In an unexpected mask off, “secure” email and VPN provider Proton took the stance of siding with the fascist MAGA Reps. Proton’s services are no option for me and many others any longer. Let’s collect and discuss alternatives (E2E encrypted email and VPN) here 🔐👇
Always try to provide: -Server location (jurisdiction) -Governance -Integrity/trustworthiness/transparency -User experience/ease of use (grade 1 to 10, lets take Proton as a benchmark with an 8) -Pricing and links
If you knowalternatives setups, feel free to share, too.
#ProtonExodus
Background: https://lemmy.ca/comment/13913116
Before you decide to go back to Google or close your account, keep in mind that Proton became a non profit organization with the main mission of protecting your privacy. And as a non profit, they’re not trying to profit off of you in any way.
Going back to Google is the worst solution you can use. Remember that Google donated $1 million to Trump’s inauguration fund. Google also doesn’t care about your privacy. On the contrary, they’re selling your data and using it against you.
While the Proton CEO may be a nut case, he’s only praising the choice that Trump made as the candidate for the antitrust department. While that’s understandably stupid since I don’t believe Trump is going up stick up for the little guy now that he’s got Musk and Zuck in his pocket, at least he didn’t actively donated and enabled Trump either personally or through his platform and spread misinformation.
Think about it.
At least with proton, the fact that you’re different, that you’re 2SLGBTQ+, is safe. Or at least substantially safer than Google.
Why are there so many responses like this, saying not to go back to Google? The OP didn’t even mention Google as an option they were considering. I’ve seen zero discussion in any of the other posts around the fediverse where people have expressed any desire to use Google because of this. Why would anyone think that users who had already moved to Proton would find Google acceptable as an alternative right now?
This just feels like you’re trying to discourage actual conversation about alternatives by acting like the only options are Proton or Google, so we all ought to shut up and sit down.
Also, if you think merely becoming a non-profit means a corporation can never exploit people and isn’t interested in making money off of it’s customers, then I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
Because I looked at the discussion threads for this post and I saw a few early comments where people mentioned they would go back or stick with Google.
I’m not trying to shut down or discourage any discussion. Just pointing out to the people who said they’d go back that it’s not the best solution.
OpenAI was also a non-profit until a few months ago
No, Proton actually just went from being a company to a non profit recently for the purpose of remaining a privacy focused organization whose mission won’t change.
They have doubled down officially with their official Mastodon account https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503 I therefore consider this official opinion of Proton. Focussing on one aspect and completely ignoring the bigger picture of a luming fascist period in the most militarized economy of the world is just inacceptable. Proton just could have kept their mouth shut, but they decided not to.
This is extremely disappointing. :(
Yes, proton is about ten thousand times better than google, even with this board member’s stupid fully factored in.
Safer.
Well, they handed out activists’ metadata in the past, for the French authorities. In their position of an e2ee provider who controls both ends as a default, they are in a position where the can fuck people over. This is exactly what Snowden described as someone pointing a gun at you while saying “Relax, I am not gonna use it against you.”
So much for safety.
Ah, and my original point was: it is either safe or unsafe, the word saf_er_ means nothing during a genocide.
IIRC, this was because the user in question had set a recovery email for their account, which Proton either volunteered or was forced to give to the authorities. Definitely crappy behavior on Proton’s part. Don’t set a recovery email!
Worth mentioning Snowden used Lavabit. There’s a great history there.
Lavabit
Connection to Edward Snowden
Lavabit received media attention in July 2013 when it was revealed that Edward Snowden was using the Lavabit email address Ed_Snowden@lavabit.com to invite human rights lawyers and activists to a press conference during his confinement at Sheremetyevo International Airport in Moscow.[16] The day after Snowden revealed his identity, the United States federal government served a court order, dated June 10, 2013, and issued under 18 USC 2703(d), a 1994 amendment of the Stored Communications Act, asking for metadata on a customer who was unnamed. Kevin Poulsen of Wired wrote that “the timing and circumstances suggest” that Snowden was this customer.[17] In July 2013 the federal government obtained a search warrant demanding that Lavabit give away the private SSL keys to its service, affecting all Lavabit users.[18] A 2016 redaction error confirmed that Edward Snowden was the target.[2]
But what is the status now? Also, I think in the years to come the jurisdiction will also play a role. If the service is in the soil of a country that can subpoeana the encryption keys, then nobody is really safe.
