I want to donate to a linux phone. I believe in linux and I want a linux phone. Maybe we can use one in very few years as a normal daily driver. It’s getting closer and closer every month.
I want to donate that we get there sooner. But which project? I’m following postmarket but I’m not sure if they are the most promising. What’s your stance on this? To which project would you give your money to accellerate it?
The main problem is political not technical. The market had been allowed to become a duopoly and too many critical things now need an app on an Android or Apple phone. The worse I know is banks needing an app for authentication for their online banking. No separate security device anymore, those are ewaste apparently.
Public EV chargers where you can only control them from an app.
Riding book at theme parks. The cases are growing. Even the app is just wrapper of hidden web page!
Frankly I think regulation is required to get competition in the market. Not the only tech one either. Why is it so hard for law makers to see monopoly in tech?
Can’t Linux phones run android apps pretty seamlessly via waydroid anyway though?
Increasingly lots of stuff won’t work without all of the Google services. Banking apps won’t run on root devices or anything odd they detect.
Even without that, I can say how seamless it is.
Banking apps won’t run on root devices or anything odd they detect.
Banking apps will run in Android emulation layers on GNU/Linux.
That’s good, though I still think it’s a problem they exist. I mean a lot of apps are a webpage wrapped in an app anyway, so why not just a webpage and skip the platform dependence.
None. Linux phones are not going to be daily driver worthy in a long time. We already got our FOSS Linux based mobile OS, it is called Android.
If you want to donate to Linux devs, sure do it. But delusion about Linux phones is a futile and even dangerous exercise if you needed the phone to work in critical times.
Linux phones are not going to be daily driver worthy in a long time.
My friend’s daily driver is a PinePhone. So daily driver worthy.
None of my PinePhone owning friends say it’s “quite there yet” to be a daily driver. I have been asking them every six months if it’s time to take the plunge.
To people down voting you, it’s important to note that Google-free, pure FOSS Android based OS do exist.
This is what you should be looking at if you want a fully Open Source phone OS, with no privacy issues (no phoning to Google servers).
if you want a fully Open Source phone OS
That’s not the topic of OP’s post.
For me, the best is e/OS, which is based off of LineageOS, but with extra privacy features to de-google. Just get a compatible phone, and run that.
An Android phone isn’t what’s referred to when people say “Linux phone”. What they’re referring to is a phone running GNU/Linux, typically running one of the GNU/Linux phone shells/desktop environments.
Android is Linux-based, even if it’s not a Gnu/Linux distribution. Besides, eOS is different enough from Android, since it barely works with existing Android apps (you’ll need to use the microG lib to do so, which is optional). Its UI is iPhone-like too,so it’s not comparable to other Android looks either. In other words, I’d say e/OS sits in a place that it’s kinda its own. Not Gnu/Linux and not quite Android either.
And let’s face it, no gnu/linux distro is mature enough to be a daily driver on a phone. Not a single one. I’ve tried them all. The best options are still Android-based: LineageOS if you don’t care to be truly an Android, or e/OS if you want something that it’s kind of its own beast (still based on LineageOS underneath). And that’s why I suggested e/OS.
That is still based on Android. Not quite what OP is looking for, but definitely more convenient, being compatible with any Android app. I use LineageOS myself.
Don’t do this.
Android is already Linux on a phone and it’s bad.
Donate to normal Linux on computers. There is an ever expanding mess of packages that need to be updated, fixed, hosted, maintained, streamlined, back ported and generally massaged into functionality with whatever goofy distro you pick.
Donate to Linux on computers instead.
For the vast majority of people these days, a phone/tablet is their computer, and a laptop/desktop cannot fulfill the same use cases. So if someone makes the very reasonable request for a phone recommendation, telling them to just use a laptop/desktop doesn’t make any sense. It would be like someone asking for a recommendation for a moped, and responding “don’t bother, just get a Ford F150”.
No, it’s not like that at all.
The op didn’t ask for a phone recommendation and I didn’t recommend instead that they use a laptop or desktop.
The op said they want to donate to a Linux phone because one day they believe they’ll be able to use a Linux phone. They want to pick the right one to give money to so it’ll have the best effect towards that end.
I said they shouldn’t do that because they can already use a Linux phone and there are tons of other Linux based projects where the money will go much farther.
We ought to be looking at this from a completely different perspective though: op is trying to maximize the value their donation has, and that’s a bummer. They should just donate to the one they like and not worry about effectiveness.
Apologies if I misunderstood your meaning when you said “android is already Linux on a phone and it’s bad”. If android is sufficient for your mobile Linux needs, that’s fine, I use it too. But it doesn’t fit the bill for everyone, and that’s the point of OP wanting to support an actual FOSS mobile effort. The alternatives you list don’t get them closer to what they’re looking for.
