Afaik this happened with every single instance of a communist country. Communism seems like a pretty good idea on the surface, but then why does it always become autocratic?
I don’t think that is exclusive to communism. I rather assume that this has more to do with how the government is structured. Long-running politicians tend to being more open to corruption.
I can easily see Trump going the same way. He has assembled enough power within the system to break it from within like most dictators did.
OP, do you have any knowledge about the CIA in the United States having involvement in “every single instance” you speak of?
Can you also please name those instances to better inform this conversation?
Instead of being condescending, how about you just go ahead and contribute that information yourself? Sheesh
What hierarchical structure exists in any type of system that doesn’t breed corruption?
“Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
There’s a lot of confusion in these comments regarding Marxist theory, presumably from people who haven’t actually engaged with the source material, so I want to clarify something I see repeated frequently in this thread with little pushback. The Marxist theory of the State is not the same as the Anarchist, nor the liberal. Marx defined the State as a tool of class oppression.
The reason I state this is because there’s a confused notion that Marxists think there should be
- An unaccountable Vanguard
- The Vanguard does stuff. At a certain arbitrary point the Vanguard dissolves and society embraces full horizontalism
I’ll address these in order. First, the Vanguard is in no-way meant to be unaccountable, nor a small group of elites, but the most politically active, practiced, and experienced among the proletariat elected by the rest of the proletariat. The concept of the “Mass Line” is crucial to Marxist theory, that is, the insepperability of the Vanguard from the masses.
Secondly, the basis for Marxian Communism is baaed on the developmental trends of Capitalism. Markets start highly decentralized, but gradually the better Capitalists outcompete and grow, and as they grow they must develop new methods of accounting and planning. Capital concentrates in fewer and fewer hands, yet socialization increases as these conglomerations begin to reach monstrous heights and require incredibly complex planning. The development of such methods and tools is the real, scientific foundation of Public Ownership and Central Planning.
Continuing, once the Proletariat takes control and creates a Proletarian State, the Proletariat, the more experienced among them the Vanguard, gradually wrests from the bourgeoisie their Capital with respect to that industries and sectors that have sufficiently developed. This process continues until all Capital has been folded into the Public Sector, at which point laws meant for restraining the bourgeoisie begin to become superfluous and “die out.” The Vanguard doesn’t “dissolve” or “cede power,” but itself as a concept also dies out, as over time new methods of planning and infrastructure make its role more superfluous. Classes in general are abolished once all property is in the Public Sector, and as such the State no longer exists either, as there isn’t a class to oppress.
This is why Marxists say the State “withers away.” It isn’t about demolishing itself, but that Marx and Engels had a particular vision of what the State even is, and why they said it could not be abolished overnight.
Hope that helped! As a side note, asking this on Lemmy.world, an anti-Marxist instance, is only ever going to get you answers biased in that direction. I suggest asking on other instances as well to get a more complete view.
Sounds sensible from an economics perspective but what about violence? How can state wither away when there needs to be control of violence?
From what I understand the people individually would be responsible for helping each other which is why there’s a strong emphasis on an “armed proletariat.” An example, I believe from State and Revolution, was that of a common person helping someone who was being mugged. We’d all have a responsibility to help each other.
Not entirely sure on their concept of military protection though. Except for lenin they didn’t really live in an age of crazy military capabilities so it was always man vs man not man vs b52 bombers.
Lemmy.world, an anti-Marxist instance
I wouldn’t call Lemmy.world anti-Marxist. I would say there has definitely been some knee-jerk to the heavy-handed moderation of Lemmy.ml, but being opposed to the more extreme methods of Lemmy.ml doesn’t mean opposition to Marxism in concept. It means you’ll get a broader set of responses since criticism won’t get deleted by the mods/admins, but there are still plenty of leftists on Lemmy.world.
Similar to how opposing Stalinism doesn’t mean one opposes Marxism, you know?
Similar to how opposing Stalinism doesn’t mean one opposes Marxism, you know?
What do you think ‘Stalinism’ is, besides “Marxism but bad” as framed by people who are already staunchly anti-marxist?
What do you think ‘Stalinism’ is, besides “Marxism but bad” as framed by people who are already staunchly anti-marxist?
I’ve been told by people who hold communist ideals that there’s a difference between Marxism and the brutal totalitarian implementation that was Stalinism in practice. People far more knowledgeable than I am have made this distinction better than I can articulate.
Would you argue there isn’t a distinction?
Marxism isn’t a religion, it’s a social and political science. It’s not a list of rules about what you’re supposed to do, it’s a method of understanding social and historical forces. The socialist revolution was supposed to happen in Germany according to Marx. When the conditions of the world change the people who are alive then are the ones who have to interpret and react to them. So Stalin was doing Marxism in the context of the 1930’s soviet union.
