engaging and encouraging the conversation, and if there’s any commonality or chemistry between you.
Then, if you think there could be something there, offer to give your number rather than ask for hers. It will help her feel safer with you, and she can choose whether or not to accept and if she takes it, she can choose whether or not to follow up. It puts the onus on her to move things forward.
I’m 40, and married. This isn’t about me.
You still don’t get it through, you say talk to them first, but thay limits when you can even start a conversation to very limited locations and certainly doesn’t include your suggestions around a park or embankment.
You are absolutely right. What kind of idiot would just walk up to you and take your number? Like if a girl just came up to you and you’d react normally? Even without knowing who she is and why she needs your number… 🤦🏼♀️ The man is clearly strange and obsessed with phone numbers…
What the hell is this exaggeration? You just go and exaggerate everything!
If you need a meeting party, go ahead and organize one. But it is logical that no one will give out a phone number during social networks! It is not 90 or 00 (depending on the level of development of the country). After all, everyone has the right to refuse an acquaintance! It is not an obligation. But to answer your question, a small conversation is quite enough. And during the conversation you will understand whether there is any sense.
Gay, ok. So he’s just looking for a girlfriend, not a girlfriend. (Fucking English… 1 friend, 2 relationships) Why then meet on the street? There are plenty of different fan fiction sites, plenty of groups on themes where you can find people who are quite tolerant of gays and lesbians. You apparently have no idea what it’s like in other countries… Today the easiest way to meet someone is the Internet. And not the street. After all, many do not accept people who violate their personal space. I won’t even mention those who already have a developed culture of “man = rapist”… It’s generally difficult to understand what some individuals have brought women…
Your reading comprehension is very low. You should work on that before arguing with people. When I suggested the handkerchief system, the word gay was indicating a specific system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handkerchief_code) that had previously existed that you clearly are not aware of, which is made clear by the fact that I said it should be adapted to the whole population.
Yelling at people in your second language after not understanding the arguments being made is not helpful.
"it should be mandatory for women to "
Is a wild thing to put in absolutely any sentence.
Why?
It’s mandatory for all men to register for the selective service system in the US, and women don’t have to.
Sometimes things be like that.
I also disagree with conscription. But even if you think it’s a good idea, you’re equating a national service requirement to mandating women speak to men (presumably many of whom they have no interest in). This is just getting wilder and wilder.
What? who suggested women initiate dating conversations with men they have no interest in?
When I say women should have to approach men, I mean that men should not ask, and women should do the asking if they are interested to avoid any issues with women not wanting to be approached. Why the fuck would it mean anything else?
I’m married
That poor woman.
men* have made this so fucking difficult
for menFTFY
Men caused the problem, women overreacted.
As is tradition.
Sexist comment.
It really is. It actually makes me sad. I’m the grown daughter of a father who sounds a lot like the person you responded to. I love my dad and it’s a complicated relationship as he really doesn’t think he’s a misogynist, he truly believes he’s just “telling it like it is.”
It made me furious for years and now it deeply saddens me. He will never have the chance to truly know his daughter because he is literally incapable of seeing me as an equal in terms of basic humanity. And that is sad because I’m delightful and smart and wickedly funny when I’m comfortable with someone, he doesn’t get to see the authentic version of his own offspring, what a loss…
I’m sorry to hear that, that’s an awful situation to be in. I’m also not close with my parents because they say heinous shit that i can’t stand and support the red team and religion.
What a fucked up world we live in.Chosen family > inherited family
Totally disagree on so many points. Women haven’t made things difficult, if anything men (historically) have done so because women haven’t been given a choice.
But the narrative that if you’re ugly or poor anything you do is unwanted is just not true. It’s an idea pushed by those in their parents basement justifying why they don’t have a girlfriend.
Teach your son that no means no, and when an uncomfortable woman might mean “no” without saying it, and he’ll be fine. Respect for the wishes of others takes care of 99.9999% of any trouble.
You’re just plain wrong. I’ve seen men yelled at for asking politely in “acceptable” social situations.
You can pretend it’s not happening, but that doesn’t change the fact that it occurs regularly.
