I’ve been looking around for a scripting language that:
- has a cli interpreter
- is a “general purpose” language (yes, awk is touring complete but no way I’m using that except for manipulating text)
- allows to write in a functional style (ie. it has functions like map, fold, etc and allows to pass functions around as arguments)
- has a small disk footprint
- has decent documentation (doesn’t need to be great: I can figure out most things, but I don’t want to have to look at the interpter source code to do so)
- has a simple/straightforward setup (ideally, it should be a single executable that I can just copy to a remote system, use to run a script and then delete)
Do you know of something that would fit the bill?
Here’s a use case (the one I run into today, but this is a recurring thing for me).
For my homelab I need (well, want) to generate a luhn mod n check digit (it’s for my provisioning scripts to generate synchting device ids from their certificates).
I couldn’t find ready-made utilities for this and I might actually need might a variation of the “official” algorithm (IIUC syncthing had a bug in their initial implementation and decided to run with it).
I don’t have python (or even bash) available in all my systems, and so my goto language for script is usually sh (yes, posix sh), which in all honestly is quite frustrating for manipulating data.
If you can, just use Perl. Probably installed on your systems, even the ones without python.
So often the right answer, perl. It’s a shame that it’s so unfashionable these days.
I can’t really think of anything that’s less frustrating than sh and ticks all your boxes. You can try TCL but it’s bound to be a shit show. It was painful to use two decades ago.
Perl is a step up in terms of developer comfort, but it’s at the same time too big and too awkward to use.
Maybe a statically linked Python?
I was thinking about recommending TCL as a joke. My favorite thing about it is it’s “whimsicly typed.”
Perl is a step up in terms of developer comfort, but it’s at the same time too big and too awkward to use.
How do you mean?
It’s already on nearly every distro, so there’s no core size unless you lean into modules. The scripts aren’t exactly big either.
He doesn’t have bash. I’m not sure I’ve seen a system this millennium with Perl but not bash.
Try it now - type perl. It’s a dependency on a huge amount of core system tools.
OP is on OpenWRT (a router distro), and Alpine. Those distros don’t come with very much by default, and perl is not a core dependency for any of their default tools. Neither is python.
Based on the way the cosmo project has statically linked builds of python, but not perl, I’m guessing it’s more difficult to create a statically linked perl. This means that it’s more difficult to put perl on a system where it isn’t already there, and that system doesn’t have a package manager*, than python or other options.
*or the the user doesn’t want to use a package manager. OP said they just want to copy a binary around. Can you do that with perl?
Why aren’t python and bash be available in all your systems? Which languages would be?
I would’ve recommended python, otherwise perl or Haskell (maybe Haskell’s too big) or something, but now I’m worried that whatever reason makes python undoable also makes perl etc. undoable
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I mean, it’s a functional programming language and an incredibly good one. But it probably has a far too big footprint for their use-case…
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Why aren’t python and bash be available in all your systems?
Among others, I run stuff on alpine and openwrt.
I don’t need to run these scripts everywhere (strictly speaking, I don’t need the homlab at all), but I was wondering if there’s something that I can adopt as a default goto solution without having to worry about how each system is packaged/configured.
As for python, I doubt the full version would fit in my router plus as said I don’t want to deal with libraries/virtualenvs/… and (in the future) with which distro comes with python3 vs pyton4 (2 vs 3 was enough). Openwrt does have smaller python packages, but then I would be using different implementations on different systems: again something I’d rather not deal with.
As for perl, it would be small enough, but I find it a bit archaic/esoteric (prejudice, I know), plus again I don’t want to deal with how every distro decides to package the different things (eg. openwrt has some 40+ packages for perl - if I were doing serious development that would be ok, but I don’t want to worry about that for just some scripts).
Sounds like you want MicroPython. It’s definitely available on OpenWrt and AlpineLinux and has a very small footprint.
If you don’t like Python, have a look at Lua/luajit.
Is compiling scripts an option? Aka compiling them in C, C++, Rust, whatever for your router on another machine, and copying and executing those binaries on your router?
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if there’s something that I can adopt as a default goto solution without having to worry about how each system is packaged/configured.
Go is probably your best bet. Simple to use, and you can compile it so it runs everywhere
I found installing Go-sdk a total PiTA. It is okay as a developer environment. But bash + gnu utils + core utils seem much more sane to me.
