- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
Privacy advocates got access to Locate X, a phone tracking tool which multiple U.S. agencies have bought access to, and showed me and other journalists exactly what it was capable of. Tracking a phone from one state to another to an abortion clinic. Multiple places of worship. A school. Following a likely juror to a residence. And all of this tracking is possible without a warrant, and instead just a few clicks of a mouse.
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It drives me nuts how our economic system is making not having a cell phone increasingly difficult. Many necessary things won’t even work on a tablet. The smartphone is the most amazing futuristic device I dreamed about that has evolved into a distopian nightmare.
It drives me nuts how our economic system is making not having a cell phone increasingly difficult.
that’s by design. why you do you think the US government allows corporate interests to take such a high position above American citizens? it’s not just only because of corruption, it’s because one hand washes the other.
The smartphone is the most amazing futuristic device I dreamed about that has evolved into a distopian nightmare.
like all technology, it can be used in ways that you cannot even imagine.
instead of blocking advertising data, we should embrace it IMO.
imagine a world where users shove so much information at these tools that they can’t even tell what’s real or not. camouflage works better when everyone participates.
Run a headless browser that does random searches at random times across different social media and search engines and have it click random ads.
This was part of the fictional operating system in the book Little Brother. I think it inspired similar features in a particular real life Linux build too
you can essentially already do this with TrackMeNot and AdNauseam
ML breaks this defense
does it though? if everyone is sharing their advertising data under the covers no amount of ML could correct it.
think of it like a tor network for advertisement tracking.
you’re going to Walmart, I’m going to Target. but according to our phones, I’m at Walmart and you’re at Target. now scale it up to thousands or even millions of users sharing their advertising trackers.
instead of blocking advertising data, we should embrace it IMO.
imagine a world where users shove so much information at these tools that they can’t even tell what’s real or not. camouflage works better when everyone participates.
There’s an ad blocker that does exactly this. Called Ad Nauseam. Chrome blocked it from their store super fast, then blocked it from being installed in Chrome from 3rd party sites, then blocked known versions of it from being manually installed in developer mode. I used to run it set to a low percentage - if I “clicked” every ad they’d know to throw my data out, but if I click say 3% of them…
that’s by design.
See also: automobiles. Automobiles and smartphones certainly have strong cases for how utilitarian they are. They are both genuinely very useful.
But the expectation that everyone has one, along with them becoming practically a requirement for most people, has turned them into a dependency and a means of control. Some people can manage to forgo them, but you almost have to build your life around doing so.
It is only dystopian because we have not taken back the power to control our devices. We of course need some serious privacy laws to allow this to happen. Right now is the defining moment for the 21st century. Will we take control of our technology or be enslaved by it?
Most of the population is choosing be enslaved by it. Buckle up.
I don’t see smartphones being better unless they are completely different. Since its basically iphone and an iphone mimic and its just the way the whole ecosystems are built. Like you can install a free smartphone os but you will not be able to do things with it at the same level as someone without one as far as corps and stuff.
The smartphone has effectively turned into a leash.
Article link not requiring you to sign up: https://archive.ph/Th1Sq
ty 🙏🙏🙏
Who else are they selling this too?
Whoever has money I suppose. Makes me wonder if there are laws regulating this sort or tech.
So why abortion clinics in the title if it can track people anywhere? Do they think abortion clinics are the most popular destination for the majority of people? Why not put pizza joint im the title? Or sex club? Bath house? Dairy farm?
You could always read the article…
Yeah, I could, but it’s a perfectly valid line of conversation to critique a post’s title.
There’s a reason we have the saying, “Always judge a book by its cover, and judge a response by it’s grammar”
Yeah, I could, but it’s a perfectly valid line of conversation to critique a post’s title.
I don’t think laziness is a valid line of criticism. I also find it strange to critique a title separate from its intended context.
we have the saying, “Always judge a book by its cover, and judge a response by it’s grammar”
I don’t think that’s a very common idiom. It seems to imply that pedantry is more important than substance.
It seems to imply that pedantry is more important than substance.
It’s certainly more common; I mean, we’re on a social media platform that incentivises it.
For the vast majority of people DooM scrolling these days, they want a quick dopamine hit. And influencers want those upvotes in quantity, not quality.
Knowing that the defacto message of a given post is its headline, we need to have a conversation about proper standards and dark patterns.
Click baiting isn’t the kind of baiting for which I came to the internet, and it doesn’t keep me coming again, so why put up with it?
Lol, you can’t confirm it’s click bait unless you read the article…
None of your critiques are valid, as the substance of the article is congruent with the messaging in the title.
You’re just being lazy.
I’m not just being lazy; I’m providing justification for my laziness. We should be calling out clickbaiters and other manipulators, not taking them as part and parcel to online discourse
But your “justification” is based on feels…
The article goes into great detail supporting the substance of the title, meaning it’s not click bait or manipulation.