The problem isn’t that No isn’t being respected, it’s that women are getting offended at even being asked.
Anyone, of either gender, would react negatively to someone interacting with them with the energy and perspective you’re displaying here.
If you think that type of reaction is common, I suggest looking at the common denominator.
What the fuck does my energy level have to do with anything.
I’ve never had to ask a girl out in my life, I’ve been married to only my second relationship for more than half my life, and both ladies approached me.
If you have to ask what your energy/demeanor has to do with women being comfortable with you, you should probably be quiet on this subject.
Or maybe you should stop, because you’re making about as much sense as a potato.
If someone yelled about asking politely in an acceptable social situation, then they were wrong. That is not normal.
That being said, given your prior comment, which just screams “incel, mgtow, etc”, I’m gonna go ahead and doubt you saw what you say you did.
It is a regular occurrence. Regular enough that it’s been reflected in popular media for decades. They even make entire movies about “boy gets rejected by popular girl, boy transforms himself to win her over, boy decides he doesn’t need her anymore because she’s mean”
Are you honestly so naive that you think those initial rejections don’t happen in real life? Everyone saw them at high school, and everyone saw them even more on social media when said girl spreads it around to cyberbully the boy even more. It’s been more than 20 years since I was at high school, and even when we didn’t have cellphones that shit still happened, and it didn’t stop at University either.
> entire movies about “boy gets rejected by popular girl, boy transforms himself to win her over, boy decides he doesn’t need her anymore because she’s mean”
@BlameThePeacock can you name any? I’ve never seen such a plot.
So your examples are “things that happened to me in high school”, and “movies which are obviously real”?
Again I’m going to have to ask you to leave your basement and interact with real people. You are wrong.
Do you think highschool isn’t real?
We aren’t talking about 40 year olds dating here grandm.
I agree. But the thing with women… Oh, I wish you could visit the post-Soviet countries. Especially Belarus, Russia, Ukraine… You would be amazed by what’s there.
Mr. Tate is that you?
Creepy
Oh and what’s there, subservient “trad wives”? Get out of your basement and stop blaming others for your problems.
Are you talking to me??? Let’s start with the fact that I am a woman. And what do you mean by “traditional women”?
How have women made it difficult for men?
The social expectation was that the man approaches, but now enough women have said that isn’t acceptable in so many situations that it’s no longer safe to do so in practically any situation.
Now men who want a relationship can essentially only find one by either being an asshole and asking when they shouldn’t, or using a dating app which is a massive waste of men’s time.
How is it unsafe for a man to approach a woman in a social situation?
“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.” —Margaret Atwood
I think the guy you’re responding to is well down the path of believing that it’s “unsafe” to be laughed at.
And you’re so far down a path that you think getting laughed at is an acceptable response to someone asking you out.
Which one is more toxic?
I don’t think laughing at someone is an acceptable response to any person being respectful to another person, and your assumption that I am saying that from my comment shows more about you than me.
Anyone who would laugh at another person just because of how they look or how much money they appear to have is a flawed, unkind person.
Anyone who approaches another person and doesn’t respect if they set physical or verbal boundaries showing they don’t want to be approached is also flawed and either socially unaware/challenged or themselves unkind. And sometimes an easy way to get one of those people to go away is to laugh at them.
It’s unlikely for a cold approach to anyone asking for a date to be successful. Unlike 80 years ago, people aren’t looking for their first romantic connection to turn into life-long marriage; they actually want to have an established rapport with a person before the first date. So if someone just asks another person out with no lead up, or in certain settings, sometimes that will be so disconnected from social realities as to be absurd.
Anyway, regardless of the social intricacies of appropriate places to approach and/or ask out another, believing that women (or men) are a monolith who all will react the same way in a given situation is out of touch, disrespectful, and points to a lot of deep-seated sexism. I hope you can work that out before you pass it onto your son or he’s likely to have a much harder time finding a relationship.
I get the feeling old mate here does not find himself in actual social situations with women very often.
The social expectation was that the man approaches, but now enough women have said that isn’t acceptable in so many situations that it’s no longer safe to do so in practically any situation.
