The funniest thing about non Americans is that they think most of us don’t fucking know this. It’s so annoying
In fact some of them hate you and consider you to be a parasite no matter what you do.
Democrats are far from perfect, but last time they were in power they… invested in infrastructure, forgave student debt, helped Ukraine defend itself, and tried to give everyone healthcare.
Republicans have now crashed the (global) economy, increased disease spread, decimated public departments and services, fired thousands of critical workers and veterans, retaliated against people for their Free Speech, limited rights of women, immigrants, and LGBTQ+people, made us less safe against wildfires and contagions, started to gut Medicare, turned all our allies against us, raised prices on everything, engaged in corrupt theft of our tax dollars, and now want to deport legal Americans.
“BoTh SiDeS!”
The ‘both sides’ people drive me nuts. Democrats definitely suck, but unless there is electoral reform there are only two choices and it’s clear Republicans are a party of Christofascist hacks. Morons standing in the middle saying “everyone sucks” aren’t helping anyone but their own ego.
Do you have a plan for that “electoral reform” that doesn’t involve said ballot box?
Do you not see the inherent contradictions there?
No I completely get the problem there. It’s going to be really hard to get electoral reform if there are no longer elections. So my focus is on preserving Democratic institutions long enough that maybe we can improve them. Obviously party leaders have no interest in seeing changes that threaten the duopoly, but there are Democrats (particularly at the state level) who have been open to reforms like rank choice voting.
If suddenly Republicans stop attacking the rule of law, checks and balances, gerrymandering districts, overriding voters, and coddling white nationalists then maybe their party would be capable of enacting positive change as well.
If you have some secret third choice that can change the system without bloodshed or voting for one of the two parties I’m all ears. If you’re going to tell me to vote third party then I’d like you to show me how you think a third party candidate can win the presidency because that’s never happened and it’s never even been close.
You talked right past the inherent contradictions and did not see them.
Assuming the US election process remains unchanged for the foreseeable future how do you get electoral reforms using the electoral process that you agree needs reforms?
I suppose I’m open to suggestions?
I understand what you’re getting at but I don’t know what kind of answer you want here. Are you suggesting that violence is the only way to achieve change? Are you suggesting that third party candidates could win a national election and then eliminate the two-party system? Are you suggesting that electing more Republicans will result in a political future that offers more power to voters to choose their own government? Do you think that electing fascists will accelerate the collapse of the state and then a more progressive ideology will rise from the ashes? Are you just cool with what the Republican party looks like right now and the way that they govern?
Do I need to specify that I’m not saying you should vote for every Democrat no matter what and that you really should consider candidates as individuals?
I guess I see the Democratic party as a deeply flawed party (with abysmally out of touch leadership) that needs serious reform and I see the Republican party as a cult of christofascist fucks that need to be defeated before they completely erode individual rights and entrench their own power for generations.
So yes. I get the contradiction in saying “You should vote for one of the two parties in order to create a political landscape where it is possible to one day move beyond the two-party system”. Partisanship makes everything harder. But if you really think both parties are the same and that it doesn’t matter which one you pick then I don’t know what to tell you.
I don’t have a good answer for you, I have a:
Your thesis is fundamentally flawed, if we are ever going to get an answer you need to stop getting mad at the people working to help you find a solution.
What I (and others) are trying to tell you is that the christofascist fuck cult goes much deeper than the surface level that you are fixated on. The “deep flaws” you see in the Democratic party aren’t bugs, they’re ‘features’.
The current status quo is deeply broken, I think we can both agree on that, yes?
The threat of violence (along with capability) has historically been a very effective tool for change (for better and worse), but I do no not see it being effective in a world where drone strikes, autonomous murder copters and nuclear weapons are a thing.
I also argue that the concept of electoralism is fundamentally broken and so electing more Republicans, Democrats, 3rd parties, goldfish, etc. is not going to solve/change anything either.
Accelerationism replaces current problems with worse ones, but my understanding is that if you’re focus is on your grandchildren and thinking in the timescale of centuries then maybe. IMO it’s one hell of a big gamble with an incredibly high cost and low odds of substantial/any progress.
What are your thoughts?
I suppose I don’t see that as a productive perspective? You’re not offering any solutions or actions to take to enact the change you want to see besides doing nothing until we collectively figure out how to have a revolution.
