Legislation that Gov. JB Pritzker signed into law this month bans physical punishment in private schools while reiterating a prohibition on the practice in public schools implemented 30 years ago.
In schools? How is this even still an open question? I thought the debate had at least moved on to whether parents should be allowed to hurt their children, even in the US.
It was banned in public schools 30 years ago, this extends the ban to private schools
Not in every state.
In school and 99% of scenarios, physicality doesn’t do any good. But if you have a really young child, like 3-5, and they hurt another child or an animal and show no remorse, I think spanking is acceptable as a punishment immediately after the incident. They might have trouble with developing empathy and need to understand they hurt another being.
The answer to a child showing such violent tendencies is therapy, not causing them pain.
In school and 99% of scenarios, physicality doesn’t do any good. But if you have a really young child, like 3-5…
You think violence against children is only acceptable if you’re beating a toddler? That’s a really weird conclusion to reach…
I think spanking is acceptable as a punishment immediately after the incident.
Because you’re a shit parent who doesn’t know how to raise a child without resorting to violence. The evidence overwhelmingly shows that negative reinforcement is the worst way to discipline a child. If you think it works, you’re wrong.
They might have trouble with developing empathy and need to understand they hurt another being.
You’re teaching them, by example, to use violence. You’re the parent. Be a role model. How can you possibly think you can use violence to teach that violence is wrong?
How does their adult role model hitting them not just teach them that hitting is socially acceptable?
Teaching this to a kid without empathy seems like the worst imaginable circumstance lol.
And I sure as hell don’t want someone other than the parents ever making that decision.
This is the same logic given for school aged children to not fight back against bullies for decades, and bullying is now a huge problem.
I’m talking about a situation where your own child is exhibiting bullying characteristics at a very young age. You can’t sit them down and explain why pulling their sibling’s hair shouldn’t give them gratification…they still want to do it. Just when you’re not around. The consequences have to be emotionally driven, and something they can understand and feel even when an adult is not present. What’s your alternative? Timeout? Take a toy away?
I had a brother who tormented me for many years. My parents tried various things, and nothing worked. The thing that did work was me hitting him in the face with a metal belt when I was like ten when he physically attacked me for the millionth time. He just name-called after that, never touched me.
Obviously an adult is not going to do something like that. But how do you correct a very young child who is exhibiting signs that they are growing into a bully?
This is the same logic given for school aged children to not fight back against bullies for decades, and bullying is now a huge problem.
So you literally want to teach your kid to be violent? You’re staying very far from “teaching empathy” with this one…
I’m talking about a situation where your own child is exhibiting bullying characteristics at a very young age.
Yeah, those kids usually have violent parents. Of course you think this is a problem to be solved with violence. Too bad you haven’t figured out yet that you’re the reason your kid is violent.
You can’t sit them down and explain why pulling their sibling’s hair shouldn’t give them gratification…
You literally can. You just have no patience to talk to your kids, and use violence instead.
But how do you correct a very young child who is exhibiting signs that they are growing into a bully?
By not being the parent that normalizes violence as a solution to problems.
No it’s not the same logic. Someone in power hitting someone teaches kids that it is acceptable to use physical violence to get your way, this encourages the child to do even more violence. A victim fighting back against their bully is self defence, it is a different situation completely. I support training victimized kids to fight and stand up for themselves, I don’t support allowing adults to hit kids as punitive measures.
There’s no easy answer to the situation you describe, but the evidence overwhelmingly demonstrates that corporal punishment makes things worse, not better. Self defence against a bully is a completely different situation.
I like how america is slowly making it into the XIX c. Well done america!
I’m sure whatever country you’re from has fully rejected out-of-date ideas.
Fucking hell, how is this still legal in 45 other states???
We have a long way to go
I’m not a violent person. I’ve never been in a fight, let alone in jail for assault. If some school official did that shit to my daughter, it would be my first time for both.
TIL… what the fuck. This shit has been illegal Canada wide for generations now, I honestly thought this article was from the past…
Wait…is the modern day US from the past? Was there some sort of time loop?
It would explain alot
Nope, it’s still legal to spank children in Canada. As long as the force used does not exceed what is considered reasonable under the circumstances. Linked article
Personal anecdote: when I was in 3rd grade in the early 2000s, there was a student in class that had major behavioural issues and would act out all the time. I had witnessed an incident in class which the student was acting out in front of the teacher, which eventually escalated to the point where he started throwing his desk around and threw his chair at her. After the teacher returned to class a few days later, she had disclosed to the whole class that she had a signed permission form by the student’s parents authorizing her to use force on the student.
Wait till you find out how often the state executes harmless restrained prisoners in modern day US.