AKA, “A, B, and C aren’t appropriate, so D through Z aren’t safe either!”
Dude rather than accept some much-needed constraints, you’re having a hissy and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
There are people in this thread saying even doing it as a bar isn’t okay anymore. Name one place where a man would be safe asking without potentially being called a creep even just for a polite inquiry. It sounds like there isn’t one anymore.
Not all women would react that way, but it sounds like there are enough women who think that’s an acceptable response even in a bar that it’s nonlonher longer viable.
I do want to be sympathetic, but I have to be honest in that this seems like incel rhetoric to me.
Women are under no obligation to accept the advances of any random person in public, and framing that as a “them” problem is super disrespectful.
Nobody said they have to accept the advances. I’m saying that by restricting those advances in general, it should put the onus on women to make the advance. They can’t ask men to stop asking everywhere, then complain or be confused when men aren’t asking them out and this is something that is actively happening right now.
I’ve never heard a woman complain or be confused about not being asked out by strangers.
It seems like your sources are a fair step into the manosphere, and you and your sons would have a lot to gain by distancing yourself from that kind of influence. Nothing is as unattractive as bitterness, and you are sounding dangerously close to bitter here, and your attitude will influence your sons approach to life and relationships.
It’s been showing up on YouTube a lot in my feed all of a sudden. Like, past two weeks… some blonde lady men’s advocate trying to explain male behavior to women. She’s an interesting watch, seems more often correct than not (anecdotally).
There was a woman actually complaining about not getting cat-called anymore too. That one was a jaw dropper; but people like that are absolutely out there.
The Dadvocate? Sounds like the YouTuber you’re describing.
Emily W. King.
You’re using anecdotal data, I have actually heard a woman say “why won’t he just ask me out” and that isn’t useful data either.
It keeps coming up in dating studies though, which are useful, and frequently point out that women are complaining or confused about why it’s happening.
I think you will find that “why won’t he just ask me out” is not said about total strangers on the bus etc.
Why is Jackson Lamb arguing for anything nuanced or subtle?
I dunno, this may just be my own sensibilities clouding reality, but I don’t think the “onus” should be on anyone.
Men are more and more frequently getting in trouble for even just asking, which means they need to stop entirely or risk getting in trouble.
Either women take responsibility for asking the men out, or accept that they’re not going to get asked out except by assholes who ignore the risks and are statistically upsetting a lot of women before they succeed.
deleted by creator
That makes it worse.
I disagree. Although I’m taken I was at a bar hanging with friends and, when I was getting a drink alone, a gal at the bar was totally giving me the “hit on me” eyes.
10 years ago I wouldn’t have seen it or acknowledged it, now that I’ve built more confidence with women I see it more often. That and, anecdotally, when you’re in a relationship women seem to come at you more often.
OP already accounted for social situations where you would expect to meet people, though, and his parents seem to think that he should be approaching people in other situations—like in a store, or on the street. I’d be very cautious about that.
Yeah, I specifically mentioned to my parents seeing an attractive employee stocking shelves in the grocery store, and they said that I should have approached her. She was clearly busy when I passed by her. I just kept my distance and casually thought, “Wow, there are plenty of fish in the sea. I’ll definitely find one eventually, in a more appropriate social setting.”
Not once did it cross my mind to strike up a conversation with a busy employee, but they insisted that I should have. In my mind, the fact that it’s easy to find women that I find attractive is proof that I don’t need to go out of my way for one. Attraction is not a quick time event; to me, it’s a reminder of abundance, of just how many chances I have to find someone. I don’t need to do silly stunts or disrupt busy people. I just need to keep creating social opportunities for it to happen organically, and eventually it will. I think my parents saying that I have to chat up every woman that I find attractive no matter where is silly and neurotic. I believe being patient and not stressing over every “missed opportunity” is the best way to go.
Besides, this thread is proof that I’m not ready for a girlfriend in the first place. It would be great for me to practice talking to strangers casually and making some friends first. That way, I can get comfortable talking to people in general and build my confidence.
‘you know, you shouldn’t be in the frozen food section… because you could melt all this stuff!’
