Of course, putin is not above killing russians if it benefits him. But russia has plenty of natural sources of potential extremist violence. As climate change and resource scarcity pile increasing pressure on individual humans and whole societies, events like this become more common.
Sometimes, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it might just be a duck.
Let’s at least wait to see what putin does in response before we jump up and down shouting about putin’s 1999 apartment bombings.
There are persistent suspicions that he and his clique organized the terrorist bombings that catapulted him to power.
Not to mention what he did the last time people in a theater in Moscow were attacked. His actions(gassing the theather) killed 130 of the victims.
Links for the uninitiated: 1999 Russian Apartment Bombings
Thanks, was looking for a verifiable source for the apartment bombings but couldn’t find one. Didn’t think of wikipedia.
Maybe back then it was, but it sure isn’t nowadays… what with some of their most prominent reporting since October 7 written by someone with ties to the IDF
Source?
Zero sympathy and GTFO of Ukraine, which includes Crimea.
ISIS has claimed responsibility for the attack.
That means absolutely nothing, also ISIS is a puppet terrorist organization that the CIA operates.
ISIS has claimed responsibility for the attacks. My thoughts go out to the victims, their families, and the people of Russia. This is just terrible.
It’s plausible, considering Russia helped the USA in certain Middle Eastern
warsconflictsAnd Russia is fucking around in Syria for years
Quite a few possibilities. Russia is less popular than ever.
Do you think groups like radical Islamic organizations only attack targets when they’re associated with American actions…?
Russia has a long history of conflict with these types of groups, both internally (Caucuses) and externally (Syria, Afghanistan, etc.).
A history I might add, that predates American influence in the Middle East, much less the War on Terror.
Sometimes a kiss is just a kiss and a comment is just a comment. Russia bad, but they do good things, sometimes (like blocking recent UN resos). So I do not kneejerk default to blaming Russia. I do tend to be more critical of my own country, having dug deeper than the
whitewashedrevisionist history they serve in public schools, moreso in public schools. So I was actually thinking his my own country directly contributed to the creation of the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and Da’esh. If that bothers you, that’s a you problem and nothing to do with me.Maybe their are situations when a rambling word salad is the right answer, but I haven’t come across any, yet.
Break it down sentence by sentence. It’s neither rambling, nor word salad.
Analysis is breaking something apart to consider its pieces.
A classic move that avoids the work of analysis is to assign a judgment to an entire unit, without any reference to its specific parts.
A lot of work has gone into making this a culturally-accepted method of response, but now that it is it’s like an instant win for the person eschewing the analysis with a mic drop insult.
Overall, the pattern tends to block the interaction of ideas.
I wasn’t trying to be insulting, I was trying to lazily browse before sleep, and the reply to an offhand musing seemed frankly rude in tone.
Sometimes it’s okay to analyze further than an initial thought for days without replying and sometimes it’s ok to make a considered comment weekend a detailed analysis on the spot while browsing the Internet.
You toss a better word salad, I’ll give you that.
However, you probably should have read the conversation to understand the context behind my dismissive “mic drop”.
OP said something kinda dumb.
I corrected them.
Instead of owning their mistake, or moving on, they try to explain away their dumb comment with a large block of tangentially related regional facts and observations, logical fallacies, and a bad metaphor/analogy about the meaning of a kiss.
Russia is one of the primary actors in the Syrian civil war that originally spawned ISIS. This isn’t a “but actually the US” thing, Russia has been balls deep in this shitshow from the start.
Weird how ISIS never attacks Israel.
That does not sound Ukrainian style. But didn’t he piss off some muslims not that long ago?
Allow me to point to the cognitive dissonance that should be occurring among the Gaza ceasefire types -
Examine your logic of “Government X is bad, therefore it’s good when bad things happen to its civilians.”
I’d suggest this way of thinking is flawed in both situations.
If this thought was any more shallow it would evaporate.
You’ll have to explain this more clearly.
Yeah, like obviously that statement is bad, but I don’t get the connection with “Gaza ceasefire types”.