Barely ever?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_executed_in_the_United_States_in_2023
24 last year is still too many but it’s not like this happens a lot
How many is a lot to you?? Like are you sure this isn’t copium??
How many is a lot to you??
More than 24 a year in a country with a population of 300 million
Like are you sure this isn’t copium??
Idk what that is. If you’re implying I think that 24 is ok, I don’t. 1 is too many. It can be too many and a small number at the same time.
Oh… I really thought that meanwhile that number was lower… Like significantly lower, like 2 to 3 people.
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Gotta make sure the kids stay in line so you can get them to work. Don’t forget how many child labor laws have been loosened or removed by conservative states
Right? I’m often shocked by what is still legal, like the number of states that allow an adult to marry a child.
It’s frustrating how long it takes the legal system to catch up. I experienced corporal punishment in public school. It’s a barbaric and weird practice.
Barbaric, weird, and ineffective. It doesn’t actually address what is causing the behavioral issue. It only punishes the kid for reacting normally to whatever stimuli they are experiencing. It’s especially frustrating when the fix would have been something simple like listening to the kid’s concerns or trying to have a conversation with them to address the root problem.
Like everything else in this country.
The Cruelty is the Point
I was unaware it was still legal until this.
Cuz of little shits? You know how they say Karens are Karens cuz they never had consequences?
Can you imagine being unable to communicate with a child without having the option of hitting them?
Why do you think, “if you do something I disapprove of, I will cause you pain,” is a good lesson to teach a child? When a child does that to another child, it’s called bullying.
It is entirely possible to give children consequences without hitting them, you lack imagination if the only way you can envision giving a child consequences is to hit them.
There’s a difference between fear and respect. A child should NEVER fear the adult providing their care.
I would actually wager decent money that many of those little shits have been smacked around quite a lot. They learn to react how they were taught by demonstration. If mistakes are met with violence and aggression, then they learn to do the same to others.
I know a teacher who (unofficially) specialises in kids like those. They are hell on a new teacher. However, once they realise that they are not met with aggression, the veneer cracks. The young scared child realises that there is an adult they both cares and shouldn’t be feared. Very soon, just the idea that they might disappoint her is a far better motivator than any punishment could be.
Yes! This is the exact approach a good teacher takes with students who struggle with behavioral norms. There is a reason they are doing what they’re doing. They are reacting to adults the way they have been trained to react by other, shittier adults.
Once they trust you as a person who actually cares, they seem to become a whole new person. They are no longer scared to be vulnerable in front of you. It’s a sacred level of respect that teachers and/or mentor adults need to take very seriously.
I used to be the person who specializes in working with students who struggle with behavioral problems, and I can 100% assure you that exposure to violence from or among adults they are around is what led them to my classrom.
Christian (conservative) values do not differentiate between fear and respect. Preachers harp on their equivalence at the pulpit on a regular basis. They are taught by their respected authority figures that to fear is to respect, and they reinforce those values in their children. It’s no wonder that authority figures in communities that hold these values are some of the most abusive.
They worship a being that kills everyone who doesn’t do what he tells them to and tortures people forever for not believing in him when he is actively hiding from them. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree in that religion.
Here’s a crazy idea. Every time you wanna spank a kid, don’t. Spank that kid’s parents instead.
I was threatened with spanking once in the 9th grade.
I told the principal that it would take more than him to do it. He called my dad. Dad laughed in his face and told him to try me on. Then hung up.
I ended up with a week of ISS.
INB4: I know this sounds like a greentext. I’ve been telling this story for 20 fkin years.
Ahhh ISS. The truest of punishments. We had to help the janitors as part of ISS. Good luck catching up on missed schoolwork at home despite being in school all day, all while watching your friends have fun while you empty the next trash can.
What is ISS?
In School Suspension
Heres my argument against hitting kids. Mississippi loves it, cant get enough of it. Every ailment of society is caused by kids not getting hit enough, and they wear their past of childhood violence as their biggest badge of honor. Hitting kids is how you get Mississippians.
"Mississippi ranks 39th in violent crime among all states and has the third-lowest violent crime rate in the South. "
Is it … working?
Or they ain’t so gud at countin’.
So I started actually looking up numbers and they indeed look good from certain sources, but I’m still giving them the side eye. For instance, the CDC shows Mississippi as having the #1 murder rate among the states in 2022.
Mississippi is the poorest state in the US, with a poverty rate of 18.7%, followed by Louisiana as the second poorest state, with a poverty rate of 17.8%, and New Mexico, as the third poorest state in the US, at a poverty rate of 16.8%.
I don’t know, is it?