You’re right. I didn’t tell the op how to get what they’re looking for.
I told the op that they’re looking for the wrong thing, which is more helpful advice than dissecting the difference between pine and postmarket.
For all the people using phones as their computer I doubt there would be many who want to use linux. It’s a bit like someone asking for recommendations for a moped and you tell them to build it themselves.
I’m all for wanting linux on phones and supporting that but I have never ever known someone to be interested in linux and only use a phone/tablet. I can’t imagine working a CLI with a phone keyboard.
It’s not clear to me why you believe Linux on mobile implies typing into a CLI interface using a phone keyboard. We choose to use the CLI when it makes the most sense as an input method for the platform, not because it’s required by Linux.
As the post above pointed out, android is already Linux, so that’s already an option. But OP’s goal would be to have a FOSS phone given that phones are increasingly the computing device of choice for people, and there are very few feature complete FOSS options in that space right now.
I’m not saying it is CLI, I’m saying that I don’t want CLI on my phone. Android for instance is based on linux and isn’t a CLI for the most part.
Again, why I say it’s like asking someone to build it themselves when people who only use phones and not desktops/laptops don’t typically want to build it themselves.
Cool then don’t use a CLI on your phone, I don’t know anyone who would.
Android is Linux, you don’t need to build it yourself. That’s not a precursor to using Linux on mobile any more than using a CLI is.
Android is kinda linux, I think most people would find it weird to call it a linux distro. OP also isn’t looking for an android phone when they say a linux phone. For a linux phone there is a lot of build-it-yourself and people generally don’t want to flash their device to install it, especially people who only use a phone as their computer.
Android isn’t kinda Linux, it is actually Linux. It includes other proprietary stuff too, but Google regularly contributes their changes upstream. Like it or not, android is a prime example of what is possible on mobile using Linux.
Yes, I agree that OP isn’t looking for Android and wants to support an alternate option. But here’s where I think our disconnect is: the goal wouldn’t be for the alternate option to be a difficult to use, niche, build-it-yourself headache. That’s never anyone’s goal for anything. The goal is to make something roughly as good as, or better than Android, except FOSS.
It’s just that it takes funding and vision to make something as feature rich as android, and both are hard to come by.
The point of Linux on phones isn’t to have a phone that requires you to constantly fix it with CLI tools. The point is to have a free and open software platform for a device that is increasingly necessary for daily life.
As a side effect, developing Linux for phones would probably help us eliminate the need to reach for the terminal on desktop Linux as well. I believe snaps (which laid the groundwork for flatpaks) were originally developed for Linux on “smart” devices. The whole ecosystem improves when we try to bring Linux into a new domain.
P.S. I use termux (a terminal for android complete with its own tiny Linux environment) from time to time when I need to access my server over SSH. It’s a bit clumsy, but super handy!
Been enjoying my L5 for nearly a year. There are for sure problems but really it works as a phone and as a small Linux PC. I really want Crimson to come though, PostmarketOS and Mobian look very attactive.
Postmarketos with phosh works “fine” with the pinephone.
In my opinion postmarketOS is the most promising mobile Linux OS now. But the phones? Only OnePlus 6 is good. PinePhone is a project to look at as well but the hardware is not as good from the regular user’s perspective
Pine64 has also had terrible communication for a while now and their site has had technical issues for a month. They have not filled me with confidence as of late.
postmarketOS is great though.
Does anyone know what’s going on?
Well, I can at least say that any of my recent orders promptly arrived in perfect working condition, even though the communication is absolutely very lacking.
I think the Fairphone 4 is also worth checking out. It works great with Ubuntu Touch, SailfishOS seems to be doing well on the device, and there’s developments towards PostmarketOS. :)
Ubuntu Touch is almost dead, Sailfish is proprietary and many many phones have that kind of postmarketOS support. I’m talking about things that are already usable
Why do you think Ubuntu Touch is almost dead? The development community is pretty active. They recently finished the huge task of upgrading to 20.04, and are hard at work getting up to speed with 24.04, at which point they will have paid back a lot of technical debt.
Ubuntu Touch on a supported device is probably the most usable experience you can have with Linux phones as a daily driver at the moment, especially as Waydroid runs quite well on many devices to fill the gaps.
Oh I thought they weren’t planning to update it further than 20.04
Fairphone looks really cool, but I feel like too big for my weak little hands
I’d probably just refurb an old old Android phone. Would love to buy hardware that is more ethically sourced though
In the end, nothing is better than second hand!
Lineage os seems to be the most promising. We already have F-droid so the apps are there and the good news is that for every component that Google makes proprietary Lineage os is creating and maintaining a free software version.
It uses the Linux kernel yes but not what OP is asking at all
I would not call Android a Linux. It may have the kernel but it isn’t much GNU in it
It may have the kernel but it isn’t much GNU in it
Wait, does this mean Alpine Linux is not Linux?