Lemmy.world defederated from the largest explicitly Marxist aligned instances, their thread going over why spells out pretty clearly that opposition to liberalism was the key determining factor in doing so. Lemmy.ml isn’t even a Marxist instance, only admin’d and moderated by Marxists, yet is the instance with undeniably the most conflict with Lemmy.world currently among their federated instances. Moreover, many lemmy.world mods have expressed negative opinions towards Marxism directly, here’s an example.
Lemmy.world is a liberal instance, is admin’d and moderated largely as such, and has taken deliberate measures against Marxism and Marxists. I believe it’s fair to consider Lemmy.world to overall be anti-Marxist. Does that mean no users share Marxist sympathies? No, of course not, but overall the bias is clear.
Just my 2 cents.
I’d agree the MLs aren’t Marxist. I don’t think a Marxist would unironically stan China Russia and north Korea.
On what grounds do you say Marxist-Leninists aren’t Marxists? The world over, the vast majority of Marxists fall under the umbrella of Marxism-Leninism.
Well, first of all, Lenin betrayed the revolution and implemented a new form of Feudalism, not communism. His party lost the 1917 election, and he threw a hissy fit that launched a civil war.
All because he thought that his way was best, so he created a totalitarian dictatorship. And then handed it over to Stalin, who made everything worse.
Marx himself said that communism needed to rise out of capitalist democracy. It cannot rise out of a dictatorship, because dictators never voluntarily give up power.
This is extremely wrong on several accounts, to the point of absurdity in several parts.
First, Lenin did not “betray the revolution.” Lenin and the Bolsheviks carried out the revolution. Had they not had the real support of the working class via the Soviet system implemented prior to the establishment of the USSR, they could not have established Socialism to begin with.
Secondly, Lenin did not “implement a new form of feudalism.” This is utterly divorced from reality. Feudalism is characterized by agrarian peasantry that live on land owned by a feudal lord, till the land, pay rent to said lord, and manufacture for themselves the bulk of their consumption. The Soviet model was that of a Soviet Republic, characterized by Public Ownership and Central Planning, both of which are key aspects of Marxism as conceived by Marx himself, not Lenin.
Third, the election in the liberal bourgeois government. Russia in 1917 had 2 governments, the Soviet Government supported by the Workers and Peasants, and the Provisional Government supported by the Bourgeoisie and Petite Bourgeoisie. The Socialist Revolutionaries won the election in the Constituent Assembly for the bourgeois government, however faith in the bourgeois government was already gone! The Soviet Government toppled the Provisional Government, solidifying itself as the only legitimate government. Lenin did not throw a “hissy fit,” the point of the Constituent Assembly was to show just how detached from the will of the Working Class the bourgeois government was.
Fourth, the notion of the USSR as a “totalitarian dictatorship.” This is false on both accounts. The Soviet Democratic model is well documented, such as by Pat Sloan in his book Soviet Democracy. The Soviet Republic extended democracy to economic production, and was a dramatic improvement for workers over the Tsarist regime and the bourgeois Provisional Government. The USSR was also not a dictatorship, the General Secretary was not a position of absolute control, even the CIA didn’t believe it to be.
Fifth, Marx himself. This is perhaps your most absurd claim. Marx never once said Communism “rises from Capitist Democracy.” Marx was both entirely revolutionary, believing reforming Capitalist society without revolution to be impossible, and similarly did not even believe Capitalism was required for said Communist revolution to take place. Marx believed Markets have a tendency to centralize, laying the foundations for Public Ownership and Central Planning. Even in a Socialist state, markets can and will exist. From Marx:
The essential condition for the existence, and for the sway of the bourgeois class, is the formation and augmentation of capital; the condition for capital is wage-labour. Wage-labour rests exclusively on competition between the labourers. The advance of industry, whose involuntary promoter is the bourgeoisie, replaces the isolation of the labourers, due to competition, by their revolutionary combination, due to association. The development of Modern Industry, therefore, cuts from under its feet the very foundation on which the bourgeoisie produces and appropriates products. What the bourgeoisie, therefore, produces, above all, are its own grave-diggers. Its fall and the victory of the proletariat are equally inevitable.
Marx believed Capitalism makes Communist revolution inevitable by its own mechanisms, but not that Capitalism is required to perform said revolution! We see with real, practical experience that the Proletariat is the true revolutionary class, but even in countries where the Proletariat make up a minority of the population as compared to the peasantry revolution is still possible. Markets cannot be abolished overnight, but that doesn’t mean it is not a Socialist system.
I seriously recommend you read theory, or revisit it if you’re just rusty. If you want help, I made an introductory Marxist reading list, and I’d love feedback.
Wow, the alternate reality you live in must not be littered with millions of bodies of the people Lenin and Stalin murdered.