Is the point of hitting children to reduce violent crime? I have a feeling there are better ways. Maybe we should work on getting rid of microplastics.
Violent crime in rural areas is dramatically underreported because cops don’t even take reports for domestic violence unless it requires an ambulance ride.
This is overreacting. I was beat as a child and I only need minimal therapy now.
There was a time when corporal punishment was actively encouraged - Spare the rod and spoil the child.
I think I saw a list of states that still allow this just today.
This issue is one of the only debates in the world that I don’t have a strong stance about. How the hell do you balance the fact that the kids are evil little (or large) monsters in desperate need of discipline with the fact that the ones passing judgement on them are no better?
First, kids are kids. They’re chaotic, and almost never actually evil. It is better to think of them as wild animals.
Second, who said the ones passing judgment are no better? It sounds like your opinion, not supported by fact.
Teaching a child “I will hurt you if you don’t do what I want” is called bullying. That’s why we stop children doing it to other children.
It teaches them nothing but to fear you and possibly to pass that idea that children should fear their parents on to their own children.
But but but . . . hitting solves problems!
Just ask the guy who invented it . . . Hitler.
(I’ll show myself out)
The thumbnail made me think this was about hitting children with busses, glad to see that’s already illegal
hitting children with busses, glad to see that’s already illegal
…for now.
I thought it was going to be a !fuck_cars@lemmy.ml post, until I reached the corporeal punishment part.
What’s wrong with physical punishment? My dad hit me and I turned out fine after just a decade of therapy.
Careful now, I got in trouble yesterday for not putting a
/son my sarcasm.The
after just a decade of therapy.
does wonders.
Being sarcastic about damn near everything works for me.
This is the way.
Not gonna lie, they had us in the first half.
We had “optional” corporal punishment.
You could choose swats with a paddle, or writing sentences over and over.
Most people took swats, but I just picked sentences and never did them. They’d double the amount a couple times and eventually stop asking for them.
But absolutely zero boys gave a shit about taking swats, it was no deterrent what so ever. Even knowing that there was an easy way out of the alternative, they’d just take swats and immediately forget it happened.
If anything it made behavior worse, because they could do whatever and then have a few seconds of discomfort later if and only if they were caught doing the bad thing.
Im sure you have sources right? Would you share them so we can all spread the word?
We’ll. Unless you want me to call up my middle school gym teacher I dont really know what you want me to do here champ…
But part of that is because you replied to a long comment asking for a source without mentioning what you were talking about.
Even then, looking at my entire comment I have absolutely zero idea what the fuck you’re asking for here.
Ah dammit. I replied to the wrong comment, sorry.
I was looking for the one that says men mostly love hitting girls for sexual reasons and girls have a much higher pain tolerance. Or something to that tune.
I had heard from a guy from singapore that many young men had the idea around the canning that they could do that standing on their head kind of thing.
I don’t think that guy could take a Singapore caning and remain conscious, much less standing.
But absolutely zero boys gave a shit about taking swats
Great time to remind everyone that the adult men who administer corporal punishment in schools do in fact take great pleasure in spanking teenage girls, and that girls opt-out of it more than boys because they know it will border on sexual assault.
Girls have a higher pain tolerance than boys. They just know the horrific implications of being alone in a room with an older man who has authority and permission to use violence.
Girls have a higher pain tolerance than boys.
Sounds like the sort of thing a doctor says while explaining himself at an inquisition.
I’m seeing conflicting research on a cursory look.
Oh yeah, I think girls didn’t even have the option.
I dont know if the girls gym teacher just wouldn’t do it, or if none of them picked it, but none of them got swats.
But almost every gym class there was a line of boys waiting.
spanking teenage girls
This is a thing that happens?
Just ask current Auburn University head football coach Hugh Freeze.
Well that was disgusting.
It’s okay. He said he loves Jesus. We’re all fine!!!
At my school, the principal wasn’t allowed to paddle girls. Only boys.
I don’t know who made that rule but I can imagine why.
Im sure you have sources right? Would you share them so we can all spread the word?
What do you need a source on? I am not that poster but I am a professional dominatrix and I will vouch that women, including transwomen, tend to have much higher pain tolerance than men. This is pretty well known in BDSM. Note that doesn’t mean women don’t feel the pain - they definitely do. They can just take a lot more pain and for a lot longer time than most men.
As to the other part - duh. It’s pretty obvious a teacher would use any excuse at physical touch as an opportunity to assault a student if he was so inclined. That’s how most predators operate, who get away with it - in the realm of plausible deniability. Predators are always looking for that wiggle room that gives them space to assault while simultaneously denying it. It’s why they prey on children in the first place.