The system is flawed. Maybe you’re right that it is fundamentally broken and cannot be reformed but disengaging from voting only supports the status quo and those that are already in power. I think it’s worth it to vote for candidates that share some of the same values as me even if they aren’t perfect while continuing to put political pressure on leaders that are not serving the public effectively. I would vote for someone one day and join a protest against them the next day, I do not see that as a contradiction. That is just being civically engaged.
Also I know I’m probably coming in hot here but I’m truly not mad or upset. I think these are the sorts of conversations on Lemmy that are really great and hard to have in other settings. I appreciate your thoughtful responses. It seems like we’re pretty aligned on what the problems are. I’m very open to solutions that don’t involve harming others but if you aren’t a voter I’d strongly encourage you to consider voting, though I agree that voting alone will not solve every problem.
Downvotes are disabled on my instance; multiple people think you wrote something inane. I have no problem replying to you telling you that you live in a dictatorship of capital where both sides are the same but you are so propagandized and ignorant you can’t even see the truth right in front of your nose. One side enables the other, the US functions as a whole. The democracy there is kay fabe and predetermined.
It blows my mind that even now, there are people like you who claim they can’t tell the difference between Biden and Trump.
It blows my mind that you interpreted what he said that way.
I quote, absolutely directly:
both sides are the same
It’s a breathtakingly stupid take.
I didn’t see Biden and Trump in that quote. Facts are that both sides are just doing what they can get away with according to the crowd they’re trying to appeal to. If left to their own devices, both sides will engage in heinous behavior. The only thing stopping the Democrats from doing more Republican things is in a way, their branding as “good guys”, whatever that may mean to Democrat sided citizens. The point is there is a lack of scrutiny on our end and the whole good vs evil black and white bullshit distracts us from the fact that the people in charge of the Democrats are just as capable of evil and are just two sides of the same coin taking different approaches. There was a time when the Republicans were the good guys and the Democrats were the evil ones and that can switch just as easily as it did before. The whole Red vs Blue shit is a distraction. He never said it’s okay to vote for Trump or okay not to vote against him and it’s extremely disingenuous for you to say that that’s his fucking take.
I can tell the difference, in the same way I can tell the difference between a father that molests his children and the wife that covers for and enables him.
You have to remember that, unlike you, some people consider the lives of foreigners to be worth as much as the lives of Americans
Curious how democrats decided to do genocide over obstructing any of the dastardly acts on your list. Is it lost on you how the democrats are controlled opposition?
If, in 20 years, your choice is between a democrat who wants 10 genocides and a republican who wants 9, which would you choose?
You can’t justify it anymore dude. Trump wants a forced relocation of Palestinians. No one on the Dem side mentioned that shit. Republicans want to see the end of the Palestinians and that’s true genocide. Dems had to walk the line between an ally and a group getting mass murdered.
We have contract obligations to assist Iseral. Biden was just following what America had promised. Not supporting genocide. But sure blame him if you sleep better.
Now you’re faced with Trump Gaza #1.
Let’s not pretend that Trump’s plan to forcibly remove all Palestinians from Gaza isn’t a revival of the same plan put forth by Biden behind closed doors.
But in a statement Thursday, the Egyptian government rejected efforts to move Palestinians from Gaza as a “blatant violation” of international law that could undercut ceasefire talks and threaten Middle East relations.
A Western diplomat in Cairo, also speaking anonymously because the discussions have not been made public, confirmed receiving Egypt’s message of its strong opposition through multiple channels. The diplomat said Egypt was very serious and viewed the plan as a threat to its national security.
The diplomat said Egypt rejected similar proposals from the Biden administration and European countries early in the war, which was sparked by Hamas’ Oct. 7, 2023 attack into southern Israel. The earlier proposals were broached privately, while Trump announced his plan at a White House press conference alongside Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
The only obligation the US has, under the Leahy Law and International Law, is to cease weapons transfers to Israel for violating human rights and perpetrating crimes against humanity.
Biden is a self proclaimed Zionist, he absolutely supported this genocide, both materially, diplomatically, and ideologically.
won’t someone think of the contractual obligations??? 🙀🙀🙀
The one who wants fewer genocides, how is that even a question?
But much better would be using those 20 years to empower progressives at the local level, so they have the experience to get elected to the state level, which gives them the experience to be competitive at the federal level. No one is saying to just support the Dems forever. You can spend 1 day every 4 years helping the Republicans lose, and spend the other 1460 fighting for better options. I recommend it, in fact.