It can be free like Linux so it counts in my book. I wouldn’t consider Google Android free but Lineage os counts
It is released under apache 2 license, not GPL. It is certainly free software, but I wouldn’t say it is as free as linux.
An Android phone isn’t what’s referred to when people say “Linux phone”. What they’re referring to is a phone running GNU/Linux, typically running one of the GNU/Linux phone shells/desktop environments.
None because a phone is useless without applications.
applications from the Play Store or App Store are something people have to get and use everyday
I haven’t made the full switch to mobile Linux yet, but my Android phone has 0 proprietary apps besides the firmware and it’s 100% usable
in my country, if you exclude browser-based banking no bank will work
Well, the question is why are you excluding web banking? While it’s less convenient at times, banking apps collect every piece of info about you they possibly could collect, they try to prevent you from “messing” not only with the banking app, but with the phone itself - they are one of the most egregious cases of “normalized privacy invasion”, so web banking is much preferable to banking apps. If you’re allergic to webapps for some reason (which would be a very weird thing to say for someone who installs banking apps), fine, switch to a bank that allows doing operations via SMS (that’s the only feature I miss from Sberbank).
the NFC / contactless payment system here requires either Apple Pay, Google Wallet or a proprietary app develop by a banking alliance
Why are you using contactless payment? Unsatisfied with the amount of data your bank collects, you want to give the same data to Apple/Google? What’s the problem with just carrying a card with you? I genuinely don’t understand. This certainly isn’t a “100% unavoidable requirement”, but just a fad you didn’t even think whether you could do without
Govt provides electronic versions of your identity card, driving license and a ton of other cards related to the govt that also require an Android/iOS app they make…
That’s absolutely true, which is egregious. You should petition your government to open-source those apps (public money = public code), you should reverse engineer those apps to get their functionality without the proprietary code (if they just show a barcode/qr code/picture, it’s easy, but it gets harder if it uses NFC). Either way, this isn’t something you “need”, as carrying your documents around really isn’t a problem… for me, anyway, YMMV I guess
Even something simple like setting up a TP-Link Tapo wireless security camera will require an app these days.
…first you buy an IoT device that connects to “the cloud”, then you say you need proprietary software to access it. Of course you do, that’s the kind of device you bought - the vast majority of IoT devices are made with zero regard to the user’s privacy and security, to hackability or right to repair.
That said, it’s very easy to find hackable devices if you do the bare minimum research. Examples from my home - Valetudo (FOSS robot vacuum firmware) on Viomi V2 Pro, Tasmota (ESP32 firmware) on an AiYaTo light bulb. This is not a problem with mobile Linux, but rather you choosing a device that’s made to collect data from your phone.
In conclusion, everything you listed so far isn’t a problem with mobile Linux, but a problem with your approach to software/hardware freedom. Chances are, you aren’t a hacker, and by extension aren’t a part of the target audience of a Linux phone. That’s fine, but don’t pretend there’s some insurmountable barrier preventing anyone from using it - it’s just that you don’t need it. Waydroid exists, which makes all of the claims in your comment invalid (besides maybe banking apps which may detect Waydroid), but you won’t consider Linux phones viable anyway - because, again, you don’t need it.
So while I agree with some or the majority of your commentary I would like to add a bit of context.
Well, the question is why are you excluding web banking? (…) If you’re allergic to webapps for some reason
I’m not allergic, I just happen to live in a country where banks unfortunately force you get their mobile app for certain operations / you can’t do everything on their web app because of “security” . There’s a big thing in Europe around secure transaction authorizations that require a secure 2FA methods (not SMS) and banks here decided to implement that in way that their mobile apps kinda work as a 2FA to the web version. Heck I can’t even generate a virtual credit card here without installing an app. Compatibility layers / emulation, such as Waydroid, even GrapheneOS is flagged by most of the banking apps here as well and they don’t allow you to proceed.
Why are you using contactless payment? Unsatisfied with the amount of data your bank collects
If I’m using the app from the banking alliance they won’t gather more info than what they already do whenever I swipe a debit or credit card on a payment terminal. I kinda becomes about convenience at that point. Obviously the same can’t be said for Apple Pay / Google Wallet and I avoid them.
Govt provides electronic versions of your identity card (…) Either way, this isn’t something you “need”, as carrying your documents around really isn’t a problem…
Actually that’s something I need, let me tell you why: I’m required to digitally sign a LOT of documents everyday and here you’ve two ways to do that. The classic one is by having a smart card reader in your computer, open a desktop app, choose a file and place the identity or professional card into the reader and type a PIN code. The second way is to open the application and click “sign with your phone”, this will prompt you to open the govt phone app and enter a PIN / biometric authentication there and the document will get signed as well. While the first option works fine it’s just annoying to have to carry a card reader around to meetings and other places and it also takes way more time for the desktop app to respond and sign the document if you se the identity card.
