My mother, born, raised, and still lives in Norway, was anti-mask during COVID and refused to take the vaccine because of micro-robots (and the scary 5G towers), so we all know where she stands in certain topics. She also believes that Zelenskyy is the reason for Russia invading Ukraine…
Anyhoo, I was talking to her then other day, and she told me that I need to stop reading anti-propaganda. I laughed and asked if she could explain it, which she, of course, could not, but she said it’s a wording being used online all the time. I don’t frequent the sites she does, and I’ve known she’s been reading conspiracies for at least 10 years, but anti-propaganda? Does words not have meaning anymore?
If you ask me, anti-propaganda is facts, but hey, I might be wrong, considering English is my second language.
I don’t believe most people that go down this road are going to listen to any logic. Trying to combat it by telling them they are wrong and why just makes them dig their heels in even more.
You can ask empathetic questions and try to learn what brought her here. A lot of people start a normal amount of right wing, and then the internet feeds them more and more far right stuff and this happens. There’s a sense of community and belonging to these spaces.
If you care about her and want to continue the relationship, ask that neither of you bring up politics and just talk about your lives, see if she has anything good going on, and encourage local activities if possible.
Channel 5 did a movie called Dear Kelly about a guy who went full conspiracy after losing his house and I believe custody of his kids. In the movie they talk about past trauma leading to this obsession.
Try to be compassionate if you can. It can be very difficult depending on the person and the existing relationship but I think it’s the only real way forward. Alternatively I also think if they are abusive or too over the top just cutting ties with them works too.
It can be very frustrating, but I hope it works out. Good luck!
I guess this means that we’ve reached the point where folks have become so accepting of the bullshit they’re saturated in, that the idea of hearing the truth, is abhorrent to them.
that’s the entire basis for “news entertainment” like what rupert murdoch and vladimir putin pump out
Slightly off-topic, but you might find the latest video-essay from Contrapoints, Conspiracy, helpful.
Mother has spoken
“You cannot logic someone out of something they did not logic their way into.”
This is not true and I wish it wouldn’t be repeated ad infinitum.
I used to be a pretty hardcore christian and used logic to completely get rid of religion in my life.
I think there’s a disconnect here.
I also used to be a hardcore Christian and did the same thing. But the fact is, my own lived experience brought me out of it. No one could have sinply talked me out of my beliefs. It was literally all I knew. These were conclusions I had to come to on my own, because I was questioning them to begin with.
If I was not questioning the validity of it to start, I would not have looked for new amounts of information.
If people are not curious or open enough, they will stay in what they perceive to be their “truth”, with no amount of logic being able to sway them.
Basically, if they’re not searching for truth, presenting them with truth will not sway them.
It is not logical to take Christianity as a representation of all other religions.
For a debate about similarities and differences between the Abrahamic religions i can recommend to have a look at this informative and entertaining Panel.
Jews and Muslims also think many Christian concepts to be illogical, especially the concept of Trinity or Jesus as son of God, which we see in contradiction to the oneness of God.
The claim was that you can’t logic someone out of something that they didn’t logic themselve into.
I did not logic myself into having faith that christianity is true but I did logic myself out of it.
The thing is that there have to be an incentive to receive and accept that logic. Something beyond logic.
You can’t use logic against someone who is completely emotionally invested in a cause. They need to somehow be open to contradiction, which most cultists certainly aren’t.
So in that respect it could be said that you didn’t logic yourself out of it, because you had already accepted contradiction to your beliefs before you started using logic.
Just a wild guess here but maybe she meant propaganda that mostly incites people to oppose tendencies or groups rather than to support their own?
Oh and facts can be propaganda too and often are… In a universe with infinite facts, the ones chosen to be presented vs the ones chosen not to, the way the fact is framed in discourse and what is being suggested by presenting it… That’s where propaganda lives.
It’s more comfortable to think propaganda is about lies. There are a lot of lies of course, but most important is what is assumed to be understood as common truth when sharing a message. Subtext is everything.