Yeah, definitely don’t bother people at work.
like in a store or on the street.
Well yeah, I think that’s part of what’s being said. I would say that in a store, or cafe is totally fine. On the street is a little weird, but in most public places it’s fine.
As usual, the nuanced answer that doesn’t oversimplify the complexities is the best one. Good answer.
I bet women 30-40 years ago would have loved to see this answer too. It’s a good thing that the world has changed in this regard.
Personally I think everyone is wrong here, but none of it in a mean or jerky way, just in perspective .
For your parents, it’s definitely a different vibe now, we need to be more socially conscious about walking up to a woman, we should understand that that is inherently a dangerous place for a woman and she is likely on her guard.
That being said, you shouldn’t be afraid to speak to women either, that is likely just as bad. Women are just people, they have like and dislikes, and you should talk to them the same way you would anyone.
So, I guess what I’m saying is that the days of pickup lines and sauntering over are gone. But there’s absolutely nothing wrong striking up a conversation either, and in fact I encourage it. Notice things, maybe they’re wearing a band T-shirt of a band you like, maybe they have a cool sticker on their phone or laptop, show interest. Don’t be afraid of them.
Do you ever make small talk with men with whom “you don’t have business?”
I’m assuming yes, you probably do. Speaking with women is the same, just be sure to pick up on cues if they don’t want to speak. In fact, I’d advise you to practice by making small talk with everyone you can, with no agenda, and pay attention to their cues.
Ok. But not everywhere is it accepted to have “small talk”…
I guess, but based upon his parents advice it sounds like it is where OP is.
The amount of times I’ve been in a pleasant conversation with a dude and when it becomes apparent I’m not available, they just immediately stop talking to me. Like… what? It’s abrupt, obvious, and super shitty to do to someone. And for the readers making assumptions about the scenarios–this wasn’t in a bar or a social event. It’s just random places in public where two people might make small talk.
I hope everyone takes your advice. Just talk to people to talk to people, without a transactional goal. Worst case scenario, you practice your conversation skills. Best case, you meet cool people and sometimes those people might want to meet up again or start texting etc. Boom a new friend that could be a relationship if you both are into it. Or you can just collect cool friends.
Disclaimer: This is for relationships and not just people to fuck. Go to places where other people are looking for that if you want to speed run fucking (bars, clubs, mixers, anime cons, etc.), which is totally fine.
just be sure to pick up on cues
Yeah. About that…
Actually, I don’t. I am far more afraid of talking to men. All of the male family members I grew up around were violent. I was punched or choked as a kid if I did anything to offend them. And so, I learned to never do anything that could possibly provoke them for fear of what would happen to me. My mother also sometimes used corporal punishment on me, so I also learned to expect violence from women if they become angry.
So it seems like I have a general fear of offending people because, besides hurting others emotionally, I always expect violence to follow. The easiest way to avoid offending strangers is to never engage with them, and so that is the position I take by default. I don’t want to bother anymore.
And this is why I asked this question. I am now self-aware of the fact that I have a completely distorted hyper-paranoid mental model of social dynamics where negative reactions have nuclear consequences and must be avoided at all costs. At the same time, I know that most of my parents’ takes are pretty bad, but there is an occasional kernel of truth in what they say. I thought that this was likely to be one of those situations, so I wanted to see if others could help point out the nuance.
So far, I have lived my entire life under the fear of violence. It prevented countless friendships and social interactions from ever happening. I avoided everything bad at the cost of everything good, and it left me with nothing. That prevented me from learning a lot of common sense social norms, like when small talk is even appropriate. I just assume that it never is, and people would rather stare at their phones than ever talk to a stranger. I guess I’m wrong about that.