I phrased it poorly but I’m saying a lot of people on Lemmy are commenting “good, fuck Russia” about this situation while simultaneously holding the thought that civilian deaths are bad in Gaza. I’m saying both are bad.
Way to downplay a literal genocide, jackass.
Examine your logic of “Government X is bad, therefore it’s good when bad things happen to its civilians.”
Read up on the inherent violence of settler-colonialism; settlers cannot be equated with civilians
I’d suggest this way of thinking is flawed in both situations.
The wildest detail is ISIS’ track record.
The largest attacks committed by ISIS recently (that aren’t in Africa/Afghanistan, where ISIS is actively operating) have been: Pakistan, Iran, Russia.
Not exactly the US’ friends. Meanwhile, Israel, which is literally committing a genocide against a Muslim population and desecrating the third holiest site in Islam, remains almost untouched. In fact, ISIS apologized when they accidentally attacked Israel in the Golan Heights.
Interesting, sounds like Israel doesn’t want to get involved in another conflict with ISIS and ISIS is flat out afraid of them.
ISIS isn’t afraid of checks notes Iran, Russia, or Pakistan, but Israel is the one that terrifies them?
ISIS has already gotten involved in conflicts with all of those countries. The branch of ISIS probably didn’t want Israel getting involved in Syria, and the feeling was mutual.
Israel has been through a holocaust and some of those fuckers took notes, as we see in Gaza.
Western values on display once again. Reminder, that Vicky the witch promised for asymmetrical warfare and “nasty surprises. These are the surprises.
This is a ridiculous accusation. The West had warned Russia and Russia chose to brush off the warning. ISIS has claimed responsibility. Face it, Putin is just trying to spread conspiracy theories to cover up his failure as a leader.
His failure as a leader that has… just lead to an overwhelming reelection?
What election? Do you mean the one where the opposition’s leader was murdered?
The opposition
There were three opposition parties, actually. And I assume you’re talking about the blood clot that nazi got in prison, right? Any actual evidence pointing to that being unnatural, or are we doing the standard blueanon “putin is behind this somehow” line of conspiratorial thinking?
Surely you’re familiar with controlled opposition, people who run merely to provide the illusion of a real election while any real contenders are kept dead, silenced, locked up, off the ballot, or otherwise suppressed?
You mean the American electoral farce, right?
While i wait for your evidence of murder, I’m curious: What do you think the common people of a country with a political system compromised by controlled opposition should do?
Navalny never had more than like 2% support in Russia, Calling him the opposition leader shows that you’re utterly clueless on the subject of Russian politics. The actual opposition in Russia is KPRF as opposed to a fucking west backed fascist which is what Navalny was.
So why would ISIS attack Russia? What is their motive? It’s easy to “claim responsibility.” It’s an entirely different story to use a great deal of resources to actually plan and carry out a terrorist attack of this scale. And for what reason? To provoke another world power?? I call bullshit.
They have been fighting each other as part of the ongoing Syrian civil war for about the past decade. I’d say that’s motive enough.
In what way has Russia chosen to brush off the warning? Meanwhile, any proxy group can claim responsibility, the fact that you treat that as some sort of evidence says volumes. One of your regime’s top ghouls went on TV and promised to conduct acts of terrorism in Russia. Now we’re seeing acts of terrorism being conducted in Russia. These are the facts of the situation.
The fact that internet trolls are now trying to paint this as a conspiracy theory is just the repeat of the Nord Stream nonsense. Your regime is famous for doing precisely these sorts of attacks buddy.
In what way has Russia chosen to brush off the warning?
This was well documented with statements released to Russian state media.
One of your regime’s top ghouls went on TV and promised to conduct acts of terrorism in Russia.
She explicitly said battlefield, not concert halls. Considering the US passed along intelligence to the Russians, what’s the supposed angle here? What 5D chess is the US playing? Come on, at least come up with something coherent.
What Putin actually said in your second link is that the west was using terrorism as blackmail. Nowhere did he dismiss it.
She explicitly said battlefield, not concert halls. Considering the US passed along intelligence to the Russians, what’s the supposed angle here? What 5D chess is the US playing? Come on, at least come up with something coherent.