Contents of email are safe.
But assume IPs are compromised.
Tweet is from early december. Why is it blowing up now?
I guess on the one hand people are anxious about Trumps inaugeration and on the other hand this is a great opportunity for competitors or otherwise opposed people to launch an astroturfing campaign off of it.
When looking at posts titled has gone “full MAGA” for saying they feel Trump is more likely to enact antitrust rules against big tech than Democrats who let them down the past years, is just absurd.
It is the same line of reasoning like claiming the WHO to have been a chinese asset because they supported some of Chinas anti-Covid measures.
Because it was just now retweeted by the founder of Privacy Guides.
The CEO “apologized” this morning (after being duly chastised, I’m sure):
Hi all, last night, a post from last year from my personal X account suddenly became a topic of discussion here on Reddit. I want to share a few thoughts on this to provide clarity to the community on what is Proton’s policy on politics going forward.
First, while the X post was not intended to be a political statement, I can understand how it can be interpreted as such, and it therefore should not have been made. While we will not prohibit all employees from expressing personal political opinions publicly, it is something I will personally avoid in the future. I lean left on some issues, and right on other issues, but it doesn’t serve our mission to publicly debate this. It should be obvious, but I will say that it is a false equivalence to say that agreeing with Republicans on one specific issue (antitrust enforcement to protect small companies) is equal to endorsing the entire Republican party platform.
Second, officially Proton must always be politically neutral, and while we may share facts and analysis, our policy going forward will be to share no opinions of a political nature. The line between facts, analysis, and opinions can be blurry at times, but we will seek to better clarify this over time through your feedback and input.
The exception to these rules is on the topics of privacy, security, and freedom. These are necessarily political topics, where influencing public policy to defend these values, often requires engaging politically.
The operations of Proton have always reflected our neutrality. For example, recently we refused pressure to deplatform both Palestinian student groups and Zionist student groups, not because we necessarily agreed with their views, but because we believe more strongly in their right to have their own views.
It is also a legal guarantee under Swiss law, which explicitly prohibits us from assisting foreign governments or agencies, and allows us no discretion to show favoritism as Swiss law and Swiss courts have the final say.
The promise we make is that no matter your politics, you will always be welcome at Proton (subject of course to adherence to our terms and conditions). When it comes to defending your right to privacy, Proton will show no favoritism or bias, and will unconditionally defend it irrespective of the opinions you may hold.
This is because both Proton as a company, and Proton as a community, is highly diverse, with people that hold a wide range of opinions and perspectives. It’s important that we not lose sight of nuance. Agreeing/disagreeing with somebody on one point, rarely means you agree/disagree with them on every other point.
I would like to believe that as a community there is more that unites us than divides us, and that privacy and freedom are universal values that we can all agree upon. This continues to be the mission of the non-profit Proton Foundation, and we will strive to carry it out as neutrally as possible.
Going forward, I will be posting via u/andy1011000. Thank you for your feedback and inputs so far, and we look forward to continuing the conversation.
Original post: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i2nz9v/on_politics_and_proton_a_message_from_andy/
Am I being paranoid when I notice that the binary at the end of his username translates to 88?
Phew! For a moment I thought you were talking about the steam compatibility thingy.
I thought they were talking about the elementary particle—I was afraid we’d have to find some other way of manifesting our physical existence.
Aww man! AGAIN?!?
If that proton goes nazi, I am going straight to the farm
You,…are being a spaz,…that’s all it is. An immature brat for no reason other than someone has a different view from what you believe.
tell me, are your human rights personally challenged by the trump administration? mine are, and I would like to maintain what rights I have now
There is not any kind of “human right” that is unversally recognized. You can’t depend on other people to approve of your existance. If you will not defend people you despise because of their views, you have no right to demand that other people have suty to care if you live or die.
The -40 votes on this brings the happy.
for some of us, particularly queer, black, trans, women, immigrant, and indigenous people, the stakes are higher than “i don’t personally agree with the ceo of proton.” our lives are being endangered both by the new admin’s policies as well as the emboldened cult associated with it.
this is not a “spaz” (offensive term by the way, so thanks for that) or brat move. it’s simply us doing what people always say to do: voting with our wallets. this move is bad for a lot of people. i’m thrilled for you that it’s not bad, but i ask you to see us saying it is bad not as your enemy, but as people who are vulnerable asking you to take a longer look at the bigger picture
*The Right:* The market should be free to decide.