Oh nooooo
So sorry those losers were not just losers but also abusers (no offense to good memories you have or good parts of them, if any, just covering my bases here b/c life’s complicated)
Would you like to try to build back some confidence here? Elderly folks can be so very sweet (and/or lonely). Next time you’re at a crosswalk and see someone who couldn’t even suddenly dive at you fast enough to make physical contact, you could broach a conversation.
stare at their phones
Maybe we’d rather, but it’s kinda killing us at least in a sense
Published today: https://www.afterbabel.com/p/on-the-death-of-daydreaming
tl;dr interrupting me when I’m on my phone is probably chill (maybe I’ll thank you, or excuse myself if I’m sending a work email/thing)
“Ninja” edit: before folks come @ me for the phone interruption thing (for good reason), mainly advocating for building up those small talk skills that abusers hampered through NO fault of your own
You don’t need a date. You need therapy.
That’s a lot to process and unlearn tbh. I honestly wouldn’t worry about romantic or flirting interactions at this stage and maybe just practice lower stakes social interaction, yes like small talk. Like anything, conversation takes practice and you get better at it the more you do it. But the reality is, you can’t go into a situation expecting perfection. You will say something awkward or embarrassing at some point because that’s just human nature. We all have. Coping with that sort of thing is a necessary experience and skill. Maybe you could try going to an event geared for socializing and just challenge yourself to have two conversations, with no goal in mind. I think I would get used to casual interactions before attempting to figure out romantic ones.
Wow, I’m sorry for the abuse that’s led you to the level of fear you live in. Of course it’s going to be hard for you to start any kind of connection with someone who might have a potential romantic component if you aren’t able to connect to people who don’t have that potential.
If you’re looking for broader advice, I’d recommend getting into some social groups for hobbies or business-type things. Board gaming, hiking, maker space, Toastmasters, cons; anything that gets you out of the house and meeting people.
Once in those groups, start socializing in general. Get more comfortable meeting people and establishing friendships. Realize that not everyone you meet will respond with violence and there are better people out there.
You won’t frequently get far if you aren’t in social settings where people are trying to meet other people; 95+% of the time any interaction like that is likely to be a one-off. But if you’re confident and friendly, sometimes it’s not. It is NOT predatory to still talk to people outside of those settings, but if you only talk to people you’re physically attracted to then it’s borderline weird and could be a bit predatory.
As you build the skill of talking to anyone and everyone, you’ll also develop better communication skills and more confidence (which, btw, happens to be one of the most attractive traits). And you might just find in the process of doing so that only talking to people you find physically attractive upfront isn’t the best way to meet a potential partner.
I’m genuinely sorry your family hasn’t helped you learn these skills and has actively undermined you in a way that makes it more difficult. Whether it’s a romantic interest, friendships, or your career, working on these skills will help you become a better person.
The easiest way to avoid offending strangers is to never engage with them, and so that is the position I take by default. I don’t want to bother anymore.
I assume you recognize that isn’t a tenable position long term. If you’re looking to start growing from that point I have a suggestion.
This isn’t quite clear and definite, but there can be a small social gift you give to people when you have a small problem that they can easily solve. It takes a fair amount of time to develop this to know the boundaries and limits, but I’ll give you an easy one: Ask for the time
Just about any random stranger, when you are both at a location for a clearly legitimate reason (bus stop, grocery store, post office, etc), will give you the time when asked. This isn’t something to do when at 2AM outside a bar. Needing the time is a benign problem that everyone has had at one time in their lives, and its something nearly everyone in modern society can solve. The interaction is so easy its rote. Keep your distance and catch their attention (if they aren’t clearly focused on something else):
You: Excuse me, my phone died. Do you have the time?
Them: (Possibly sizing you up) Uhh, its 5:37
You: Thank you, I appreciate it.
Then you walk away. Practice that with people around until it doesn’t feel uncomfortable.
So, this is one of the unfortunate traps of our time, especially if you live in a place with car dependent sprawl. Women don’t want to be solicited while at work or on personal business (groceries, gym, etc), and, really, nobody does. You want to work at work, and you want to do your business and go home otherwise. This goes doubly or triply so for complete strangers. There’s really no third places (as they’re called) left, where people go for the express purpose of being social and together. That’s what’s missing here. As someone else said, you are, unfortunately, both a little right.
It’s particularly bad in places like the US that have car dependent sprawl because
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cities often have had their zoning ordinances weaponized by NIMBYs, and it’s probably outright illegal to have a small cafe or shop in your neighborhood, or they’re required to have some outrageous parking minimum or something like that.
