For many religious people, raising their children in their faith is an important part of their religious practice. They might see getting their kids into heaven as one of the most important things they can do as parent. And certainly, adults should have the right to practice their religion freely, but children are impressionable and unlikely to realize that they are being indoctrinated into one religion out of the thousands that humans practice.
And many faith traditions have beliefs that are at odds with science or support bigoted worldviews. For example, a queer person being raised in the Catholic Church would be taught that they are inherently disordered and would likely be discouraged from being involved in LGBTQ support groups.
Where do you think the line is between practicing your own religion faithfully and unethically forcing your beliefs on someone else?
Ideally when properly understood each religion usually means well and enhances oneself in some way, from my little studying into a couple popular ones they seem to be aiming for similar things so I’m less and less convinced of inherently biased religious practices and more and more convinced of sucky people.
I think spirituality goes hand in hand with mental health and when we understand it badly we dig ourselves into deeper holes or when we understand it rightly we keep ourselves from falling in holes.
If what you teach someone helps them, that is good, otherwise just leave them alone.
I’d say yes, as long as they’re tolerant of their children questioning those beliefs and developing their own later on in life. Parents will always make an impression on their kids, that’s just what being a parent is. It can get more nuanced of course. Teaching your kids homophobia is unethical, but that’s regardless of whether it’s for religious or other reasons.
Definitely think that kids should be explained different beliefs early on… plus they should be respected if they don’t want to follow the same beliefs, and be able to opt out of any traditions… though I suppose the faith I follow tends to be a lot less “damned to hecc” than some others, so to some parents if breaking a tradition means making their kid go to hell that’s probably a lot tougher of a thing than im imagining it to be
If it impacts someone else besides yourself.
Their kid, their call up until the point the child’s safety is in danger.
I have no more right to tell them how to raise their kids than they have about my entirely hypothetical and undesired kids. I may not agree with their choices and they may not agree with mine, I may think they are raising their kids to be less moral, they may think the same with the added bonus that I’m condemning mine to an eternity of torment.
That’s life in a pluralistic society.
Their kid, their call up until the point the child’s safety is in danger.
You’re answering the legal question instead of OP’s ethical question. You’re not wrong in your legal answer, but that wasn’t what OP was asking.
I think that’s the ethical answer too.
We can’t know who is right, so I don’t see any ethical way to intervene.
I hate when I see parents giving their kids a screen instead of interacting with them or worse, ignoring their kid im favour of their phone. But again, I don’t feel it is ethical to interfere.
If a child is homosexual, I would argue its unethical to teach them they are freak of nature and they are wrong or broken. However, its not illegal.
It’s act vs rule ethics, what is ethical in a particular situation may not be broadly applicable to society.
Edit: And from the religious parents perspective, letting your beloved child suffer an eternity of torment is probably not super moral. I may disagree but that’s their perspective and there’s no arbiter make the call.
You’re citing Bentham Utilitarianism but you could make a stronger argument for your side if you cited Kant I would think.
Regardless is it our business? You are free to raise your kids how you want. Theyll be just fine. If religion is taught and leads to a more happy or moral lifestyle that isnt so bad.
Nothing personal but i find it facinating with people make other peoples business their own. Let other people live how they want and in turn they wont tell you how to live. Itll all be over in a flash.
Except your own children are “other people.” They may not “be just fine.” Some religions are abusive and traumatizing. Why should adults have to deprogram themselves and recover from trauma later because their parents decided it was fine to indoctrinate their own kids? “Mind your own business” applies to parents too.
Some parents are abusive and traumatizing, religion or not.
What this really comes down to is “Why are bad people allowed to raise their children how they want?”
Unless you’re trying to make the argument that all religions are abusive and traumatizing.
That wasnt the title. Im not for Nazis raising othrr Nazis but once YOU decide what is the right snd wrong relgions then where will that lead us? As you can see in governement. They make moves till eventually you dont control your own children. Also if you dont have kids then you shouldnt be discussing this. Do you know how strong the parental instinct is?
Friendly argument but yall gotta think this through. You want freedom or you want someone deciding your relgion is “wrong” one.