Voting lesser evil slows the descent into fascism while we build the progressive base necessary for a progressive to win the general election. No one is saying the lesser evil is good, we know it’s evil, that’s why we call it the lesser evil. But it is the lesser evil, and when you have a choice between two evils winning, the lesser evil is preferable.
Voting for a third party with no chance of winning, or not voting at all, does not give us better options. Building a successful third party takes time and many, many wins in smaller elections. Personally, I’d rather spend that time under a neo-liberal regime than a Christofascist one. They’re both bad, but one is unambiguously worse.
Vote progressive for every local office you can. If there are no progressive options, consider running yourself or convincing a politically inclined friend to do so. If we all show up for every single election, and flood every level of government with progressives, maybe in 20 years we’ll have a better choice than 9 genocides vs 10 genocides. But every Republican win helps gerrymander and disenfranchise us further from that goal.
Surely nobody thought of this 20 years ago when George fucking Bush was in office. Or 40 years ago when Reagan was in office. This idea of pushing the liberal party left and running locally is a totally fresh and original idea and definitely isn’t a distraction from organizing the working class into a force of its own which demands concessions from the ruling class at the threat of upheaval.
It’s not a new idea, we just haven’t been implementing it. And who said anything about pushing the liberal party left? It’s not about parties, it’s about politicians and their policies. Run third party wherever it’s viable, run Democrat where it isn’t, it’s really not that important what letter is next to your name. What’s important is your platform.
definitely isn’t a distraction from organizing the working class into a force of its own
That’s exactly what I’m suggesting. What is “showing up to every election to vote for progressives” if not organizing the working class? What kind of organization do you think has a lower barrier than voting? If we can’t organize the working class to vote one day every couple years, how on Earth do you expect them to jeopardize their safety and livelihoods with more direct action?
And even then, those approaches aren’t mutually exclusive. Voting in no way prevents you from organizing. In fact, strategically voting against the fascists explicitly helps the push to organize. It’s much easier to protest when the reaction is a smug “I’m talking now”, than when the reaction is having your degree retroactively nullified or, y’know, getting deported to an El Salvadorian gulag.
I understand the dissenting opinions, but it’s mind-boggling people can’t grasp this in the modern world. There’s almost 350 million people in the US. It’s impossible to immediately get everyone on the same page and make meaningful change in a short period of time.
If you abstain from voting, you absolutely allow the greater evil to thrive and become worse. Look at the extent that Bush went to after 9/11. No one should want that.
Haha, a removed comment, I shall assume everything it said was 100% in line with my beliefs.
What a sad way to view the world and all its viewpoints…
I don’t know why you all tolerate this pathetic c3nsorshep here. All I said in my “unalived” comment was basically that there is 1 party in the USA that illegally disappears people, crashes the global economy (for you and me!), is corrupt, etc, and the other one tried to give everybody health care. “b07H s1des” right!?
You’re daily reminder that blueMAGA doesn’t consider Palestinians to be people.
You do realize you don’t have to assume and can just look at the modlog, right?
Modlog for this comment says rule 2, but that rule is about reposts??!!
According to the modlog, this is the removed comment:
Democrats are far from perfect, but last time they were in power they… invested in infrastructure, forgave student debt, helped Ukraine defend itself, and tried to give everyone healthcare. Republicans have now crashed the (global) economy, increased disease spread, decimated public departments and services, fired thousands of critical workers and veterans, retaliated against people for their Free Speech, limited rights of women, immigrants, and LGBTQ+ people, made us less safe against wildfires and contagions, started to gut Medicare, turned all our allies against us, raised prices on everything, engaged in corrupt theft of our tax dollars, and now want to deport legal Americans.
Well, I think this is worth highlighting.
The rule 2 refers to the rule 2 of the instance, not the community, which is:
Be respectful, especially when disagreeing. Everyone should feel welcome here.
The part you decided to show in the modlog is also a little deceptive. Here is the missing part:
“BoTh SiDeS!” EDIT lol, the instant downvote from OP.
The rule 2 refers to the rule 2 of the instance, not the community, which is:
Ah that makes more sense.
The part you decided to show in the modlog is also a little deceptive.
I left that out not to be deceptive, but because it wasn’t germane to everything else, and it was an edit.
Good thing chuck schumer and the dems are out there leading the resistance by… uhh… making sure the left is pro-genocide and sending record levels of bombs to conduct said genocide. Hell yeah dawg that shit’s awesome and exactly what we need from the people who totally oppose Hitler 2 in office and will do everything in their power to stop him
Not sure what you said but 100% agreed
True for any goverment. I am fucking tired.
