• interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    9 months ago

    The big instances are bad enough but big communities are absolute killer of decentralisation

    When you go to /c/books on your server, you don’t see an agglomeration of all /c/books on all servers of the fediverse. You only see that server’s /c/books, if it even has one.

    This is a fatal flaw of lemmy which concentrates power enormously into the hands of the owners.

    The default view should be all /c/books on all federated servers, with an easy way to filter only local posts.

    Lemmy will turn into reddit if this is not quickly rectified.

      • interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        9 months ago

        What point ?

        The point of becoming a moderator that decide what everyone can and can’t say ?

        The point of “making another reddit but I’m /u/spez” ?

        • willya@lemmyf.uk
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          edit-2
          9 months ago

          The point of me having my own control over my instance. The bad moderator thing will always be a problem.

          • interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            0
            ·
            9 months ago

            I don’t see how agglomerating vuew of all same name communities for the user impact you as a server owner ?

            You still have totalitarian control over everything happening on your server.

            You can still

            Delete all post and comments

            Change any text in any post or comment even if made by other users and without their notice

            Ban any user

            Ban any community

            Even ban all users and all communities (whilte only model)

            • willya@lemmyf.uk
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              0
              ·
              9 months ago

              I must’ve read your comment wrong. Sounds like you just want a multi Reddit type feature? I agree that that should be implemented some apps already done it. I don’t agree that the same word community should be lumped together universally and automatically.

              • interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                0
                ·
                9 months ago

                No multireddit cannot solve this problem.

                They are not a default agglomeration view so they will never make a difference as most users never change their defaults.

                Covered in more details here

                https://lemmy.ml/comment/7734804

                A community cannot escape the stranglehold of moderators with a multireddit, because most users will simply not have it the backup community setup in their multireddit. They will never see dissenters posting in the backuos. And that makes multireddit largely useless

                  • interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    0
                    ·
                    9 months ago

                    It’s an hypothetical community, so they’re hypothetical moderators/owners. I’m not sure how to respond to “who are they”.

                    They’re some bad hombrés…

    • Blaze@discuss.online
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      9 months ago

      When you go to /c/books on your server, you don’t see an agglomeration of all /c/books on all servers of the fediverse. You only see that server’s /c/books, if it even has one.

      What prevents from visiting /c/books@anotherserver?

      Genuinely asking, because this is one of the core concepts of Lemmy and federation

      • Luden [comrade/them]@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        edit-2
        9 months ago

        I’ll say this is really clunky to do and often means being redirected to that instances site where you are no longer logged in. Mobile apps mostly solve this themselves, but its sometimes a pain on desktop. I’d like the ability to somehow group similar communities, but I’m fine if its like Multireddits or playlists on the user end.

      • interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        9 months ago

        I already posted to anotherserver/c/books and no one ever saw it.

        Posting anywhere but biggestinstance/c/biggestcommunity is functionally the same as not posting at all.

        And of course, the owners of biggestinstance/c/biggestcommunity believe in everything you don’t believe in and they really don’t like you in particular.

        Welcome to new reddit, same as old reddit

        • Blaze@discuss.online
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          9 months ago

          I already posted to anotherserver/c/books and no one ever saw it.

          Did you promote that community on !newcommunities@lemmy.world and other promotion communities? Did you actively post on your new community, to attract users to your new one?

          I’m going to take two examples I personally had

          I guess that shows that community takeover is possible, and does not need additional tools, just some time and dedication.

    • TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      9 months ago

      I agree, I want to echo this. This needs to be rectified. Same communities across servers should be possible to engage with in a metacommunity format. This will be a game changer for Lemmy.

      • interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        9 months ago

        This isn’t the first time I have proposed this, but the pushback leads me to believe the owners do not want to relinquish power to the users. Lemmy it seems, is a community for owners. The interests of instance owners and their delegates come first.

        I think we will need the digg & reddit story to play out all over again so that in 10-15 years the next exodus out of lemmy might lead us somewhere we can actually be free.

        • TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          9 months ago

          This is not that big of a problem. A third party can always make a bootleg version of metacommunity post viewer. Lemmy can already view posts across all federated instances using “All” tab, so all that would be needed is some method of meta labelling of same (not similar) communities across instances and to be able to view unified communities under such tags, and this tagging be done appropriately by all instances’ admins in synchronisation, ignoring their personal and ideological differences.

        • nutomic@lemmy.mlM
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          9 months ago

          This isn’t the first time I have proposed this, but the pushback leads me to believe the owners do not want to relinquish power to the users. Lemmy it seems, is a community for owners. The interests of instance owners and their delegates come first.

          That is true because admins pay for the servers and are legally responsible for the content they host. However anyone can quite easily become an admin, the hosting cost for a single user instance is very low.

    • sunaurus@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      9 months ago

      I kind of get where you’re coming from, but to me it sounds like you’re looking for a different experience than what Lemmy is designed for. It seems you are more interested in aggergating all posts about specific topics (like “books”), and strongly limiting the effect of moderation (as nobody would have final say about how to moderate an entire topic). If I correctly understood the experience you’re interested in, then for sure the design of Lemmy will not match that.

      I don’t think it’s fair to describe this as a fatal flaw, though. Lemmy is not built around the idea of generic, “ownerless” topics, instead, it’s built around communities with clear owners. We have decentralization at the admin and infrastructure level (as in, a single admin does not control the entire network), but this does not really mean we also need to have it at individual community level.

      IMO it’s totally fine that different people create different communities with extremely similar purposes. The entire internet as a whole also works like this - the internet itself is decentralized, but at the same time people can create different websites with very similar purposes (and even domains!), and it works out fine. For example, it’s totally possible for there to exist a news.com, news.co.uk, news.ee, news.fi, etc. Imagine if whenever you navigated to news.fi with your browser, it would also automatically insert content from all the other news websites of all possible domains - it doesn’t really seem like a useful feature, but that’s kind of analogous to what you’re suggesting for Lemmy at the moment.

      • interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        9 months ago

        Thst makes lemmy , a reddit with many /u/spez , but in practice it will end up like the actual internet of today, where only 5-10 sites control everything.

        This process is already far along on lemmy, already very centralized and all the incentives are in place to make it even more centralized.

        I expect the settlement of the defederation war, will create 2-3 cliques of the largest servers that each silence the rest of the lemmyverse on their property.

        Give it a little time and they’ll probably make themselves fully private cliques.

    • Jumuta@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      9 months ago

      maybe communities should be able to flag that they’re the same community as one on another server, and if they mutually do so be combined into one metacommunity that people can search for

      • interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        9 months ago

        If it requires the owner’s consent, it defeats the purposeof my proposal.

        It is expressly to disempower the owners in favour of the users.