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driving sucks more than you may be aware of while you’re doing it. If you have to get into your car to go to the grocery, you don’t want to make five stops at smaller grocers throughout the week; you’d rather just make one big stop at the big box mart and just go tf home. If you want to stop at a cafe, well, just swing through the starbucks drive through so you don’t have to be bothered with getting out.
Well, chances are that most of your interactions at chain businesses and stores are anonymous, so you’re not meeting other people in your community there, you’re not creating any bonds or relationships there, you’re doing your business and getting out, which, frankly, is what they want. You’re especially not making any friends in the drive thru line. For nearly seventy years now, we’ve built our cities to be homes to cars, not people, and it’s bearing fruit in the form of the loneliness epidemic.
My advice to you would be to go out of your way to find situations where people are getting together for the purpose of being social or having fun. Look for classes put on by your local city parks, go check your local library’s bulletin board for events, check social media communities for your nearby city or town for groups that meet regularly. If you’re religious, seek out some religious institutions that you find palatable.
very well said. just moved away from Dallas for this very reason. it’s strange to be living right on top of so many people and yet paradoxically feel so isolated from all of them. cars are a scourge on human health in nearly every way imaginable
Women don’t want to be solicited while at work or on personal business (groceries, gym, etc),
But they’re fine being solicited while
classes put on by your local city parks, local library’s events, nearby city or town for groups that meet regularly?
Maybe I’m too autistic to understand, but unless those groups are specifically meant for finding a date, it seems to be functionally the same as “personal business.” They’re not interested in being solicited, they just want to have class at class, or book club at book club, or talk about town planning (or whatever these enigmatic town meetings contain) at the meetings. What makes them so different? Even if they’re there to talk (like a book club,) they’re there to talk about books not dating me.
The main difference is that they’re there specifically for the social experience. These folks are not going there to date you, no, but they are going there to socialize, so the barriers to socializing with strangers are greatly lowered. Maybe don’t just go there with dating front and center in your mind; instead focus on just meeting and getting to know people.
I suppose, could be.
Though tbf, I don’t go anywhere “with dating front and center in my mind,” I go places for reasons, and sometimes while at these places I see someone I think is cute and also looks maybe cool, and then dating pops into my mind, like, “oh shit they’re cute, and they look like they might be cool, I wonder if they’d be into me and if it could work out.” Dating is put into my mind by nature of seeing someone I may be interested in dating.
Is that not normal?
That sounds pretty normal to me. Though, in total fairness, I’m ADHD myself, so I feel a lot of what you’ve been saying here. Especially being hyper aware of the social meta. I’ve also learned a lot of advanced masking over the years. Yeah, definitely, if you’re at a social event and someone catches your interest, just start with going and meeting them. Introduce yourself, and a small heartfelt compliment doesn’t hurt, “hey, that was a good question, I wish I’d thought of that”, for example. Also, asking low-risk questions about other people is a good way to endear them to you, “is this your first time going to this class/club? Oh? What got you interested in it?” Etc. These are all pretty good ways to start getting a conversation going so you can get a feel for that person. If it turns out you like that person, you can always offer to trade contact info so you can keep talking, or ask if you could meet somewhere (specific like “the library” or “that coffee shop”) public at a specific time to chat; people tend to be more receptive if you have something specific you want to chat about, even if it’s “getting to know you”. It’s also usually better to put that off until after a second encounter in public, I think. Last, If they ask if it’s a date, be up front, only say “no” or “it doesn’t have to be” if you really mean it. Ofc, YMMV. Best of luck!
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You are both right and you’re both wrong.
I’m right in the middle of yours and your parents age. The dating scene is complete shit today compared to when your parents were in it. I don’t believe they’re likely recognizing how different shit is today vs 30-40 years ago.
I feel like the viewpoint you’re coming from is calculated, safe and fairly accurate for the experiences you’ve likely had in your teen years and early 20’s. More often than not, sticking with what you’ve been doing is going to be considered the more socially graceful, generally appropriate baseline behavior in today’s dating world.