You are the one attempting to manipulate people by claiming that the title is something it’s not.
Because right now’s political climate is about how abortion is being billed en masse as murder, and people are having to go to other states to get abortions (even for miscarriages), so the states that bill abortion as murder want to be able to prosecute the women. So there are a lot of fears that states will be tracking women through tools like this, and it turns out the fearful were correct.
All they gonna do is chase their women away. They’re welcome in sunny Canada
It’s American focused and abortion is at the forefront of their christofascist-liberal culturwar.
You really wanna piss people off, tell them their bosses are using it to see if they’re actually going into the office or not
Hard to connect these dots for most “normal” folks without feeling like a conspiracy nut. Appreciate this journalism.
Apple and Google can fix the problem. Apps are required to ask for permission to access location information. Most of the time, it’s for tracking and analytics, not anything related to the app’s functionality. That’s the data that is leaking to these data brokers.
In those cases, if asked, user can say no, but apps keep haranguing you until you capitulate.
Instead, the OS could add a button that says: “Yes, but randomize.” After that, location data is returned as normal, but from totally random locations nearby. They could even spoof the data clustering algorithms and just pick some rando location and keep showing returns to them, or just trade the data from one random phone for another every N days.
You do this enough and the data will become polluted enough to become useless.
Tower dats i guess is harder to get as it requires a warrant?
Unless you become a phone company or use a StingRay
Or you just have some money to buy the data from a data broker that phone company sell your data to already.
Well i meant why wouldn’t telco sell or provide it to the feds?
If they get a warrant, sure. Sell it I dunno. There’s more legal cases about cell tower data simply because it’s some form of technology courts have at least made an effort to understand at some point.
Well we know telco sells your traffic data as ISP as “anonymized” i dont see how they are not doing this with tower data but i am not familair with caseaw on the issue.
So maybe there is aome legal bar to that…
Amazing how warrant got turned into a joke in modern age tho all within last 30 years.
Apple and Google want to sell that data, they’re not going to help you obscure it.
I don’t think this would be technically useful to prevent exploitation of location data. The handset always has to identify to a tower using the SIM card, which is going to identify the phone and its user. Your cellular service provider can still sell this information to data brokers.
With that said, I would love the option to lie about my location to apps that have no business knowing it.
You have the option to spoof/fake/mock it manually with an app. This one, it seems, even has some available add-ons for mocking UnifiedNlp data and more…)
Mock my GPS (mock the GPS and Network location providers) https://f-droid.org/packages/com.github.warren_bank.mock_location/
Mock my GPS UnifiedNlp Backend (mock the GPS and Network location providers) https://f-droid.org/packages/com.github.warren_bank.mock_location.service.microg_nlp_backend/
Mock Silently (mock the GPS and Network location providers) https://f-droid.org/packages/com.github.warren_bank.mock_location.silently/
Possibly you’ll have to enable dev options and set the location spoofing app in there. At least, I remember seeing the option in there, but that was years ago.
This changes location reported to applications by the OS. It doesn’t change that your signal is coming from a direction and distance as known by the tower tracking the phone. MIMO and other beamforming techniques use this data to boost signal, but it is also collected for monitoring.
How is this not a warrantless search?
It is, but the USA hasn’t cared since Snowden.
UNDERTALE???!?!?!??11
That’s the issue with the patriot act, they’ve been allowed to do warrantless searches for a long time now.
FISA court if they run into any friction
Because a carrier’s data on you is not your person or belongings. The companies holding this data are selling access to it, so it’s not being searched, it’s being offered.
In other words, the same reason as why they don’t need a search warrant if there’s a breaking and the business across the street volunteers their security camera footage, even if you’re on that footage.
Courts have actually said that looking back at someone’s location data counts as a search and requires a warrant. There’s currently a lawsuit recently filed by the institute for justice aledging that the use of flock safety license plate readers is unconstitutional because it’s a warrantless search.
The EFF have more information about location data brokers. Well worth a read.
God I hate data brokers. Rats! All of them, vermin contributing nothing of value to society.
Better to leave your phone at home (or better, in the pocket of someone who lives in your house and takes the same daily path as you do) if you are doing something that’s currently illegal. Or in any situation where you are doing something legal that the cops are likely to break up.
The juror going home thing is terrifying but I don’t think the government would be after you for fulfilling your civic duty.
a device that constantly connects to antennas all over the place, is used to track your location.
who would have thought?
if you dont wanna get tracked - dont bring your phone.
Meanwhile when I turn off Bluetooth on my iPhone it says “for the next y hours” and there’s no option to turn it off permanently.
Don’t buy Apple?
Yeah, IOS and stock android are not acceptable if you care about this stuff
On graphene my bluetooth and wifi turn themselves OFF if I haven’t been connected for a few minutes
and there’s no option to turn it off permanently.