If you haven’t picked up your rubles yet, they’re not coming. No need to #bothSides to split the Dem vote anymore – it’s already over. Come back for more assignments if they ever get to vote again.
No need to #bothSides to split the Dem vote anymore – it’s already over.
You’re the one who brought lost elections into this.
This we have heard. This we all know. The concern for their fellows is all just for show
Oh look tankies helpfully supporting the rise of facisim with bothsidesisms.
Further evidence that “tankie” just means “anyone to the left of the Democratic party”
Acknowledging that the majority of politicians in the US is “bothsideism” is so fucking stupid. Don’t get it fucked up, it’s the poor vs the rich. And if it isn’t obvious, they want more money. More power.
If you actively stand there and say “yea shut up, bothsideist” (whatever the fuck that means) then you are contributing exactly nothing to the conversation.
This system is supposed to be for the people, right? For all the people? Not for the select few that gamed the system? So if it’s between a totalitarian state that silences dissent in order to keep workers rights or one that lets our politicians be corrupted and look the other way when rich people test the waters and try and take more and more with time, I’d prefer the first option.
Damn commies raising a stink about the US genocide of Palestinians again. /s
yeah!! why won’t these woke pinko commies just fall in line and vote blue already???
Except Republicans are super evil with what they’re doing right now. Fuck you republican cunts.
Yep. And Democrats were super evil with what they were doing a few months ago.
No content correct the record bots are downvoting you and a lot of other ppl in this thread, who say anything even slightly negative about them. I’m having to ban a lot of them rn.
Haha, I still not sure what to call them.
- USAns?
- USArians?
- USians?
I think Usans would be the most correct, but they are a people with no name.
trumpistanians
Usonians
USSAsians.
Amerikkkans
*Americucks
SchoolShootingians
deleted by creator
Burgerlanders?
This is for trutru
Roses are red
Violets are blue
Oversimplified political apathy
Is what gave you Trump 2
deleted by creator
Or maybe, we can use this to protest and vote for political change. We cannot allow lobbies to buy politicians anymore, and campaign spending must be capped.
Apathy benefits only the republicans
Democrats better not put forward candidates people are apathetic about then.
Responsibility lies with “The Democrats” (some sort of far away secret group that I can’t influence) and not with any American. If those Democrats can’t give me my perfect candidate, then I’ll just give up and let the fascists win. Also, I can’t figure out why they won’t do this–my ideal liberal candidate would appeal to the majority of Americans!
It is never the party’s job to appeal to voters. There is one designated party that is just owed support and should never have to craft another appeal besides “The Republicans can’t fill out the paperwork properly, that is why we will build the wall faster, put people in concentration camps at greater numbers, and do fascism better and more politely than the dumb, knuckle-dragging fascists”
“The Democrats” (some sort of far away secret group that I can’t influence)
The existence of the Democratic Party is not a secret you dumb shitlib.
Being against all genocide isn’t oversimplifying anything
There was no recent genocide that had any US involvement. How about minding your own business. Like preventing weighing in at about 800 pounds and not being able to count up to 3 in the voting booth?
Genocide denier
It was oversimplified though. The discussion of genocide often took the form of thought terminating cliches.
That’s how you get things like people refusing to vote for either candidate, leading to a sharp increase in genocide.
No, Democrats and Liberals using Trump 2 as an excuse to be vocally pro-genocide and forcing people to accept pro-fascism is what caused Trump 2, since the party cannot fail only be failed by voters willing to accept fascism but not turned off by crude, ham-fisted forms of fascism. The problem, supposedly, is people that oppose Trump’s policies, rather than just needing the Trump policies being polite. It is the Democrat’s need to always adopt all of the previous Republican policies, and their only goal is being the Republicans, but polite. If Genocide and fascism is not a red line, but completely acceptable to support, as long as you can imagine another regime doing the genocide slightly worse, there is no evil you will not work for and support.
Voting is not a sign of support for everything the candidate does. It’s a choice for who you want to be in the position, and none of the above is not a possible outcome.
Choosing to not vote means you’re choosing whoever the majority of voters pick
We need to all vote libertarian, just to see what its like. As it is, we keep going back and forth with half the country hating the gov and each other. I think I speak for many on both sides when I say, we are tired of the red and blue.
“I want the USA to suffer and die”
Ftfy. Only one party is actively funded by our enemies and is enacting favorable policies to them.
