Theoretical biologist here. This is an incredibly important book. I just bought it a few minutes ago and so I’m only partway through the beginning, but it’s summarizing everything people from my school of thought (complex adaptive systems theory, multilevel selection models, and so on) have been arguing for two or three decades. It’s a very fast read so far (probably less so if you’re less familiar with the points the author is making), but I really hope that this book has an impact that’s reflective of the timeliness and cohesiveness (as I am reading into what the author is preparing to argue) deserves.
Yeh! Good to see the rusty machine (and self-deprecating) model fading away and being replaced by real appreciation of the true marvels that have emerged over millions of years. (Science’s mechanical models were all so … 18th century!)
(Not so familiar with biology but did enjoy hearing about the tack Lee Cronin’s taken.)
Math controls nothing and only models them. It is CRITICALLY important to remember that mathematical models are ONLY models, no matter how closely they match any sampled data.
Everything is math, it’s what controls gravity and cell division and protein folding - there is no god it’s all just math
Of course the model is only a model but the point is you can use the model to predict real world responses, therefore you can test millions of things and do the one which is most likely to work
I think the difference here is between your conception that reality follows a mathematical model while their conception is that mathematical models follow and try to be reflective of reality.
I think their concern is that, if one believes reality follows math, when the model fails to accurately predict something, the person with the model may wonder what’s wrong with reality. If that person believed the model follows reality they would wonder what’s wrong with the model. The latter perspective will yield better results.
It’s the difference between saying “this is how it works” vs “to the best of my knowledge this is how it works.”
That’s ridiculous, if I think that one apple plus one apple is going to result in three apples then I try it and find it’s actually two I’m not going to blame the universe I’m going to know my understanding of arithmetic is flawed.
It’s not the math of the human made model that controls the universe that would be silly. The model is the current best approximation of the actual math that defines the universe.
An accurate model allows you to predict the outcome of events, like we can predict how many apples will be in the bag. With some things it gets very complicated because there’s lots of things and various possible states but we can model that with statistics and calculous and stuff. We can even make a set of all possibile results and use that as a map to tell us if something is possible, how likely it is and what we can do to make it more or less likely - nothing the guy said was controversial, we can map cellar interactions even if that requires using complex multidimensional math (mathematics have had to get used to doing this sort of math a lot recently so I’m sure they’ll manage)
No, you’ve internalized it in the wrong way. The mathematical model comes AFTER the real world. It is not related to the real world what so ever except in correlation. Correlation is not causation. ESPECIALLY with a human-made MODEL.
If the maths actually drove ANYTHING, you wouldn’t be saying, “most likely” to work…
Yes that’s a model, I’m not saying the model magically controls reality but that the underpinning reality is math - the reason you always have two apples in a bag when you start with one and add another is because of math, the human model of that isn’t controlling it but if we want two apples in a bag and we currently only have one then we can use our model to determine how many apples we need to add into the bag.
The same is true of more complex systems, if we can accurately model the cellar interactions then we can derive solutions in the same way
That’s the thing: It’s NOT math. Math is an expression of relationships. The underpinning of reality IS NOT math. Ever. Math is a simplification. Always.
You’re using odd ways of describing things to try and win a pointless argument, even if everything you say is correct then it changes literally nothing about anything so whatever yeah use words like a weirdo if you like
If you’re familiar with the subject, you can tell exactly where the author is going to go with it. I’ve been working on and teaching this material for about 20 years, and I’ve applied it against quite a diverse number of areas.
I’m not learning anything new from the book, but simply reading a well-assembled argument as to why it should become a dominant paradigm.
Or, you know, they’re commenting based on what they know, which is most than most of us in this thread, and they’re doing it now while the conversation is happening instead of waiting until they’ve finished the book, because by then everyone will have moved on.
Yes, because I know this material well enough that I could have written this book, and have written multiple papers on closely related topics as well as taught courses on this material.
I’m sorry if that seems weird but it’s what happens when you become an expert in a field, especially one as narrow as theoretical biology. I knew exactly where he was going with his argument.
It’s like when you have a twin and you can finish each other’s sandwiches.
What’s weird is claiming the book is “incredibly important” but also, the author’s thoughts on the subject are so obvious that you do not need to finish the book.
Let’s say you were an expert in epidemiological modeling, and you and a modestly sized group of your fellow researchers had been working on an approach that demonstrated what should have been done in 2020, and what a shitshow it would be if it wasn’t done. Then, of course, it wasn’t done. Then one of your fellow travelers wrote a book saying what should have been done. You know the work - you’d contributed to it yourself - but you think other people should know about it.