Did you actually try looking this up. Turn it off in settings and it’s off forever until you turn it back on.
Or, you know, let the gov work for you, not against you, & fully expect people to get jailed if they thank you.
It’s a matter of perspective what the minimum standard should be.
Especially when a personal device like a phone is basically necessary for a normal life and even public services.
Is a phone a basic necess[ity] for a normal life?
Unfortunately yes, and I would go even a step further and say a smart phone is a basic necessity. More and more companies and even government services are operating on the assumption that everyone has a smart phone. I have encountered various services where if a person didn’t have a smart phone they literally can’t use it. I even have personal experience with it.
My landlord uses a company for payments that can only be interacted with via an app on a smart phone. There is no web portal option. There is no option to mail a check. There is no option to setup a direct bank transfer. I was essentially strong armed into it since the place itself was (and still is) better than almost anything else I saw and is a reasonable price.
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Are we talking about me specifically or people in general? I’ll assume general as I was just relaying a personal anecdote to show that my point/thesis wasn’t just a hypothetical as I do know how to get around it in my specific case.
In the general context, that’s not a great solution for most people as it is beyond their skill or time set. For the most disadvantaged people just having the ability to have a phone at all and a place to reliably charge it is an issue. There is also the issue is practicality. When I take public transit where I live, the app pulls up a QR code on my phone they gets scanned. I’m not even sure I could fit my laptop screen into the space to scan the QR code if I was emulating Android.
So I guess my thesis here is that systems should be made more accessible and inclusive rather than requiring those in the minority to either have to put more effort in using a workaround to reach functional parity or end up left out all together.
I have encountered various services
For example, some of these services would be… ?
Gov agencies require 2 factor to a cell phone. Land lines dont work and VoIP lines with texting also don’t work. The only option is to use snail mail and have sensitive data sent via post office
If I were stuck in that position, then I would not hesitate to choose the postage method. That being an option does not comport with the assertion “if a person didn’t have a smart phone they literally can’t use it”.
I respect your stubbornness in that regard, but understand that in such a situation you’re putting yourself in a position of significant friction, possibly costing yourself income, promotions etc.
I learned very quickly by playing the game by the unofficial rules and expectations things are way easier and my quality of life is much improved. Stubbornness won’t change the system, but it will certainly annoy people and slow down your access to life, liberty and the person of happiness. If that’s a trade off you’re willing to make so be it, but personally I’d rather enjoy my life than die on hills that very few people so much as glance at.
Considering nearly everything requires a phone number and also rejects VoIP numbers? Yes. A phone is required now to participate in society.
You and I must live in two different societies then. I work with at least two other individuals who also don’t have a cell phone (not just smart phone, but any cellular device), one of whom is also a millennial. My SIP number has never had any issues with online service auth.
We absolutely do the society I live in even the homeless have cell phones and I haven’t ran into anyone without one in decades
To be fair, I don’t go around in public telling everyone “I don’t have a cell phone btw”. So I suppose we are easy to miss.
Yes Boomer
I’m almost 50 myself, come on
Millennial, actually
Press X to doubt
A millennial not having a cell phone is such an unimaginable concept?
For whatever it’s worth, I do use SIP software telephony in order to make calls and receive texts, so in that way I do technically have a “phone”. But what I’m fundamentally rejecting here is the notion that I must be compelled to carry around a device in my pocket infested with proprietary malware.
You can answer this yourself. Get rid of your phone and see. If you beleive it’s not a necessity, don’t say “yeah I could do these alternative things to get by”. Actually do it. I hope you’re not job-shopping
The above being a rhetorical question, I just wanted to take a temperature of the room.
I have lived without a phone pretty much all my adult life. The experiment for me would be to get a phone and see what changes. In that way, I have answered it for myself and the answer is a clear “you don’t need a phone”.
Yes, the impact on quality of life is just so significant that it’s a handicap to normal daily lives.
Yes, imho, and increasingly so.
In an environment where the vast majority has one people act like everyone has one (eg restaurants having qr links to menus).Even EU ruled as much (eg my company phone is my own personal device regardless of ownership & my privacy is protected differently than eg my work PC or laptop).
And even if this wasn’t the case, why would you need to opt out of having a mobile phone just to get basic privacy?
Wouldn’t just keeping your phone in a metal box prevent it from communicating with anything? Keep your phone in a metal box and only take it out when you need it. Only take it out in a location that isn’t sensitive. Or hell, just make a little sleeve out of aluminum foil. Literally just wrapping your phone in aluminum foil should prevent it from connecting to anything. A tinfoil hat won’t serve as an effective Faraday cage for your brain, but fully wrapping your phone in aluminum foil should do the job. Even better, as it’s a phone, such a foil sleeve should be quite testable. Build it, put your phone in it, and try texting and calling it. If surrounded fully by a conductive material, the phone should be completely incapable of sending or receiving signals.