Im done discussing. This one is a no brainer.
No. It is literal grooming. All religions are sex cults.
It’s a crime up to put that on a kid.
Stop giving religions a pass to abuse children.
What a bad take.
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This would be true if religion were not so often used to suppress and hurt people.
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The history books are full of religions’ heinous crimes against humanity. Maybe there is some religion out there that is purely benevolent but I have never heard of it in the sea of counterexamples.
If you are currently trapped in a religion, I am here to tell you that you can escape. Once you do, a lot becomes much more clear.
It is also important to remember that religions are human organizational structures, but their basis of authority is “because I said so.” We see this structure arise over and over until it is eventually removed for something more based in reality.
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You are like a younger me who refused to see the 10,000 year history of abuse and realize that any system based on “because I told you so” us unethical and harmful to human life.
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It depends on how you view the parent/child relationship. In most countries parents have a sort of “ownership” role of their child. A right to raise them in their own way, religion and traditions. It is THEIR child to teach, and raise.
This has become pretty contentious in Norway, and Norway has lost cases child protection cases regarding this in international courts. Our child protection services has taken children from their parents and that has ended up in international courts in some cases. This is due to a difference in opinion in what is acceptable and OK ways to raise a child, and what constitutes the rights of the parents and the rights of the child. In some of these cases Norway have rightfully been convicted. But you won’t lose the ability to raise your child in Norway over nothing, as some people will have you believe. The child protective services can’t explain why to the public, and the parents can pretend to be innocent.
Personally I believe parents do not own their child. I believe parents are in a privileged position and lucky to be allowed to raise a human (yes, also biological), and that the privilege should be revoked if the parents are not sufficiently fit to raise the child.
The perspective of ownership is harmful in my opinion and does often conflict with the interests of the child in my opinion.
Should the child get vaccinated? Yes, exceptions are only allergies.
Should the child be home schooled? No.
Should the child interact with peers at the kindergarten and school and get the social skills they need? Yes
What sorts of punishments are acceptable?
Should the child be heavily involved in religion? No, but should learn about it, and can in a limited degree practice it. But no religious schools, or religious camps. Genital mutilation should not be allowed for boys either. If they want to, they can do it as adults. Doing unnecessary surgery on a defenseless child due to religion is in no way acceptable.
If the parents are neglecting their child, how much neglect is okay before the right/privilege is revoked?
If the parents are addicts, what then?
Etc.
I’m not sure this is a question of ethics. It’s a question of whether you agree with a particular parent’s world view. A good parent tries to set their child on a positive path in life, and they are going to pick a path based their personal knowledge and beliefs.
Even if you try hard not to “indoctrinate” your child with any particular world view, they will still see you as a model for what to believe and how to behave. You will tend to be your child’s baseline for what “normal” is, at least early in their life. Your beliefs and behaviors will affect your kids whether you want them to or not.
The fundamental difference between religion/spirituality and science/reason, as far as I’m concerned is this: religion demands that you accept something as an indisputable truth and that questioning it is not only discouraged but forbidden and will be met with an arbitrarily horrific punishment (eternal damnation, etc), with what the specific something is dependent on the teacher, their interpretations and their intentions. As a mental framework, I don’t think it’s healthy for either individuals or societies to unquestioningly accept - or be made to accept - that any ideas are defacto sacred.
I think that’s a very narrow view of religion though, albeit one that is true of a lot and I agree is toxic. Ironically since you’re a UK person, it’s a type of religion I associate with the US and the American right (though I also know through friends growing up that it can be fairly common in some Muslim and Hindi groups)
I think a lot of times religion is used as a kind of cultural link: ‘this is why we have these traditions, this is a moral we have that we can explain with this story’ etc. And with that context I think it can be fine, even helpful to raise someone within a religious tradition
I guess I broadly agree with you mostly, but I would say that religion can be coherent with critical thinking and open-mindedness: it’s cultural as much as its about fundamental belief
(and when it is about fundamental belief then yeah it’s often awful)
The problem with “faith” is its literal meaning: belief that is not based on evidence.