They were both monsters and, by every single definition, totalitarian dictators. But you keep on worshiping them
You can’t just claim ownership of all communism and claim everyone falls under the ML umbrella, especially when MLs support dictatorial regimes that are antithetical to communism.
I am not “claiming ownership of all Communism,” I am accurately stating that Marxism-Leninism is by far the most common form of Marxism, as it is the basis for the vast majority of AES states past and present. It has real, practical foundations and as such has continued popularity internationally. This is less true in the West, where AES states are violently combatted daily.
I guess there’s a disconnect on what Marx actually thought and what they believe then, as op has pointed out. And the whole Russia China north Korea thing.
You can really ask the same question about capitalist societies. Why is there such oppression? Why is there a group that can do anything and a group that cannot? Regardless of your political system, human behavior is the same and it usually involves insecure ape-like people who want power for power’s sake. Communism, just like every political system ever created, trends towards this sort of behavior.
As someone else said, desperation will cause people to move towards authoritarian thought, be that the extreme right (fascism) or the extreme left (communism).
Short answer: Power abhors a vacuum. Natural hierarchies develop out of good old tribalism rather fast even with frameworks in place to avoid them.
Because of bad ideology. States, classes, inequalities, and hierarchies are good and desirable. Try to build a system ignorant of the primary components and then wonder why it always fails.
And this right here is fascist ideology
No, this is representative democracy.
Chiapas doesn’t seem to be failing. Going on 30 years now. Rojava isn’t failing either, due to it’s system, but rather being attacked on the regular by imperialist nations like Russia and the US.
Because the Soviet Union was autocratic and communist/socialist countries had to choose between cosying up to them and being destroyed by the CIA.
Scratch a Bad and America bleeds
It’s been the most powerful country in the world since my grandparents were kids I don’t know what else you expect. Also I did say that the Soviet Union was autocratic.
It’s the opportunist problem. We see this throughout rebellions in history, not just when communist countries are made. Basically, anytime conditions are bad enough for the people to demand change it’s really easy for someone to trade on their ignorance. They can push policies that sound like they’ll help but really consolidate power. And if anyone speaks up, they’re an enemy of the people.
For a non Communist example of this in modern history check out the French Revolution.
The Paris Commune is a great example of the class war being brutally engaged by the bourgeois.
Check USA right now.
Yup. And I’ve spent the last decade and a half telling people the working class isn’t going to take it anymore.
What tends to emerge from the ashes of war and empire.
The same threat that democracy faces, it’s vulnerable to charismatic people who become entrenched and draconian. I’m not convinced it can ever work without some competing force that resists the consolidation of power, such as highly educated and politically involved populace.
Communism probably works at smaller scales but for larger populations it would only be feasible when the leadership is benevolent. A robot administrator would be an interesting experiment.
This is strongly supported by Wengrow and Graeber’s “The Dawn Of Everything”, though I think they would say that in the case of state communism, it’s bureaucratic power/control of information, rather than charismatic power. I think charisma is more relevant in fascist dictatorships (which I guess some communist systems evolve into).
Bureaucratic systems world based on control of information and decision making. If there are insufficient mechanisms for maintaining checks on power accumulation, those systems can be abused by psychopaths and used to accumulate power. The same applies to capitalist structures.
3 explanations, in order from what I believe most likely to least:
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It could be selection bias. All communist nations originated from dictatorships, and as democracy isn’t a key part of communism, any democratic ideas get kicked to the side. It may require a dictatorship in the first place for a communist revolution to occur, as democracy may lead to people feeling content enough with the system that they may not feel it needs fundamental change.
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The inevitable need for concentration of power in the hands of a few. Assume that the powerful will always try to concentrate power in their own hands one way or another. Capitalist societies use wealth (a.k.a. purchasing power) to replace the concentration of political power that a dictator would enjoy. As communist societies lack such a mechanism, the powers-that-be can only use political power to force their own superiority.
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The centralization of economics leads to concentration of economic power that can be used effectively to buy loyalty from would-be challengers to a dictator’s power.
Democracy isn’t a core requirement of capitalism either. Saudi Arabia is very capitalist and they’re a Monarchy.
It’s far more likely to just be that communism was the new flavor for a while and they suffered the same fate as most rebellions. When the guard rails, (whatever they are), come down, then the bad guys will try to take advantage.
democracy is actually key to communist philosophy, dictators simply conveniently ignored that
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“Our” becomes “my”
Why? I’m not clear, but power corrupts regardless of the political structure surrounding it (e.g. look at pretty much any HOA).
I think because true communism never existed. All the previous attempts were flawed, people got corrupted, misused their power and it’s difficult to overcome human nature. It might work in theory (or not). But so far the attempts weren’t that many and they were all flawed for different reasons.
weren’t that many
It’s a pretty long list (1)
