Alrighty,
So your system knows the exact situation and still is slowing down my bike, just at the moment I need to accelerate to avoid being overrun by that large truck heading into me.
How stupid are these folks? We’ve got rules, when people don’t follow those rules, you fine them. Case closed.
No system to prevent a bike speeding, teach people to obey the law.
If you’re in a situation where you need to outspeed a truck to not die, you have tp consider your life choices. I can’t even imagine a situation that could lead to it, if we don’t count “I just randomly started to cross a busy road” ones.
This makes no sense in the geographical context. The reverse is usually true here in the Netherlands. Modded electric bikes and scooters go way above the legal limit and put themselves in danger by speeding across infront of trafic. Where cars have to suddenly account for them beeing somewhere quicker then expected/ coming out of “nowhere”.
It’s relatively common for a car to merge into you where I live. If you’re adjacent to the front wheel it’s safer to accelerate the rest of the way than it is to brake.
Edit: it’s also insane that they’re trying to do this with e-bikes before cars.
So, implement it in cars… Lethal machines that need to be limited.
Imagine someone suggested this for cars
It is already the case for new cars in EU from july 1st
Wait seriously? Do you have a link or name to search for?
My current (2023 model) has such sensors and cameras to detect speed limits and switches cruise control based on it. It gets it wrong way too often to actually enforce it. E.g. 50kmh roads turning into highways and the car not recognising the highway sign due to a bush, the fact that Dutch highways have different speed limits at different times often without clear signing, or even the opposite problem where it’ll see a 120kmh sign from another lane and active cruise will suddenly speed me up to that on a 50kmh bend.
Damn, finally. Can’t wait to see this actually take place. Only ambulances, firefighter or such services that genuinely need the speed and can justify it should be able to go fast in a city. On a highway where everybody are in properly protected vehicle all going in the same direction, sure, go fast, but a city where people actually live, kids walk to school, people walk their dogs, why going over the speed limit where you could literally kill someone.
July 2024 is very close but I wonder what will be the percentage of cars on the roads supporting ISA. I imagine less than 1% so curious about the rate of change. I imagine that due to LEZ though it could go relatively fast. There is hope after all for a city genuinely made for people.
I’m all for it too. We are in the minority but it would have so many advantages. Beyond just speeding it reduces the desire for aggressive driving too.
Yeah I’ve been wishing for something like this for a long time. Actual conversation I once had:
“Drugs are illegal because it’s bad for you! We’re protecting you against your bad choices!”
“OK then, it’s illegal to go faster than 130km/h everywhere in France, why don’t you protect me and others against my bad decisions and forbid selling cars that go higher than that?”
Mumbles something about personal freedom
sure, 2019 EU regulation, to apply in 2022 and 2024 : https://road-safety-charter.ec.europa.eu/resources-knowledge/media-and-press/intelligent-speed-assistance-isa-set-become-mandatory-across
you still can de-activate it, but you have to do it every time you run the car.
To stay in topic : In some cities there is already an automatic speed limit to 5km/h in certain areas (packed narrow streets in city center, around schools…) for rental scooters, so it is not surprising they want to extend it to all electric mobility. Even for cars speed limit is often limited at 30 km/h in city centers.
They should!
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a46554218/new-car-regulated-speed-limit-california-bill/ California is already trying.
Same with speed-limiters for cars, etc.
I wish cars would get speed limiters installed. Trucks and trailers especially, why does a truck try and overtake a car anyway? Or another truck?
Why stop only at e-bikes? Get them installed inside mobility scooters as well, slow down Grandma!
There are no US roads I am aware of where the speed limit is over 80mph.
Why can a stock US car go faster than 80mph, then? Why does NHSTA approve of cars that can go double, triple that speed? Makes no sense to me, for sure. Especially when similar agencies are doing idiotic and pointless shit like banning Kei Trucks for “safety” reasons when these vehicles are objectively safer and better for the public than any current-model “light truck” 120mph+ road yacht.
Europe approached this same question with a pretty straightforward answer: Intelligent Speed Assistance.
It’ll be mandatory relatively soon for all new cars, as far as I am aware. It’s already mandatory for new cars in the EU. There’s some nasty privacy implications of it, obviously. Very possibly nasty enough to bring me to a “no” overall on the idea. But the safety considerations are without doubt correct.Intelligent Speed Assistance is great, went to Spain a few years back and essentially the car would know the limit of each road and give you a little signal/sound each time you went over. Great feature tbh, took about a day to get used to it at first but after that it was smooth sailing.