Of course I mostly work with Linux systems and hardly ever have to deal with Scripting for Windoze.
guile scheme or Julia
Neither of them seem to be a single file, and both seem to have several dependencies, at least that’s the case with the Homebrew versions.
Micropython.
That does seem to be just one, maybe two small files, and no dependencies. And a built in map() function.
@gomp I like TypeScript.
I used Python for 15 years or so until they changed from v2 to v3. At that point I realised I couldn’t understand my old code because it lacked types, so I got discouraged with that. So rather than learn v3 I stopped using it.
Perl is a disaster. sh is good for shell scripts but let’s not stretch it.
TypeScript can use all the JS libraries and runs on node which is supported by all sorts of platforms. Yes there are a few holes in the type safety, so don’t do that.
The internet is full of “how to do X in JS”. You can read them and add the types you need.
Maybe something like Elvish or Nushell could be worth a look. They have a lot of similarities to classic shells like bash, but an improved syntax and more powerful features. Basically something in between bash and Python. Not sure about disk footprint or general availability/portability though
What about Lua/Luajit?
In most scripting languages you have the interpreter binary and the (standard) libraries as separate files. But creating self-extracting executables, that clean up after themselves can easily be done by wrapping them in a shell script.
IMO, if low dependencies and small size is really important, you could also just write your script in a low level compiled language (C, Rust, Zig, …), link it statically (e.g. with musl) and execute that.
I use Lua for this sort of thing. Not my favorite language, but it works well for it. Easy to build for any system in the last 20-30 years, and probably the next 20 too. The executable is small so you can just redistribute it or stick it in version control.
perl might be on all your systems. It’s kind-of a legacy, but still actively developed. It’s not a great language: it looks like bash scripting on steroids. But if you just need to write some small scripts with a language more powerful than awk or bash, it does the job. If perl isn’t on all of your systems already, then I would choose a better scripting language.
TBH I don’t even use awk that much, even that is plenty powerful for my needs. Perl absolutely blows my mind with how needlessly complex I can make stuff with it
Everyone always dunkin’ on Perl, but I can’t even tell you how often it’s been the best tool for the job. Like, at least 3
A scripting language written in Rust would certainly fulfill you requirement of only needing to copy one file since they are always statically linked and you can even statically compile against musl so it will work on any Linux system without needing a correct libc. Maybe check out rhai.
JavaScript through Node.js, or TypeScript through Deno if you like typed languages. They both check all your boxes (just check the size of the executables to make sure that it’s what you would consider “small footprint”).
Both languages and runtimes are quite popular, so you will find any answers on StackOverflow.
They are both single-executable with little dependencies, and Deno can also compile your scripts to self-contained executables.
As a bonus, both support the vast and extensive NPM package repository where you can find all sort of libraries for even the most complex tasks.
And they work with your favourite IDE or editor, not just syntax highlighting, but also contextual suggestions.
Installing node uses some 60MB (according to zypper on my current desktop). I’d rather have something small and possibly that consists of a single executable.
As a bonus, both support the vast and extensive NPM package repository
That’s not necessarily a feature :) Package repos are great if you are a developer (I am one) working primarily with that language, but are frustrating if you just want to run things.
As a Java developer, and someone who never learned Python or other scripting languages, Node is my go-to scripting language. I’ve only come around to it for that in the past year or two. But it’s great.
English
Let alone the reliability, I somehow doubt my router would be able to run an LLM :)
It is possible to wrap something like python into a single file, which is extracted (using standard shell tools) into a tmpdir at runtime.
You might also consider languages that can compile to static binaries - something like nim (python like syntax), although you could also make use of nimscript. Imagine nimscript as your own extensible interpreter.
Similarly, golang has some extensible scripting languages like https://github.com/traefik/yaegi - go has the advantage of easy cross compiling if you need to support different machine architectures.
luajitis small, fast(well, it can jit), and has a small but complete standard library and can do FFI pretty easily, should be ideal for most homelab usecaseldd $(which luajit) linux-vdso.so.1 (0x00007ffee9dc7000) libm.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so.6 (0x00007fb4db618000) libdl.so.2 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdl.so.2 (0x00007fb4db613000) libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x00007fb4db5f3000) libc.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 (0x00007fb4db3ca000) /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007fb4db799000)Bro seriously just slap pyenv + pyenv-virtualenv on your systems and you’re good to go. They’re absolutely trivial to install. Iirc the latter is not a thing in windows, but if you’re stuck on windows for some reason and doing any serious scripting, you should be using WSL anyways.