…first you buy an IoT device that connects to “the cloud”, then you say you need proprietary software to access it. Of course you do, that’s the kind of device you bought - the vast majority of IoT devices are made with zero regard to the user’s privacy and security, to hackability or right to repair. (…) That said, it’s very easy to find hackable devices if you do the bare minimum research
You proceed to give examples of vacuum cleaners and other stuff that is indeed easy to find more open.
I’m all for open-source IoT, I like it as an hobby and I run HomeAssistant and most of my IoT is DIY ESP32-S2 devices with sensors and relays. I also have some cheap relays and plugs from Aliexpress that are BL2028N and I managed to flash with ESPHome / Libretiny however things become a LOT harder when it comes to CCTV.
Cameras in general aren’t as easy as cheap plugs to deal with. There’s the OpenIPC project but it seems only to support very specific chips that are sometimes older, hard to find or not price/feature competitive with TP-Link offers.
For what’s worth TP-Link Tapo cameras (TC70, 71 etc.) aren’t that bad when it comes to privacy, there isn’t much “cloud”. They do require you to use their mobile app to setup the camera but afterwards you can just run them on an isolated VLAN / firewall them from the internet completely and you’ll still be able to use all of the camera’s features. Those cameras provide a generic rtsp stream that even VLC can play and there’s also a good HA integration that provides all features of the TP-Link Tapo application like pan / move / download recordings from the camera’s SD card and whatnot 100% locally / offline.
but don’t pretend there’s some insurmountable barrier preventing anyone from using it
No, but it would make my life considerably worse or at least impractical in some cases.
That’s why Lineage os and F-droid are probably the better bet.
Yes, even GrapheneOS or Calyx will provide a much better experience.
Oh yeah, my bank will definitely support Linux phones lol
Banking apps run in Android emulation layers on GNU/Linux. Your bank doesn’t need to support Linux phones.
Mine was fine with me using a rooted Android after an in person meeting - they just provided me a hardware 2FA device to use instead.
As long as your bank is as understanding, you could use Waydroid or their PWA on a GNU/Linux device
I have two banking apps that both run perfectly on Sailfish OS’s Android support layer. Obviously I’d prefer a native/webapp at a push but if for some reason you really need to use the banking app there are ways to do it.
The rain why I need nativa banking apps is because there are some features that are only available through the app and not with web banking. Another thing about those support layers is that banking apps usually know how to detect rooted devices and stuff like that and won’t work.
That’s unfortunate but it is what it is.
Another thing about those support layers is that banking apps usually know how to detect rooted devices and stuff like that and won’t work.
Android emulation layers emulate secure, non-rooted devices and banking apps work.
That’s unfortunate but it is what it is.
No, it isn’t.
If your banking app is proprietary then I’m not sure its worth supporting. Software should serve the user not the other way around.
If you must do mobile banking use a website as you can actually have some limited control.
If your banking app is proprietary
Are you drunk, what bank doesn’t have a proprietary application? lol
It doesn’t have a proprietary application I would use.
And Waydroid also exists
When I was looking a couple years ago Ubuntu Touch was by far the most developed and stable. Primarily because Canonical poured millions of dollars into its development before giving it up and dropping it, but the community has gone a long way to make it what it is today.
Probably not a popular choice on this community though.
It’s a friendly community, and Lomiri is a great DE that people have also gotten up and running on [other distros].
For the time being it runs better on Android devices than on “pure” linux phones such as the PinePhone, but I have great experiences with it. If you don’t depend on other IM services than Signal you could probably use it as a daily driver on several phones already.
@GravitySpoiled
I’ll trying to buy a pine phone as my first Linux phone as it’s cheap. Not great but would be okay for tinkering.
@linuxI found Ubuntu Touch/Droidian the most promising when I last tried to get a good Linux mobile setup. Everything was working and i could run any linux app i wanted. The only problem was mobile data configuration with ISP here in the UK. I would donate to whoever is making the best progress and having the most impact. There is so much variety of hardware with phones that a single (or very small number) of compatibility layers needs to emerge.
I would donate to whoever is making the best progress and having the most impact.
OP is asking who that is.
Apple Vision Pro
Lol, well *I* thought it was funny:-P. You might get fewer fake internet point reductions if you threw in a /s.
I love my Pinephone, not enough to use it as my main phone thou.
It’s running Mobian, mostly because everything else I have is running Debian in some form, but it looks like the largest project is PostmarketOS.
I would go with Lineage os on your current device. You can install F-droid so you won’t need to worry about Google and there proprietary ecosystem of data collection