If she can’t define it, how should we. Maybe you should just spam her with scientific articles and links to ground news.
So, she’s implicitly admitting that what SHE reads is propaganda…
I managed to logic my parents out of one thing.
My parents actually asked me if it was possible that the vaccines contained 5G micro robots.
After taking a moment to maintain my composure and put on my “pretend I wasn’t asked a stupid question and answer seriously” face, I asked them to take out their phone.
When the phone was in their hand, I asked them to consider the fact that it must be charged every day to keep working, and that the vast majority of the size of the phone was taken up by the battery. Then I pointed out that a device small enough to be injected wouldn’t have enough power to still be on when it left the needle.
Luckily I didn’t have to go further than that.
I think that’s the only time I’ve had any success pounding logic into them. I think the problem is they can’t think of me as anything but a child, except where computers are concerned.
They paid for my computer science degree, and they know I’ve been working in IT for 32 years, and I answer all their computer questions. So, if the subject is computer-related, I’m their expert. Anything else and I’m just a deluded child.
I haven’t tried talking to my mom about the SSA COBOL AI rewrite yet. I’m not sure if she heard about it or if she did whether she understood enough to even be concerned enough to ask me.
anti propaganda is still propaganda, even if it’s factual.
I started using anti-vaxx propaganda tactics satirically.
The goal is to show how the tactic is manipulative by applying it to something obviously not dangerous.
Water is easy, start insisting that “dihydrogen monoxide” is dangerous:
Celebrity just died? “They had dihydrogen monoxide before they died, maybe it killed them”
“All traffic fatalities in the last 5 years were link to people using dihydrogen monoxide”
“Dihydrogen overdoses kill people every year”
“Why is dihydrogen monoxide in everything? Why is big dihydrogen monoxide putting this in everything, what are they trying to do?”
“I bet Trump was on dihydrogen monoxide when he thought of his tariffs plan”
Etc
Did you know there are more hydrogen atoms in a single water molecule than stars in our whole solar system?
there are more hydrogen atoms in a single water molecule
Hydrogen atoms?! Didn’t they use that in the hydrogen bomb? And in the Hindenburg Disaster? OH THE HUMANITY!
Everything with a message is propaganda. If I tell you to where a mask to protect those around you it’s propaganda. Nobody is immune to propaganda.
Anti-propaganda would definitely mean factual information without bias or a message. It’s not a real thing though, so in their meaning they clearly just mean anything they disagree with.
I do think that we could give information without propaganda if we really mean it.
Or at least there are levels of propaganda.
My personal take is that propaganda is not true, like actual lies.
I know that “the best propaganda is true” and just excluding other information. But purposely giving just a small part of the information is a lie regardless, to me at least.
But if we were to give all the possible information on any matter I don’t think it could count as propaganda.
And, this is the funny part, this is my own propaganda, because one of my political beliefs is that we could make politics in a healthier way without using the “evil” tactics for a “good” outcome.
If you ask me, anti-propaganda is facts
You know how “woke” (awake; aware of what’s going on) is considered a negative by the far right?
Their entire point is to abandon the facts of reality and instead live in a dream world where only their imagination is real. Facts and people who cling to the real world are their enemy to that end.
Wait so the alternative to anti-propaganda is just plain propaganda. She wants you to read propaganda?
No, she specifically told me to stop reading anti-propaganda 🤣
I feel like the word propaganda gets a little misused. There’s so much negativity attached to it, but propaganda at it’s core is media that tries to persuade someone. So media trying to undo misinformation about COVID is also propaganda.
Wouldn’t it just be facts?
That’s what I said lol
Propaganda isn’t necessarily lies. It is just biased towards the author’s agenda with the goal to persuade a target demographic. For example: an article (or pamphlets being air dropped over their lines) blasting Russia for summarily executing their own troops for retreating would both be factual and propaganda.
That said, I agree with your sentiment. Facts counter the ‘undesirable propaganda’.