Texas has a toll road with an 85 mph speed limit https://www.foxnews.com/auto/texas-opens-highway-with-85-mph-speed-limit-fastest-in-america-is-it-too-fast
Always good to get the US perspective on an article about Amsterdam
We Europeans often share our view on US’s business, and you want to gatekeep Americans from sharing their view on European’s stuff? The whole point of a link aggregator with comments is people sharing their view.
I didn’t know that, sounds incredibly dystopian tbh. Guess I’ll have to keep my dinosaur of a car running as long as possible.
First, you have to catch them. Without plates on the bike, they become anonymous asap.
Secondly, you need to understand us Dutch. Rules are for the Germans, as it’s always smart to ask forgiveness than permission (read: catch us if you can)
I see the German Maneuver app coming for e-bike, soon™️.
Was amazed that the ebikes in Switzerland have number plates.
Then realised it’s Switzerland and of course they do
Anything motorised that’s used in traffic should have license plate to be fair. Kudos to the Swiss
For anyone that might be interested in this: it’s only for certain ebikes. Standard ebikes that only pedal assist up to 25km/h don’t need anything special over a regular bike, which afaik is the standard limit in Europe. You can get ebikes that go up to 45km/h and they are regulated more like mopeds, requiring a number plate, rear view mirror, and that the rider wears a helmet.
Oh, it’s coming for more countries. In Spain no new ebike/scooter is sold without plates since 2024, and in 2027 it will be illegal to go through puvlic spaces without a licensed plate. This 3 year gap is so that people that bought a scooter in 2023 don’t feel too cheated out.
People in this thread clearly have never been to Amsterdam. We have protected bike lanes, and where there is mixed traffic, bikes have preference and are actually respected by larger vehicles.
On the other hand, there has been an increase in accidents due to electric bikes going too fast mixed with normal bikes and pedestrians.
Also eBikes in the Netherlands don’t have acceleators unless they’re illegally modified.
E-bikes elsewhere have accelerators and not just pedal assist? Wouldn’t that make it an electric scooter?
In the US it’s really common to have an accelerator.
Interesting. If I’m not mistaken, here if it has an accelerator then it has to be registered with a license plate and it’s not considered a bicycle.
Only pedal assists electric bikes which go up to 25kph are allowed.
I think if it has pedal assist as an option it’s OK, as long as it doesn’t have more than a certain amount of power. I’m not certain, but I think it’s something like that.
That’s also my understanding.
I’ve been in so many close calls with e-scooter riding in sidewalks in my city. But it’s always a specific kind of asshole that does that.
In my city, that specific kind of asshole is someone with multiple DUIs, since they can still legally ride an E-bike
This seems ripe for workarounds.
It’s not too complicated to fix a motor to your normal bicycle. I wonder how well this will implemented.
That said I’m surprised this is coming from Amsterdam, considering they’re both very pro bike. And I also see very little controversy coming from the Netherlands in general (farm laws primarily)
Very pro bike but only bike. Pretty much any other modality device is banned from public bike paths.
Is this the same system they use to slow down basically everything at AMS? Like seriously, that’s the worst, dirtiest major international airport I’ve ever had the misfortune of having to use.
Overcontroll of citizens free will. A recurrent problem in northem europe. Because the goverment knows your safety and ethics better than yourself. And as some people view it:
Because of that they have the right to force your actions into what works best with society. Because individuals don’t matter just collectives. Because enforcing is justified as long as it has an ethic basis, whatever it is.
It sounds dystopian and it is. Societies of the penitence, societes with ideals more religious than real religions. Where suicide rates are high, and society happines also is.
Yeah, it should be more like America, land of the free and happy, where suicide rates are lower!
I’m European
Congrats
Then why you bring up united states? Did i ever mention them?
We’ve got that here. You jam a stick in the spokes, then throw the bike and the rider in the canal. Lots of fun.
People need to start registering and insuring bikes and bikes used in public just like cars in my opinion.
Have them use their own license plates and everything.
If you get three fines for going too fast on your bike let it get confiscated for a few weeks/months.
Switzerland had this up until 2012, when it was abolished because it cost more to administer than it was worth.
Includes kids then right?
Sure thing, have the parents register the bikes when they buy them. If the kids aren’t responsible the parents get the fines and can decide if the kids get to keep their bike or not.
As long as there’s close to zero bureaucracy and the process is seamless and digital, sure. I’m totally against anything that puts less people commuting by bike on the streets, and complicated registration is one such thing.
Many bike shops will register the bike frame serial number for you when you buy it.