She explicitly said asymmetric warfare which means terrorism. US did not pass any concrete intelligence to Russia either. The angle here is the same as it’s always been, to try and cause civil unrest by any means necessary. This is what your terrorist state does everywhere because your country is a plague upon humanity. This is what you’re all about https://razedbywolves.blogspot.com/2021/08/a-detailed-chronological-list-of-us_5.html?m=1
Western values on display once again.
This is a ridiculous accusation… ISIS has claimed responsibility
Not the contradiction you think it is
Provide evidence that this attack was commited by the west.
If Nuland promising to do acts of terrorism in Russia isn’t enough for you to put two and two together then there’s no helping you.
What a sudden shift this has caused in the corners of lemmy. To the contrary of the common narrative, rhose who are in a disparaging tone called westoids and libs are condemning the attack and supporting the victims while grad has a long thread with conspiracy theories.
This doesn’t seem to have the trappings of a false-flag operation, or that of Kyiv, so perhaps this is an honest-to-goodness sign of revolution against that gay clown Putin? hopefully!
People getting mowed down in a concert hall isn’t anything close to a revolution
Smells like a false flag to me. Why shoot up a public concert hall if your enemy is Putin and not the general public. Makes no sense.
Because ISIS is more of a terrorist organization than a military organization?
Those are just terrorists, like there have been before in Europe
Why shoot up a public concert hall if your enemy is Putin and not the general public.
Why do any extremists - or russia, the US or israel for that matter - target violence towards civilians?
Maybe they believe the cause is worth it, the tactical calculus still comes out in their favour, or they just hate all russians? General destabilization? Forcing the state to devote more resources to protecting soft civilian infrastructure. Making people feel unsafe. Inspiring similar atrocities. The logic of tactically deploying murder isn’t always clear to an outsider, especially before we have a firm idea who did this.
I strongly doubt this is an “honest-to-goodness sign of revolution”. Shooting concert-goers is obviously not that. But I don’t think it’s logically sound to rule out an anti-putin motivation just because civilians were killed.
Because a couple dudes with small arms can’t be effective by attacking the Russian military or police forces head-on. Instead they choose to attack soft targets and maximize the social disruption and impact by terrorizing citizens.
I would normally say it seems like a convenient false flag if they could pin it on Ukraine or something, but it sounds like several sources have confirmed ISIS is claiming responsibility.
The best way to tell if it’s a false flag operation is to see how much this event will be spread in the Russian media.
They’ve lost tons of equipment and had bombings deep in Russian territory, mostly affecting their oil production which could be perceived locally as Russian military inferiority.
So when this starts being on blast for every channel and frequency - you can be sure it’s a false flag.
If they bury this like any other Russian military failing, then it’s probably real.
So when this starts being on blast for every channel and frequency - you can be sure it’s a false flag.
Maybe, maybe not.
Regardless of who is actually responsible, and regardless of who claimes responsibility, it could be used as propaganda against pretty much anyone the Kremlin is grumpy about.
Navalney supporters or Ukraine are some pretty obvious potential scapegoats.
Doesnt matter if its false flag or not. Pooptin is gonna use it as ammo against Ukraine.
Or against the 20-ish percent who didn’t vote for Putin.
Or against the 20-ish percent who didn’t vote for Putin.
Why doesn’t it seem like a false-flag? Who could benefit from this, politically, more than Putin? Remember the Reichstag fire.
Wut. He’s already in power and just won another six year term.
He’s been in power for a long time but he’s run an authoritarian regime. He relies on the suppression of a depoliticized majority of the population. The idea here is that he wants to make a move towards totalitarianism: mobilize more of the population towards the war effort. Squeeze those depoliticized folks to force them to declare their loyalty to the regime.
Yes - but why did he let it happen? I’m thinking more that Putin willfully neglected any action against it because <reason>. Maybe he wants to mobilise more and wants people to feel like they’re under attack?
I don’t know, why did Bush let 9/11 happen? This is wild speculation one day after the attack with practically no reliable information to work with. The English speaking world has decided that Putin is a cartoon villian or the new Hitler, so sinister conspiracy theories abound.