Theoretical biologist here. This is an incredibly important book. I just bought it a few minutes ago and so I’m only partway through the beginning, but it’s summarizing everything people from my school of thought (complex adaptive systems theory, multilevel selection models, and so on) have been arguing for two or three decades. It’s a very fast read so far (probably less so if you’re less familiar with the points the author is making), but I really hope that this book has an impact that’s reflective of the timeliness and cohesiveness (as I am reading into what the author is preparing to argue) deserves.
Yeh! Good to see the rusty machine (and self-deprecating) model fading away and being replaced by real appreciation of the true marvels that have emerged over millions of years. (Science’s mechanical models were all so … 18th century!)
(Not so familiar with biology but did enjoy hearing about the tack Lee Cronin’s taken.)
It’s still a rusty machine even if the maths that control it are a bit more complex
Math controls nothing and only models them. It is CRITICALLY important to remember that mathematical models are ONLY models, no matter how closely they match any sampled data.
Everything is math, it’s what controls gravity and cell division and protein folding - there is no god it’s all just math
Of course the model is only a model but the point is you can use the model to predict real world responses, therefore you can test millions of things and do the one which is most likely to work
I think the difference here is between your conception that reality follows a mathematical model while their conception is that mathematical models follow and try to be reflective of reality.
I think their concern is that, if one believes reality follows math, when the model fails to accurately predict something, the person with the model may wonder what’s wrong with reality. If that person believed the model follows reality they would wonder what’s wrong with the model. The latter perspective will yield better results.
It’s the difference between saying “this is how it works” vs “to the best of my knowledge this is how it works.”
That’s ridiculous, if I think that one apple plus one apple is going to result in three apples then I try it and find it’s actually two I’m not going to blame the universe I’m going to know my understanding of arithmetic is flawed.
It’s not the math of the human made model that controls the universe that would be silly. The model is the current best approximation of the actual math that defines the universe.
An accurate model allows you to predict the outcome of events, like we can predict how many apples will be in the bag. With some things it gets very complicated because there’s lots of things and various possible states but we can model that with statistics and calculous and stuff. We can even make a set of all possibile results and use that as a map to tell us if something is possible, how likely it is and what we can do to make it more or less likely - nothing the guy said was controversial, we can map cellar interactions even if that requires using complex multidimensional math (mathematics have had to get used to doing this sort of math a lot recently so I’m sure they’ll manage)
No, you’ve internalized it in the wrong way. The mathematical model comes AFTER the real world. It is not related to the real world what so ever except in correlation. Correlation is not causation. ESPECIALLY with a human-made MODEL.
If the maths actually drove ANYTHING, you wouldn’t be saying, “most likely” to work…
Yes that’s a model, I’m not saying the model magically controls reality but that the underpinning reality is math - the reason you always have two apples in a bag when you start with one and add another is because of math, the human model of that isn’t controlling it but if we want two apples in a bag and we currently only have one then we can use our model to determine how many apples we need to add into the bag.
The same is true of more complex systems, if we can accurately model the cellar interactions then we can derive solutions in the same way
That’s the thing: It’s NOT math. Math is an expression of relationships. The underpinning of reality IS NOT math. Ever. Math is a simplification. Always.
You’re using odd ways of describing things to try and win a pointless argument, even if everything you say is correct then it changes literally nothing about anything so whatever yeah use words like a weirdo if you like
Maybe finish the book before you decide?
If you’re familiar with the subject, you can tell exactly where the author is going to go with it. I’ve been working on and teaching this material for about 20 years, and I’ve applied it against quite a diverse number of areas.
I’m not learning anything new from the book, but simply reading a well-assembled argument as to why it should become a dominant paradigm.
Lol you’re saying with a chapter you don’t even need to read the rest of it? And you’re a scientist?
Or, you know, they’re commenting based on what they know, which is most than most of us in this thread, and they’re doing it now while the conversation is happening instead of waiting until they’ve finished the book, because by then everyone will have moved on.
Yes, because I know this material well enough that I could have written this book, and have written multiple papers on closely related topics as well as taught courses on this material.
I’m sorry if that seems weird but it’s what happens when you become an expert in a field, especially one as narrow as theoretical biology. I knew exactly where he was going with his argument.
It’s like when you have a twin and you can finish each other’s sandwiches.
What’s weird is claiming the book is “incredibly important” but also, the author’s thoughts on the subject are so obvious that you do not need to finish the book.
Let’s say you were an expert in epidemiological modeling, and you and a modestly sized group of your fellow researchers had been working on an approach that demonstrated what should have been done in 2020, and what a shitshow it would be if it wasn’t done. Then, of course, it wasn’t done. Then one of your fellow travelers wrote a book saying what should have been done. You know the work - you’d contributed to it yourself - but you think other people should know about it.
Would you consider that book “very important?”
IDK, I only read the first line of your comment
Username half checks out.