I’m fine with slightly less bikes on the street if it’s just the people who aren’t responsible enough to be in public with them.
They can cause damage to property and injure people. If you drive a car without a seatbelt you get a fine. If you ride a bike without a helmet you should also get a fine. Head injuries cause strain on the healthcare system. There’s plenty of reasons to require people to register and insure bikes like vehicles.
The speed limits they listed seem so low given that 90% of bicycles in Amsterdam (or at least, those that are “victims” in traffic accidents) are unpowered. I’m not even a hobbyist cyclist, but on my (unpowered) entry-level hybrid bicycle I rode faster than 25 km/h (or 15 mph) the last time I took it out… and heck, I can run faster than 15 km/h.
The accident stats also don’t back up the idea that e-bikes are a problem demanding regulation, which makes me think that there’s knee-jerk politics at play here rather than this being a clear-headed response to a real problem. I’ll explain how I arrived at that conclusion.
First of all, as an aside, it’s weird that they said “more than half of all traffic victims were on a bicycle,” when the metric here should be the number of traffic collisions caused by cyclists. But supposing that’s actually what they meant:
- if half of all accidents are caused by bicycles, then the other half are caused by cars and other motor vehicles. Since bicycles outnumber cars 4:1 in Amsterdam, that means cars are 4 times as likely to cause accidents as bicycles (startling low compared to how much more dangerous they are in the US). They recently lowered the speed limit of cars to 30 km/h, but I’m not sure if the stats take that into account. Maybe it needs lowered further, or maybe they should only allow cars with the same sort of smart governors installed that they’re testing out for e-bikes?
- One in ten of those cyclists was on an electric bike (meaning 5% of accidents were caused by someone on an e-bike). 57% of bicycles sold in the Netherlands in 2022 were electric, but bikes last a while and they have a ton of them. As of the start of 2023 they had an estimated 5 million e-bikes, and the country has 23 million bicycles total (more than 1 per person). This means that 22% of their bikes are e-bikes, and (assuming that ratio applies to bikes on the road in Amsterdam) then given that only 10% of accidents involving bicycles involved e-bikes, that means that unpowered bicycles are a bit over twice as likely to cause accidents as e-bikes. Honestly, though, the ratio of e-bikes to unpowered bicycles is probably higher - I would expect people are more inclined to ride the new bicycle they just bought rather than one of the ones they’ve had for several years.
Obviously these stats are fairly sloppy, but I worked with what I could find.
Assuming my conclusion is accurate, this still doesn’t mean that e-bikes are less dangerous than bicycles - the accidents they’re in may be worse - but it certainly doesn’t suggest that e-bikes are the problem. I’m aligned with the other commenters here - this isn’t going to address the problem of people riding already illegal e-bikes.
The tech sounds cool and I’d love if it could be applied to cars, too, even if it’s opt-in only.
25 km/h is a sporty bike ride tempo, not a going to the shops to get some food bike ride tempo. Especially considering that most bikes here are upright sitting city bikes rather than sporty, leaning forward bikes.
Maybe in NL.
On my bike commute (about 4km one-way) lightly down hill I can easily reach 30km/h.
Uphill the same route (depending on how fit I am) I can more or less pull 25km/h through.Though I am not in a busy city. I would probably get killed with the way I am driving where I live.
I have a step through frame that you sit upright on. 20-25km/h is my average commuting speed for getting to work and going to the shops. I regularly have to push to 30km/h+ because of motor traffic trying to ride up my ass even though I’m in the designated bike lane. (cars in Australia like driving fast in the bike lanes to avoid the chicanes on the road designed to slow motor traffic for cyclist safety)
If ebikes are disproportionately represented in cycling accidents, then I would argue it’s not the speed, it’s the barrier to entry. People who have never ridden before, people who aren’t physically able to ride a standard bike, these groups make up a significant portion of ebike riders because ebikes are accessible.
Yes, speed will contribute to this, people with limited riding experience being able to ride fast, possibly without the physical fitness required to control a bike at high speed.
The issue then isn’t the speed itself, but rider education and training.
If ebikes are disproportionately represented in cycling accidents
To be clear, based off the (incomplete) data I have, it looks like e-bikes are under-represented. 22% of bicycles are e-bikes and e-bikes only make up 10% of cycling accidents.
It’s possible the 10% stat was of total accidents, making it 20% of cycling accidents, meaning they’d be properly represented. Or maybe the stat is from multiple years ago, when e-bikes made up 10% or less of bikes on the road. Or both, in which case they would be over-represented, at which point it would at least make sense to include the stat.