Yes. Yanks occupy my country. I want them all dead.
The democrats were committing genocide. GTFO with the “funding our enemies” Ultranationalism.
You are right about one thing though, I do want the USA to suffer and die, given both sides are fully committed to nationalism and genocide.
Really‽
Of course
This was in Canada and we asked people, how much would you pay to clean one lake from acid rain pollution? And we asked other people, how much would you pay to clean up all lakes in Ontario from acid rain pollution? And people gave roughly the same number.
Point is, the vast majority of people are black and white thinkers. You’re either cleaning pollution, or you’re not. 100% of the party supports cutting off aid to Israel, or they’re all literally committing genocide. You are merely one of the vast majority.
What are you talking about? What do lakes in Canada have to do with the fact that the Democratic Party is fully institutionally committed to fully supporting Israel and its extermination campaign?
Republicans are fully committed to supporting Israel and its extermination campaign. Democrats have several members who have called for ending aid to Israel. They are not the same.
https://www.axios.com/2025/04/03/senate-democrats-cancel-military-aid-israel
Only as many token Democrats are allowed vote against this as will not block it. It’s political parlor trick known as the rotating villain. See also the parliamentarian.
Democrats have several members who have called for ending aid to Israel.
Like 3 right. so 99% the same. So we’re back to telling people to be ok with just slightly less evil. Whcih was tried in the last election and failed spectacularly.
15 Senate Dems vote to cancel billions in Israeli military aid
There’s 49 senate Democrats, which means 30.6% of Senate Democrats have voted for ending aid to Israel. 0% of Republican senators voted to cancel aid to Israel.
Furthermore Republicans absolutely love to abuse pro-Palestine people in the worst ways they can, including arresting and deporting pro-Palestine people and cutting off funding for colleges that allow you to protest. I don’t think that’s “slightly less” evil.
Finally even “slightly less” evil is by definition less evil. Getting in a car crash at 80 MPH is only slightly less likely to kill you than getting in a crash at 90 mph. So what’s the point of hitting the brakes?
To be honest, to someone who’s observed this conflict for a long time, your side is getting its ass kicked. Israel has taken more land for 8 decades and no one is stopping them as they take more. You need every last advantage if you want to turn the tide. Don’t be lazy, make the necessary distinctions between those who might help you and those who will do whatever a judge will allow them to do to harm you.
To be honest, to someone who’s observed this conflict for a long time, your side is getting its ass kicked.
What is your “side”? Neither the GOP nor the DNC are on my side. They’re on their donors’ sides. On the side of Zionists, the military-industrial complex, and other corporations that benefit from US imperialism & Israeli settler-colonialism.
Israel?
Again…
Again what?
I sometimes forget this place isn’t inhabited by eighty year olds
WTF is this even supposed to mean lmao
ok
“I want the USA to suffer and die”
trueeeeee 💯💯💯
Your oligarchy sponsors both parties all the time.
I am not in possession of them.
Only one party is actively funded by our enemies
You don’t need to be in possession of anything to acknowledge the easily verifiable fact that they are both sponsored by them.
“our enemies” LOL you Americans are so ridiculous. Turn off the TV, you’re just some dope who works for a living, absolutely no one is your enemy except the dictatorship of capital who are represented by political parties in your country and run capitalism.
Both of your parties carried on illegal wars in my country, toppled the government, left a power vacuum that consumed my family and I still don’t think of you as my enemy.
So you’re calling Putin a good guy now? Not the best look.
Thinking of politics in terms of good guys and bad guys is kindergarten-level.
I literally said nothing about Putin, you brought him up out of nowhere. Maybe you should go to a psychologist and get your paranoid delusions under control.
You should ask yourself why this is what you got from the comment you replied to. Because that’s very clearly not what was said.
This is a fucking bonkers take. Nowhere was Putin mentioned. You people have completely lost your grasp of reality.
You calling Israel a good guy now? Not the best look
Only one party is actively funded by our enemies
Incorrect, both parties take money from Wall Street. Only a tiny, tiny minority of the Democrats don’t, and those spoiler Democrats are hated by the DNC far more than the DNC opposes their esteemed Republican opposition.
If you refuse to see the capitalist oligarchs are the enemy that created the conditions for Trump, then nevermind and carry on, as there’s nothing that ever could convince you.
That’s what happens when lobbies can just buy your politicians
Yes, but Americans hating their government is exactly what got us here.
Doubling down on that sentiment is only going to make things worse.
You understand that, right?