*The Market:* Decides
*The Right*: OUtrAgEOuS
No, you are an eternal enemy that causes open warfare, a fight to the death.
We aren’t in an age anymore where differing political opinions are harmless. People aren’t debating mere tax policies anymore. Wake the fuck up.
Yes you are describing the intent of a boycott.
That guy prolly thinks that boycotting israel should be a felony lol
That’a OP chock as a customer, bootlicker
He doesn’t like something and he is making that change. You are the one being immaut twat about it
You could look at infomaniak, but I didn’t have the best experience trying out (or even getting started with) their services. Finding a provider that has all of Proton’s apps is going to be tough (or at least it was from me while I was looking to escape from Tuta). Good luck, tho.
Finding a provider that has all of Proton’s apps is going to be toug
Nobody should be using any provider as one stop shop… That’s how we got cooked by Google and Apple the first time folks.
Unbundle, mix and match…
Yeah it auck Proton did this but if you only got one proton service, it is eaiser to either do nothing or switch it.
I agree! I don’t use Proton’s VPN or their password manager for that reason. The equivalents I had in place already were fine and I didn’t feel the need to switch over everything, just some things.
I feel like I should pre-emptively switch to Keepass incase Bitwarden goes right wing.
I mean, Keepass is free open source software so the political views of the developers don’t matter as much.
I mean, Keepass is free open source software so the political views of the developers don’t matter as much.
So is bitwarden, you don’t have to use their servers.
+1 for keepass. Been using it for years and love it.
Escape from Tuta for what reason if you’re willing to share? I see it recommended a lot.
Oh boy, getting old here, let’s see if I can remember.
I think in part it was because they seemed unable to fix the Linux desktop client after months and months and months, and repeated support requests. Also, I had been a user of theirs for some time when they changed how their plans worked, and moved a feature I relied heavily upon (I think it was email templates—something you might never need!) to a much more expensive plan. Felt like I was being charged more for being a longtime user. I don’t know if they have cloud storage now, but at the time they didn’t, and Proton had that, along of course with mail and calendar—all of that for less than what Tuta was offering which was mail, calendar, and plenty of other features that were continuously promised but never released. So really just a bunch of little things that were important to me, but which other users might never miss.
Thanks for the writeup. It helps to know where to look to make an informed decision, when I finally have the time to sit down and de-google.
Wow!
Of all companies, this is one I didn’t expect.
Damn.
Why would this be unexpected?
Proton already handed over the IP of a climate protester to authorities several years ago, while boasting that they had a no log policy.
https://therecord.media/protonmail-forced-to-collect-an-activists-ip-address-in-police-investigation
Every time, in the past few years, that I bring this up, everyone just acts like I’m setting an impossible standard and no alternative exists.
Proton has been shady for years.
From reading that article it looks like they were only using and able to log the IP address when the person logged in to their protonmail account specifically - not VPN.
They even state that VPNs can not be forced to log under the same legal order and are treated differently so in this case it seems the activists were not using the VPN while accessing their emails.
Although I dont agree with even the logging of the email IP, it appears like the user shot themselves in the foot like that other case where someone used their real name in the username and that obviosly has to be logged in some way.
I didn’t know about this. I haven’t followed Proton closely for a while, but this…wow. Kinda lousy.
I wish I had heard of this earlier, that combined with these new political statements is enough for me to find something else.
the good news is this is a lesson to never trust any entity whose role in the world is to accumulate capital
What’s insane is that didn’t Proton just recently announce they were converting to a non-profit?
Yes, they did: https://proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation
Yea, and Andy Yen is only one of five members on the board of the Non-Profit organization, so you’ll just have to gamble that everyone else isn’t this weird (if you still want to continue using Proton services, that is, your choice 🤷♂️).
There is absolutely no way to verify any of Proton’s privacy claims. Why should I trust one for profit company over another?
... ... ....,, .
Sigh.
Goddammit. I’m so fucking tired.
This is how they win.
Like zombies, slow and steady, dumb and hungry
Perfect
Am I the only that don’t see this the same way as the rest? I am in way way endorsing or supporting MAGA, but they did take action against big tech (though for reasons of retribution) and I see Proton only acknowledging a good person being designated to lead the next antitrust efforts, apparently with a good track record.