If they are over-represented, what you said would make sense! And at that point, I would think it would be most effective to focus on providing more opportunities for training and education to riders. Maybe they’re already doing that, too, and this is just one more thing they’re exploring.
The US has several proposals for this on cars. You say opt in only. How about this: when you exceed the speed limit the car automatically notifies the government so they can find you. You can opt-in to have the car automatically control you top speed so you don’t get fined.
The tech I’m talking about isn’t related to speed limits, but zones where pedestrians, particularly children, are much more likely to be in the street.
when you exceed the speed limit the car automatically notifies the government so they can find you.
I assume you meant “fine”; regardless, why is there a need for that in order to enable the second piece?
You can opt-in to have the car automatically control you top speed so you don’t get fined.
Change that to “You can enable a feature that will automatically reduce your set cruising speed (or, if you’re not using cruise control at that point, give you tactile feedback on the accelerator foot pedal) when you enter an area where pedestrians are in the street or are expected to be in the street (i.e., there’s a cross walk up ahead and a pedestrian has triggered it).” Or, to summarize similar to what you said: “You can have the car automatically reduce your speed when necessary so you don’t kill people.”
The “zones” should have lower speed limits. That is a traffic engineering problem.
The need for the opt in process is to counter the (stupid) arguments of I need to be able to drive fast to get my grandma to the hospital.
You don’t need “tactal feedback.” You need to limit the speed of the vehicle, like a rev limiter. Why do you need the ability to break the law?
I don’t have the data to back it up, but as someone who lives in the Netherlands I can tell you that e-bikes definitely seem like a problem. People who ride a normal bike to go somewhere definitely don’t go faster than 15 kph on average. You totally can do so if you want, just like you can run everywhere instead of walking, but then you might arrive sweaty and out of breath. E-bikes allow people who don’t usually have the physical strength to cycle that fast to suddenly go 25 kph without much effort. Especially children and elderly are a problem. The bikes are heavy, meaning that they’re hard to control for these groups. And children and elderly also both often lack the awareness of their surroundings needed for driving this fast. I’ve seen many dangerous situations where these groups on an e-bike yeet into a crossing, suddenly have to brake due to other traffic that they failed to account for, and then almost fall over or crash.
E-bikes have a way too large speed difference with normal bikes, and imo they’re definitely a danger. Anything that makes them slower is imo a good thing.
I can easily ride my bike at 25-30km/h on flat even surface.
Light hills are more difficult on the long run but I can probably manage 20km/h.Edit:
A relative worked in the ER so I have some ideas why e-bikes are maybe more prone to accidents. My theory: Older folks.
The usual demographic driving e-bikes usually are/were +50 years old.
With reflexes being not what they were and them going out more due to being mobile again, they surely are more prone to be involved in traffic accidents.Makes sense, and is aligned with the “reduced barrier to entry” theory posited by another commenter. Just to be clear, though, what I read (though very imperfect stat-wise) suggests that e-bikes are less prone to accidents, not more.
If the state can control your bike, you don’t actually own it.
Our bike
Lol imagine you are trying to go max speed to not get robbed, they see you are going too fast and slow you down. Then the robber catches up and robs you lol
No, it’s more to limit speed on some streets, when you have a 60lbs ebike with a 180lbs guy on it going over 60mph in a busy street downtown, it’s fucking dangerous.
- AFAIK 60km/h let alone 60mph e-bikes aren’t road legal in the Netherlands. 60mph is something like 95km/h. To give you an idea, most motorways are 100km/h in the Netherlands. To drive something that fast you’d need a full motorcycle license, insurance, etc.
- Certainly they’re not allowed on cycle paths.
- Even if they were, Amsterdam has a citywide speed limit of 30km/h. That’s under 20mp/h.
But more importantly, e-bikes are supposed to have a speed limiter set to 25km/h anyway.
In addition to what everyone else is saying, any e vehicle able to go that fast weighs more than 60 pounds. You use a random number generator for this post?
I’m sorry but could you repeat that with measurements that aren’t straight out of the 14th century?
Perhaps washing machines or football fields?
That’s like a third of a washing machine with a washing machine on top of it traveling at 880 football fields an hour!
Good point I had no idea those went that fast. This does sound difficult to police, I assume they dont need insurance for those either?
They are not going that fast. Don’t know where those numbers are from… ebikes are limited to 25km/h to be considered a bicycle.
Amsterdam slowly becoming like India with all those rules 😂
I don’t get it, does India require speed limiters on ebikes?