A society based on faith can only work is everybody has the same faith (think: Ancient Rome, theocracies, communist countries). The only reason modern Western democracies work is precisely that they are not based on faith but rather on evidence, on reason, on truth-seeking. This is the amazing and historically anomalous heritage of the enlightenment and it’s looking more fragile by the day.
Teaching kids fairytales and calling it truth is the reason religion exists. It’s the reason it’s so hard for adults to leave the religions they assimilated as children. And in a free society where we have to find a way to live together, it’s profoundly dangerous.
So my answer is: no.
think: Ancient Rome,
As far as I know, Ancient Rome (pre-christian) welcomed many and very different faiths.
That’s fair. Although I believe the Jewish minority was the only one that seriously dissented from the prevailing polytheism.
My main point is that secular liberalism is the only political system that has been shown to protect individual freedom and rights - i.e. without the need for a shared supernatural mythology or an iron fist. And this system relies on a shared commitment to evidence, reason, facts.
In this context, to inculcate irrational beliefs in children seems to me to be like playing with fire.
Although I believe the Jewish minority was the only one that seriously dissented from the prevailing polytheism.
Edit: There were the Christians, a little later on. But I wouldn’t know that all religions would be polytheist back then except Jews. I’m really not an expert.
In this context, to inculcate irrational beliefs in children seems to me to be like playing with fire.
It sure can be. But, talking irrational beliefs, wouldn’t you agree that telling a child they’re a unique and amazing person and that all they do is perfect and amazing too, that they should not have to get bad grades at school because it’s infuriating, that they should not have to do their homework because it’s tiresome, that they should be allowed to do whatever they fancy the moment they fancy doing it, is also like playing with fire? Still, despite it containing not a single mention of god, religion or spiritual beliefs it’s something hordes of parents are telling their own kids every single day.
I do sincerely wonder what will do more harm to those kids but, once again, I’m not pro religion nor am I against it. I’m only pro taking nothing for granted—beginning with our very own certainties if they can’t be demonstrated ;)
All fair points. There are definitely multiple ways of playing with fire.
I saw that article about illiterate college kids too. Worrying.
I saw that article about illiterate college kids too. Worrying.
Indeed. We have the same issues here in France, btw. It’s an absolute failure of our educational system (and of too many parents persisting in wanting that failure to be used) that will cost dear to all those kids, and then will cost to the society as a whole: that’s our future ‘elite’ that’s being uneducated.
I think the ethics mostly come into how you raise them, religion or not. It’s ethical to teach kindness and empathy. It’s ethical to allow your kids to explore while asking them questions that help that exploration. You can do those kinds of things no matter what faith (or non-faith) you practice.
Speaking as someone who was raised in an environment that gave lip service to kindness and empathy but was really very harsh, judgmental, and rigid, only one of my siblings kept something reasonably approximating my parents’ faith. The rest of us are mostly some variety of pagan. Each of us had a painful journey out of our parents’ faith to something. No matter how you raise your kids, they are their own people and will come to their own conclusions. You can make the path much more difficult than it needs to be or you can set them up for a much less traumatic journey.
I think it can be done if the parents are tolerant, flexible, and understand that people are naturally curious about other worldviews. Unfortunately, that’s a stratospherically high bar for a lot of people. When the parents sincerely believe that their child’s eternal soul is in danger, ethics come second.
Ironically, I think the people best suited to give religious guidance are agnostics, who readily admit that they don’t know squat about the afterlife or other supernatural topics. Ideally, they won’t pass on hate or bigotry whose only basis is ancient hearsay or hallucinations.
No it’s not ethical. I say this as a queer man indoctrinated in Christianity. I was lucky to make it through childhood without killing myself. I tried several times. Religion is a cancer that should be exterminated.
I am a trans woman who was raised Catholic, so I feel similarly. I’ve had to do so much work in therapy just to get to a place where I can accept myself for who I am. A lot of those old beliefs were baked in deeper than I realized.
I carry a lot of resentment towards my (very devout) parents for raising me in the church, but I also recognize my experience is not emblematic of every person’s experience being raised in a religious household.
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