You could also just turn it off.
You sure it’s still not phoning home? How do you know “off” is really “off” anymore with a modern phone? It’s not like an old flip phone that you can just pop the battery out. Sure it sounds paranoid, but we’re literally talking about something that used to be the realm of crackpots and cranks - “the government is tracking all of us 24/7!” Well, it seems that’s actually literally the case now.
Yes. When your phone is off, it is off.
If you’re paranoid you can buy a faraday bag.
The iPhone remote locator function still works when the phone is powered off. It doesn’t work when the battery is completely dead, but it does work when the phone is supposedly “powered off.” This is irrefutable proof that iPhones at least retain some of their functions even when you’ve “turned them off.”
This is where paranoia comes into play. That’s Apple’s information. Not anyone else’s. If you believe Apple is selling it to this company and ignoring the phone setting that enables it then use the faraday bag.
But this company is not getting that information directly. It gets your information from cell tower pings at best, and social media scraping at worst.
I don’t want to encourage paranoia here but “off” does not mean “off”. Modern phones are almost never actually “powered down”. If you’re paranoid, turning your phone off is not enough. Leave it behind.
(Also a gap in your phone’s location history can also be used against you, fwiw.)
There has to be some way that we could have created the architecture to do everything a phone does without letting a user be triangulated easily.
I know there is no incentive to do that, but it amazes me how far ahead the security of the web is compared to phone tech.
Like maybe if phones could authenticate without broadcasting a unique identifier. And maybe they could open a vpn style encrypted tunnel and perform their auth over that tunnel.
Idk, I know nothing about phones, but it has to be possible.
Or we could get rights protecting us from this. Especially considering that that’s a reasonable interpretation of the fourth amendment and the ninth amendment.
We already have rights protecting us from this. They aren’t being enforced.
If you don’t want to be tracked illegally, don’t bring your phone.
If you don’t want any to be tracked legally, write/call/tweet/visit your representatives.
Also just write your Supreme Court and ask them how this isn’t a flagrant violation of the intent of the fourth amendment. Seriously the founding fathers would be asking what the fuck about this. They weren’t good people but they would’ve been privacy nuts.
The US Supreme Court has had an antagonistic relationship to the forth amd fifth amendments to the Constitution of the United States since before I was a kid in the 1970s since they often interfered with efforts to round up nonwhites. But after the 9/11 attacks and the PATRIOT ACT, SCOTUS has been shredding both amendments with carve-out exceptions.
Then Law Enforcement uses tech without revealing it in court, often lying ( parallel reconstruction ) to conceal questionable use, and the courts give them the benefit of the doubt.
if you’re talking about the supreme court, as in the SCOTUS, they’re long past pretending they give the slightest fuck about the bill of rights.
“The fourth amendment means what we say it means” – SCOTUS, probably.
Oh absolutely but it annoys them when they’re called out about it
Holy shit.
Time for an alternative means of communication
Start tracking politician phones. Oh look who paid a visit to the lobbyist house this week! That shit will get shut down real quick.
I sure wouldn’t vote for someone who met with lobbyists.
Do you?
All politicians meet with lobbyists. It’s hard to get a handle on the needs of the nation (or state, or so on), and lobbying is how people inform their representatives of that need. Now whether those lobbyists are scumbags or saints, that’s a different question.
If you don’t want to be tracked illegally, don’t bring your phone.
If you don’t want any to be tracked legally, write/call/tweet/visit your representatives.
edit: responded to the wrong comment
If you don’t want any to be tracked legally, write/call/tweet/visit your representatives.
And donate to the EFF if you have the means because they can and have and will likely continue to lobby on average internet users behalf!
Ah yes, democracy is a healthy and fully functioning institution.
You just got confused who’s sponsoring it, that’s understandable.
What else would you suggest to do about it?
Throw it down and bring real democracy like in Switzerland
Or throw it down and bring anarchism
None of these are realistic, so…
Lol next story over is this https://infosec.pub/post/19174603
This is not new and it has previously been used against anti-abortion activists, tracking locations and even being used to record religious confessions. People on both sides of the abortion issue can oppose this type of monitoring.
This is nothing new. Did we already forget about the Snowden leaks?
The leaks that 2% of the population got very excited about for a while, but try not to think much about? The leaks judged by many on the reputation of an obscure man living in Russia? Those leaks?
I trust my government and not things only nerds understand. Also they sound weird and made up and very scary ( said most of the people)
Average people were only “thinking” about it for as long as it remained in the news cycle. Once the new cycle moved on, so did they.
Maybe, I think people still “know” its going on, but they forget by the allure of our smart phones, so this is a good reminder.
Why stop at phones? Practically every car made today has a 4g modem and gps module onboard.