If you were to take the opposite approach, and approach women in places that you’ve previously considered socially unacceptable, there’s a good chance you’d have some success and a good chance you’d deal with some awkward rejections too.
If I were you, I’d try putting myself outside of my comfort zone a couple of times, maybe a city two hours away from where you live. If you’re into anime or comics, go to a con and approach women you’d be uncomfortable approaching otherwise. If you’re into reading at all, go to a bookstore and do this. Everyone needs to eat, supposedly the grocery store is fair game.
Do some social experimenting. Safer to figure out things a bit away from home though if you’re nervous.
First, they need to find better things to worry about. pressing this is exactly how you end up with regrettable relationships. Second, ignore the gender. Treat women like people. If a situation comes up, like someone makes a scene at the front of a line you are both in, strike up a conversation about that. See where it goes. Lasting things occur organically. That being said, “she’s hot and I want to be inside her” is not a good enough reason to strike up a conversation with someone. Appreciate the sight but don’t try to capitalize on it.
Just learn to talk to all people in social situations, and don’t make it transactional.
The right people will just drop into your life naturally.
Great advice. The bit about it not being transactional is very important. Go live your life, chat with everyone to connect to other human beings.
Think the best advice is that when you talk to a woman in public you should have a reason besides her being a woman in public. Like if a man approached me because he thought my shirt looked cool or he saw me reading a book he liked that’s a fine bit of casual conversation. If he just point blank asked if I had a boyfriend as if that’s the only reason a woman wouldn’t want to date a random man she knows nothing about I’d tell him that was none of his business.
It is an important skill and confidence booster to approach people in general in public. If you are uncomfortable with women, then start with men.
If that is still uncomfortable, then that means you are uncomfortable to talking with strangers in general. Unfortunately, experience is the only way to combat this. Start small with chit chat in lines, compliment people on their shoes, etc.
Instructions unclear, now paying for a gay wedding.
dont talk to anyone. eyes glued to the floor. no smiling. in fact, never leave your house ever again.
I think you’re both a little right. Yeah, they grew up in a world where it was generally more socially acceptable to approach strange women on the street than it is today. But that doesn’t mean that you’re never allowed to do it, either.
I think it’d be good to takeaway a bit of both arguments. Yes, you shouldn’t harass women on the street, but also it’s totally fine to talk to women as long as you’re respectful and take the hint if they’re not interested.
I think the key difference is approaching them to try and “pick them up” versus approaching for a conversation. The former can be creepy and inappropriate while the latter is less so (depending on your demeanor and the situation).
Look at it this way, it’s the same as approaching someone in public to make a friend. Obviously, that’s not inappropriate. It’s only inappropriate if you’re treating it differently (which you shouldn’t be).
How many friends have you made cold approaching people on the street or in shops like that?
Do people often react by treating you with intense suspicion? Ngl, overly chatty/friendly strangers freak me the fuck out.
I think you should just make a habit of talking to people around you. You’re kind of putting human interaction on a pedestal and that’s just going to make you overthink things.
First of all, you need to understand it’s not some pre-planned thing. You should be making a point to go out to do things you like doing - not going out with the explicit agenda of just talking to people. That’s why I think the term “cold approach” is loaded, and full of shit–It inaccurately makes it sound like something negative and unnatural–In actuality you’ve done it many times before without thinking about it.
Seems you’ve gone deep into this analysis, of which none of it is actually relevant though, because you’re not talking about the root cause of your feelings. Which is that you have social anxiety.
Is this something people actually do? I’ve only made friends through shared activities, mostly class, and by meeting friends of friends.
I dread encounters with folk like you when I leave the house.
I get that some humans are naturally more socially inclined, so you require constant affirmations and acknowledgment from everyone around you or you stop feeling good about yourselves and whatever, but this kind of self centred attention seeking that has you going out in public and deciding everyone should want to talk to you if you just go up to them and start talking- is incredibly fucking selfish.
Why do you think you’re so special and important that you get to interrupt people going about their lives and make them listen to you talk? Nobody owes you this. If you want to talk at people start a fucking podcast and let me buy my apples in peace.