Proton also acknowledges Lina Kahn who has done a great job, nominated under Joe Biden.
Ultimately, I feel like from a perspective of Proton, any win against Big Tech, is a good win, and I can’t disagree.
There is a longer discussion to be had around how the dems were supported by oligarchs and I think that’s what Proton is referring to, they decided to turn a blind eye under the Obama administration for instance. Bernie Sanders goes to lengths about this in this interview, illuminating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzkgWDCucNY
So all in all, maga sucks, new pick probably good, and in my view, proton not actually endorsing maga/trump but just acknowledging a good pick.
Did I miss something?
The main part of the message that pissed me off was the idea that GOP sides with the “little guy”. First, it’s demonstrably false. Second, he is a tech CEO. He wouldn’t recognise a little guy before his security crew has time to forcibly remove him.
Yes I fully agree with you.
Does that claim alone warrant the absolute backlash though? I personally feel like no.
Be tired with Tuta!
Uhg. How much longer until it’s more viable to self host…
I will prefer to pay Zoho Mail instead of supporting Proton Mail. I was just holding into them because of their support to privacy and security but the lack of support to Linux and now this. I will move on.
ZoHo’s CEO is no better https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sridhar_Vembu#Political_views
Its actually worse since Zoho CEO have more control compared to Andy Yen’s 1/5 of the voice on the board, as a non-profit organization.
I was mulling moving everything from Google to Proton. Guess I’ll keep my money for now.
Uggghhh I just upped for two years. Fucking asshats are all caving to the orange fuckhead. Probably off to Europe somewhere.
I believe they offer refunds if you cancel within 30 days.
Ask them for a cancellation and refund. Don’t explain the reason, just say you changed your mind, make up some excuse if they ask.
Why wouldn’t you tell them the reason?
Get the money back first, then say the reason. Don’t wanna bring up politics in case they wanna be a douche and deny refund.
Right, good point.
Or, do bring it up and if they’re a douche, contact your credit card company and have them issue a chargeback to the company (which costs them money). I’ve done this before to shitty companies that tried to deny legitimate refunds, it works.
I don’t use proton, but I would be grateful if you could share a link on how Proton sided with fascists.
Also, I use Mullvad for VPN and I host my own email
They didn’t exactly “side with fascists”, but Andy Yen, one of the board members on the Non-Profit that owns Proton AG, has very bad takes on politics, and just has a right-wing “Libertarian” vibe.
https://x.com/andyyen/status/1864436449942110660 (https://archive.is/l1WYU)
https://x.com/andyyen/status/1812442643726537182 (https://archive.is/ADc8C)
Huh, I wasn’t very concerned with your links… but I googled and found out Andy Yen is the founder. That’s alarming
True, but Tim Brenners-Lee is also on the board, and he historically has generally good takes on tech and politics.
People are often unwilling to go against the positions of the guy who created the World Wide Web.
If his presence at proton is the old thing holding back the stupid, then it isn’t as good a company as we has been thinking.
Libertarian and Republicans have nothing in common do not mix
There is a Venn diagram where all of us overlap.
Even the US Republicans and Trump supporters are distinct with some overlapping values.
AFAICT, it looks like all he’s doing is praising Trump’s pick for AG in the Antitrust division . . . although if you look over her Wikipedia page, you’re right, it doesn’t look all that encouraging.
Can someone on Mastodon ask the Proton CEO what it was exactly that she did that he likes so much? Anyone who can work at Fox for any length of time, frankly, is complete and utter shite.
God damnit I literally just got Proton going like 4 days ago.
i wanted to move my google stuff to Proton this year as a Backup for my self hosted stuff. Shame, seems like I need to put a little more time into managing my self hosted stuff
I was looking at Tresorit as a potential cloud option. I mean, not becausw of the Andy Yen stupid tweets debacle, its because Proton’s mobile app is utter garbage, can’t even download an entire folder when almost every other cloud provider can.
There are also Sync.com and Icecloud but I didn’t like those. Sync.com’s app looks outdated af, Icecloud makes extraordinary claims like how AES is built by the NSA and therefore is somehow “insecure” so they use a different algorithm. So Tresorit seems like the only one left that does encryption by default. (Mega’s predecessor was shut down before, so I don’t trust them for file longevity).
Anyone else got any other suggestions for cloud storage providers?