Putin is a real villain, and it’s not far fetched. I don’t know what 9/11 has to do with this though
Nevermind the Reichstag, remember that the FSB and likely Putin was behind the bombing of four apartment blocks in Russia in 1999 that killed over 300 people. It got blamed on the Chechens and was used to justify the invasion of Chechnya.
This wouldn’t even be the bloodiest false flag Putin has done in his career.
Ah yes killing your own people surely benefits you politically. What a dumbass.
It does if you can convince them that only giving you more power will keep them safe, unfortunately
One minor detail, his legitimacy was not waivering at all. Its as stupid as claiming that bush did 9/11.
9/11 did give Bush a pretext for the Patriot Act though, and his own presidency was not in question at the time.
To be clear I don’t think that Bush did 9/11 and don’t know who did this shooting. Just pointing out that Putin absolutely can benefit from it politically.
ah yes, gay = bad, how progressive of you
Disgraceful homophobia is being upvoted on lemmy, I thought we were better then this
at the time I commented it had like 14 upvotes and 0 downvotes, now it’s at 15 upvotes and 14 downvotes, my comment got 2 downvotes like 5 minutes after posting it, but now it also has 5 upvotes.
Looks like it just took some time for the better part of lemmy to get to this post.
Not suspicious at all
They had intelligence saying an attack was being planned, and they informed Russia, who dismissed it as US propaganda.
who dismissed it as US propaganda.
Do you have a source on that?
Lots of the articles about it mention it. Here’s one.
Their own ass and the US state department’s ass
These are the least radicalized radical Islamic terrorists in living memory.
-
They didn’t seek to become martyrs, but instead ran away (with a well-planned extraction plan, as far as we can tell) instead of maximizing casualties
-
They hid their faces instead of proudly declaring their martyrdom
-
No screaming of Allah, no mention of Allah, no “God is great”, nothing
-
Video shows the terrorists doing Shahada with their left index finger (which goes against the teachings of Muhammad)
‘Abdullah b. Zubair narrated on the authority of his father that when the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) sat for supplication, i. e. tashahhud (blessing and supplication), he placed his right hand on his right thigh and his left hand on his left thigh, and pointed with his forefinger, and placed his thumb on his (milddle) finger, and covered his knee with the palm of his left hand…
In fact, the controversy surrounding the issue AFAIK is relating to when the finger should be raised and whether you should be allowed to move the finger during the prayer, not which hand (which has been established).
Pretty sure the videos that the killers took had some Allah talk. It was released by Amaq news, an isis news group. It shows them close up killing a bunch of people in a small corridor and slicing at guys neck on the ground.
ISIS isn’t exactly an organization with a robust top-down structure. In case you forgot, that was the whole point of the war in Syria.
Violence does not make an Islamic extremist. I haven’t seen any of the telltale indicators of a radicalized Islamic extremist in the videos, but maybe I missed it?
-
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Russian news reports said that the assailants also used explosives, causing a massive blaze at the Crocus City Hall on the western edge of Moscow.
Video posted on social media showed huge plumes of black smoke rising over the building.
Russia’s state RIA Novosti news agency reported that at least three people in combat fatigues fired weapons.
Extended rounds of gunfire could be heard on multiple videos posted by Russian media and Telegram channels.
Another one showed a man inside the auditorium, saying the assailants set it on fire, with incessant gunshots ringing out in the background.
Andrei Vorobyov, the governor of the Moscow region, said he was heading to the area and set up a task force to deal with the damage.
The original article contains 202 words, the summary contains 123 words. Saved 39%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
the Moscow mayor canceled all mass gatherings scheduled for the weekend
Things that make you go “hmmm”
It’s a prudent move in the wake of one attack to avoid presenting any obvious targets. Besides, it’s not like the Russian government needs an excuse to shut down non-controlled opposition rallies.
No doubt. But it’s also good to keep in place for too long so people aren’t allowed to protest.
There was a warning by the US consulate about potential extremist attacks on roundabout the eighth. 
Hell is humanity. I’m convinced “good” is gone forever and evil leads and has been for awhile.
RIP.
